Soooo, this thread raises some really interesting questions about how cards which have been discarded should be interpreted:

• Bombs - these clearly reference text on the cards after discard, in particular dial bombs. Nothing on the reference card for dial bombs indicate when they detonate, and action bombs only have allusions to when they detonate, not explicit instructions, so either the token somehow inherits the card text, or the card text is referenced even after discard. Discarded cards keep working even after discard. Probably even after ship death. Or their tokens inherit their text maybe?
• Cloaking Device - email responses to questions regarding what happens when this is discarded (via Boba crew or Cikatro Vizago) suggest that the text on it is explicitly NOT referenced any longer, and the cloak token remains intact risk free until such time as the ship chooses to decloak. Discarded cards stop working, even if tokens they produced are still in play.
• R2-D6 and other 'add a slot' cards - these are held up as not being reference at any point during the game, only in list building, so you can safely discard them without causing problems; their text is no longer relevant after list building. Discarded cards keep working/in some cases their discard doesn't matter as they have one off effects which have already happened.
• Engine Upgrade and other 'add an action to your bar' cards - these however, when discarded via Boba (or via Burnout SLAM, for instance) DO stop working, despite the fact that they add a symbol to a different card, and thus by the R2-D6 precedent, should continue to work even once discarded, because their text is only referred to at list building. Discarded cards stop working even if they have one off effects that have already happened.
• Weapons Malfunction - this implies that discarded secondary weapons no longer have any effect, as does the Outrider title. Discarded cards stop working.
• Marksmanship/Rage - these set up a pseudo-condition that gives and effect for a given duration. When discarded, the effect continues, despite the cards no longer being in play. Discarded card text can be referenced even after the card has been discarded.
• Discardable munitions, EPTs etc - these pretty clearly stop working once discarded - or maybe you just can't follow their instructions once they're discarded, so it doesn't matter. Discarded cards stop working. Or maybe just discarded cards can't be discarded again unless they're re-equipped e.g. by Tomax and this precedent doesn't have any impact, because their instructions can only be followed if they're NOT already discarded.
• Jabba the Hutt - (ignoring the obvious error that makes his tokens only work on the ship he's equipped to) the only place his tokens have to refer to for their rules, is his card - so... how is it supposed to work when he dies? DO the tokens keep working, like bombs, R2-D6, Marksmanship etc would imply? Or do they stop working, like Engine Upgrade, Cloaking Device, and many if not most other things in the game would imply? Discarded card text... ???

This is kind of a mess, RAW-wise.

What do the knowledgeable folks of Rules Questions think? Are my various interpretations here correct, or have I missed/misremembered FAQ/email rulings on them? Are they in different categories somehow and it all makes sense for that reason? Have I missed any examples of places where discarded cards work differently? How should Jabba work? Is there adequate precedent in either direction to provide an answer without being FFG and just arbitrarily deciding? Do the questions raised by Jabba have any impact on prior rulings? When will Jabba be fixed by errata so that his tokens even CAN work for other ships?

Does my bum look big in this?

IS THE SKY FALLING?!

(no to the last couple, obvs)

Every card text is no longer active when the card is discarded.

• Bombs - these clearly reference text on the cards after discard, in particular dial bombs. Nothing on the reference card for dial bombs indicate when they detonate, and action bombs only have allusions to when they detonate, not explicit instructions, so either the token somehow inherits the card text, or the card text is referenced even after discard. Discarded cards keep working even after discard. Probably even after ship death. Or their tokens inherit their text maybe?

Token bombs are described in the reference cards. That's why they exist, so tokens are active even if the card is discarded. Discarded bomb cards don't keep working when discarded.

• Cloaking Device - email responses to questions regarding what happens when this is discarded (via Boba crew or Cikatro Vizago) suggest that the text on it is explicitly NOT referenced any longer, and the cloak token remains intact risk free until such time as the ship chooses to decloak. Discarded cards stop working, even if tokens they produced are still in play.

This is correct.

• R2-D6 and other 'add a slot' cards - these are held up as not being reference at any point during the game, only in list building, so you can safely discard them without causing problems; their text is no longer relevant after list building. Discarded cards keep working/in some cases their discard doesn't matter as they have one off effects which have already happened.

The text is no longer active, but you only check if a ship can have a specific upgrade during squad building, not during a game.

• Engine Upgrade and other 'add an action to your bar' cards - these however, when discarded via Boba (or via Burnout SLAM, for instance) DO stop working, despite the fact that they add a symbol to a different card, and thus by the R2-D6 precedent, should continue to work even once discarded, because their text is only referred to at list building. Discarded cards stop working even if they have one off effects that have already happened.

Correct

• Weapons Malfunction - this implies that discarded secondary weapons no longer have any effect, as does the Outrider title. Discarded cards stop working.

Correct too (i think this text should be red?)

• Marksmanship/Rage - these set up a pseudo-condition that gives and effect for a given duration. When discarded, the effect continues, despite the cards no longer being in play. Discarded card text can be referenced even after the card has been discarded.

The card text is no longer active, but the ability that has been previously resolved is. As any other effect does.

• Discardable munitions, EPTs etc - these pretty clearly stop working once discarded - or maybe you just can't follow their instructions once they're discarded, so it doesn't matter. Discarded cards stop working. Or maybe just discarded cards can't be discarded again unless they're re-equipped e.g. by Tomax and this precedent doesn't have any impact, because their instructions can only be followed if they're NOT discarded.

Discarded card text is ignored. If you manage to bring that card back to the ship, the text is no longer ignored. It has nothing to do with the fact that it has been discarded before, it only matters if it is equipped at the time you want to resolve the card ability.

• Jabba the Hutt - (ignoring the obvious error that makes his tokens only work on the ship he's equipped to) the only place his tokens have to refer to for their rules, is his card - so... how is it supposed to work when he dies? DO the tokens keep working, like bombs, R2-D6, Marksmanship etc would imply? Or do they stop working, like Engine Upgrade, Cloaking Device, and many if not most other things in the game would imply? Discarded card text... ???

If illicit tokens don't come with a reference card, since the place where what they do is no longer active, they do nothing if Jabba is discarded.

20 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This is kind of a mess, RAW-wise.

Honestly, I don't see the issue here. A bomb token has the pending detonation effect in exactly the same way Rage and Marksmanship do – it just has an 'until used' timer, rather than a 'until end of turn' one. It is quite possible for an effect to modify when a bomb explodes and have two bombs from the same card following different timing rules (no such card actually exists). Beyond that, cards have no effect when they're out of play (discarded). This all seems perfectly consistent, even if some of the abilities are oddly, or even badly, worded.

As to why Jabba wasn't errata'd in the last set up updates... urgh. Couldn't say, but it seems an insane oversight.

1 minute ago, InquisitorM said:

Honestly, I don't see the issue here. A bomb token has the pending detonation effect in exactly the same way Rage and Marksmanship do – it just has an 'until used' timer, rather than a 'until end of turn' one. It is quite possible for an effect to modify when a bomb explodes and have two bombs from the same card following different timing rules (no such card actually exists).

As to why Jabba wasn't errata'd in the last set up updates... urgh. Couldn't say, but it seems an insane oversight.

Yeah, that's one way to look at it I guess.

I'm really irked they didn't FAQ Jabba day 1. It's not like they didn't have a chance to find out about the issue, it was pointed out within minutes of the preview going live.

Discarded Cards no longer have any effect on the game. Willy does a wonderful job explaining this.

Tokens: These still work when they are described by OTHER sources (bombs and such) but will become USELESS (Extra Munitions tokens, Jabba) in cases where the tokens are DIRECTLY tied to their upgrade card.

Effects: If an ability has been activated then it is still active. You can look at R2-D6 has having an ability that is "activated" during squad creation but then has no defined endpoint.

The illicit Cloaking Device is actually an interesting study. Using it give a ship a Cloak token which has game rules beyond the upgrade card. The upgrade itself actually has abilities which tell you there may be times you have to discard it and what happens with the Cloak token when the card tells you it needs to discard itself; if the card is removed some other way all of the text on the card becomes unimportant.

14 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Soooo, this thread raises some really interesting questions about how cards which have been discarded should be interpreted:

• Bombs - these clearly reference text on the cards after discard, in particular dial bombs. Nothing on the reference card for dial bombs indicate when they detonate, and action bombs only have allusions to when they detonate, not explicit instructions, so either the token somehow inherits the card text, or the card text is referenced even after discard. Discarded cards keep working even after discard. Probably even after ship death. Or their tokens inherit their text maybe?

ALL bombs have their detonation timing on the bomb's card , so it doesn't need to be on the reference card as well. They either detonate at the end of the Activation phase, or when a ship or ship's maneuver template overlaps it. The reference card merely tells you what happens when they detonate.

It's not a matter of a discarded card still working. It's the token that's been placed that's still working. It's up to the player to remember when they go off, then check the reference card for the effect.

On 6/21/2017 at 7:49 AM, Parravon said:

It's not a matter of a discarded card still working. It's the token that's been placed that's still working. It's up to the player to remember when they go off, then check the reference card for the effect

And this goes against @Willy Jarque and @StevenO 's argument. If we consider that the player can remember when a bomb token go off, then why not remembering what a Jabba/Extra Munition token do?

12 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

And this goes against @Willy Jarque and @StevenO 's argument. If we consider that the player can remember when a bomb token go off, then why not remembering what a Jabba/Extra Munition token do?

Good thinking, but probably not an issue. The question, I think, is exactly what rules are bestowed upon the token when it is placed.

For bomb tokens, this is either 'detonates at the end of the activation phase', or 'detonates when a ship or maneuver template overlaps it', 'this token detonates'. Then we have a rules reference card to tell us what happens next. For an illicit or munitions token, however, what is the rule being imparted?

Quote

When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

That's an outside effect acting on the token. If it were parallel in effect, the token would have been imparted the ability to discarding itself in the same way that bomb tokens to – with 'this' being used as self-referential.

Now, it's not a bad bet to assume that the difference is solely due to Extra Munitions dealing with multiple tokens and that they are meant to be the same, but we have a 'that's not what it says on the card' situation, and guessing at card intent doesn't do us much good until we're limited on plausible options.

I would think that the multiplicity of the tokens and the imprecision of the English language makes " you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead" clearer than "you may it instead". Shouldn't we consider the whole card as the definer of the token? As if it was a single statement trying to be clear?

3 hours ago, NilsTillander said:

I would think that the multiplicity of the tokens and the imprecision of the English language makes " you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead" clearer than "you may it instead". Shouldn't we consider the whole card as the definer of the token? As if it was a single statement trying to be clear?

We shouldn't consider anything to be anything else without a reason to do so. Do you have a reason to do so?

5 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

We should consider anything to b anything else without a reason to do so. Do you have a reason to do so?

I makes sense? I know, that's very RAI, not so RAW, but there's no specific RAW (just inference from lacking RAW), so....

If I ever actually play Jabba/EM, I'll play them like apparent RAI. There is no competitive scene in Norway anyways, so no pesky TO to ruin my game

Exactly as Inquisitor said, the bomb self reference themself in the trigger / detonate condition. Extra munition do not. An example of Extra munition that would make it persist:

"When you are instructed to discard the card on which is this token, you may discard this token instead." A weird sentence to read that make it persistent.

But as always they could have just started their game with proper templating base on what already exist... anyway... this is just ranting.

As I've noted many times before the obvious way to have handled EM would have been to just make a reference card for munitions tokens, thus both making it clear what would happen if the source of the tokens was removed (they'd keep working because they have an external reference to explain them) and allowing them to be a universal mechanic accessible by any future upgrade which might need to use them (such as Jabba, but also potentially a fix for future ordnance ships giving access to cheaper EM tokens, or a multi-use weapon that started with 3 tokens and discarded itself with each firing or... etc).

5 hours ago, NilsTillander said:

On 6/21/2017 at 0:49 AM, Parravon said:

It's not a matter of a discarded card still working. It's the token that's been placed that's still working. It's up to the player to remember when they go off, then check the reference card for the effect

And this goes against @Willy Jarque and @StevenO 's argument. If we consider that the player can remember when a bomb token go off, then why not remembering what a Jabba/Extra Munition token do?

It does and is slightly incorrect. Some tokens DO have game rules that will persist and those tokens are defined outside of the upgrade card that produced the token. Other tokens are completely dependent upon their source upgrade and without the upgrade saying what they do they do nothing.

13 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Some tokens DO have game rules that will persist and those tokens are defined outside of the upgrade card that produced the token.

The point here is that bomb tokens are only partially described in the reference cards, and without the bomb upgrade card, no way to know when they should detonate (but we know what happens when they do with the reference card).

I do agree that they should have made a "double use" token that both EM and Jabba would grant to different type of upgrades and have a ref card for them : clearer and less stupid tokens to go unused most of the time.

Man, you guys are just going way out of your way to find problems huh? There's not any actual confusion about how any of this works is there? Why are we going out of our way to try and nitpick something that doesn't matter?

40 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

Man, you guys are just going way out of your way to find problems huh? There's not any actual confusion about how any of this works is there? Why are we going out of our way to try and nitpick something that doesn't matter?

Because we're looking for precedent to work out how Jabba is supposed to work. He's the point of actual confusion/debate.

Then someone should specifically ask about Jabba.

If Jabba gets removed from the board then the tokens he passed out do nothing.

Had Extra Munitions come out with some kind of game defined token which allowed the token to be discarded instead of the card beneath it that would have been fine but that is not what happened. Instead you have a token that is completely defined by the upgrade card that produced it yet without that upgrade card the token does nothing.

14 hours ago, NilsTillander said:

The point here is that bomb tokens are only partially described in the reference cards, and without the bomb upgrade card, no way to know when they should detonate (but we know what happens when they do with the reference card).

It's really not as hard as you're making it sound. When an upgrade card tells you to discard it , it doesn't mean put it in a shredder or destroy it. You can still reference the card for timings. It's not like discarding it means you can no longer look at the text.

So there's no such thing as " no way to know when they should detonate ", is there?

2 hours ago, Parravon said:

It's really not as hard as you're making it sound. When an upgrade card tells you to discard it , it doesn't mean put it in a shredder or destroy it. You can still reference the card for timings. It's not like discarding it means you can no longer look at the text.

So there's no such thing as " no way to know when they should detonate ", is there?

I completely agree with that, and I have since the beginning of this whole argument : I don't think that the face up, in-game presence of the card is necessary for tokens to work. However, some argue that if the card that defined the tokens isn't there anymore, the token loose their meaning. I think it's crazy talk, but who knows what would happen in a championship?

10 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

I completely agree with that, and I have since the beginning of this whole argument : I don't think that the face up, in-game presence of the card is necessary for tokens to work. However, some argue that if the card that defined the tokens isn't there anymore, the token loose their meaning. I think it's crazy talk, but who knows what would happen in a championship?

Well, Vizago -> cloaking device is what muddied the issue. It's now known that you don't roll to 'lose' the clocking device each turn if the cloaking device card is discarded. So the text works at one point and then doesn't work in another, even though the token is still in play. The token has its own rules because cloaking is part of the core rules, while the extra is part of the discarded card. The rules for detonating a bomb are only written on the card that gets discarded when you lay it . I find it perfectly understandable that people would see a contradiction there. It's not a bad question. I just think it has a relatively sensible answer.

3 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

Well, Vizago -> cloaking device is what muddied the issue. It's now known that you don't roll to 'lose' the clocking device each turn if the cloaking device card is discarded. So the text works at one point and then doesn't work in another, even though the token is still in play. The token has its own rules because cloaking is part of the core rules, while the extra is part of the discarded card. The rules for detonating a bomb are only written on the card that gets discarded when you lay it . I find it perfectly understandable that people would see a contradiction there. It's not a bad question. I just think it has a relatively sensible answer.

For the record, so do I, I just don't think it's a *consistent* answer (i.e. the rules treat things differently that could trivially have been written so the rules treated them the same way, but weren't written that way) and that bothers me. In general, and in the specific cases where we know what a thing does, and we think we know how it's mean to work, but we have to wait for FAQ to be sure.

I mean, Jabba doesn't seem likely to exactly light up the meta, but I wanna get him on the table at least once, and when I do, I want to know how he's *supposed* to work, rather than assuming how *I think* he should work and having to agree that with my opponents. I want there to be clarity, rather than the current lack thereof.

Oh god yes, but FFG.... eh. You know.

On 6/20/2017 at 8:27 AM, Willy Jarque said:

If illicit tokens don't come with a reference card, since the place where what they do is no longer active, they do nothing if Jabba is discarded.

Illicit tokens do not come with a reference card. But that's because they don't come in a small ship. They instead come with a rules pamphlet.

In that pamphlet, under New Rules, it says that they follow the rules on the Jabba the Hutt card. Whether Jabba is in the game or not, the rules for illicit tokens reference his card text.

Sorry for the necromancy, this this came up elsewhere.

On 27/06/2017 at 8:21 PM, skotothalamos said:

In that pamphlet, under New Rules, it says that they follow the rules on the Jabba the Hutt card.

Do you have the exact text anywhere? This is the first time I've heard it mentioned.