If you are using Merchant One with Jabba the Hutt and Azmorigan, if you use Azmorigan to get rid of Jabba and put in some other crew card, do you keep the illicit tokens, and can you put in 2 crew cards instead of 1, because Jabba costs 2?

First of all Azmorigan is Huge ship only so he can't be equiped on the Houndstooth.

But if you would do the same on the C-roc Azmorigan allows you to "replace a [...] card with another [...] card". It's sigular so though Jabba takes up two crew spots he is still one card.

And finally, there is a dispute that is waiting to be FAQed if the Illicit tokens can be use even if the Jabba card is removed (replaced, Boba Fett'ed, or ship just killed). I would argue that they can still be used otherwise the effect is completely nullified if Jabba is killed of first. FFG even suggested to exchange Jabba with Azmorigan in an article even if the articles are "known to make misstakes".

The argument to that is that without Jabba the writing on his card is void and therefore illicit tokens have no value... I believe they made an errata for what happens if Boba gets rid of your Extra munitions.... I can't remember what the verdict was though.

I believe with Bobe vs EM was that if Boba tried to kill EM, you could discard the token thats on EM, (That no one ever puts on it), as it is an ordinance card. But with Jabba I believe that he hasn't got anything to protect him, and as QJK has alluded to, the tokens are meaningless without Jabbas text.

In the article where they presented Jabba, they wrote about the idea of jumping him out the ship, with no further explanation.

I'm not sure what the ruling would be from a "I can put the IG-2000 title on my Tie Aggressor" kinda guy perspective, but the spirit of a token should be that once it's there, it has a defined purpose until it is used. The rule defining it is on Jabba's card, but the presence of the card in game should not influence on their value.

Just my opinion (also valid for Extra Munition).

6 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

In the article where they presented Jabba, they wrote about the idea of jumping him out the ship, with no further explanation.

I'm not sure what the ruling would be from a "I can put the IG-2000 title on my Tie Aggressor" kinda guy perspective, but the spirit of a token should be that once it's there, it has a defined purpose until it is used. The rule defining it is on Jabba's card, but the presence of the card in game should not influence on their value.

Just my opinion (also valid for Extra Munition).

OK. SO, if you use Boba Fett crew to discard my Dash's Engine Upgrade (or for that matter, Weapons Malfunction discards my HLC), I can keep using the boost action (or HLC), right?

No?

Same deal here. If Jabba's not in play, his wording is not in play, and you have nothing to tell you how the illicit tokens work.

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It's a shame FFG didn't make munitions tokens a reference card, then they could have used them as a generalised mechanic for EM, Jabba, and any other case where they wanted to be able to double something up (e.g. a pilot ability like Tomax's that lets you reuse a discard ept but only once rather than infinitely), but... sadly it was not to be. I'm picturing Jabba just saying 'add a munitions token to each [illicit] upgrade in your squad'. EM would just say 'add a munitions token to each [missile, torp and bomb] upgrade on your ship'. Etc, and the ref card would explain 'when you would discard a card with a munitions token on it, you may discard the token instead'.

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As for whether Azmorigan works on Jabba and how, there's not a clear RAW answer for that, but my inference would be yes he does, and you get to replace Jabba with a single card costing up to 5. BUt it needs FAQing (lol like we'll see an FAQ for epic).

i don't know what the answer is but i'd point to the ruling on the r2-d6 droid and IA interaction suggesting they persist, with the addition that fett/extra munitions has no raw (which is interesting given there is a ruling on the token. Removing the card has the potential to strip more ordnance than targeting a card with a token on it)

Edit: That said i'm sure ffg has been inconsistent when the consequences warrant it.

I wonder what would happen if someone took jabba all the way to the finals and then did it on live stream at worlds, what would FFG do?

Perhaps I just want to witness the chaos - _ -

Azmorigan is Huge Ship Only though. This question can come up, but only when using a C-ROC and YV-666 in Epic.

Just now, Ralgon said:

i don't know what the answer is but i'd point to the r2-d6 droid and IA interaction suggesting they persist, with the addition that fett/extra munitions has no raw (which is interesting given there is a ruling on the token. Removing the card has the potential to strip more ordnance than targeting a card with a token on it)

The tokens stay in play, I'm not arguing otherwise.

After something separate from the card in question has been equipped, taking the card away doesn't take away the separate thing - and it's possible to have a thing equipped without a slot for it to sit in, as demonstrated by the Mist Hunter title.

That doesn't change the fact that Jabba;s card is the only place you're instructed as to what to do with the tokens, and once it's not in play, you have nothing to tell you what to do with the tokens.

R2-D6 isn't analogous at all. He tells you to add a slot. So you add a slot and equip something in it. WHen he's removed, the slot goes away - but slots are only functional during list building, so so what?

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(And all this ignores that by RAW Jabba's tokens only function for the ship he's on in the first place. He'd need wording changes like this to work properly: When you equip this card, place 1 illicit token on each [illicit] Upgrade card in your squad. When you are a friendly ship is instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 illicit token on that card instead.)

2 minutes ago, BoxerlessBossk said:

Azmorigan is Huge Ship Only though. This question can come up, but only when using a C-ROC and YV-666 in Epic.

Actually this is a good point.

THere's literally no way for this to happen, the C-ROC only has two crew slots, so Azmo and Jabba can't be equipped at the same time, and Azmo only works on cards equipped to his own ship, not to ships in his squad.

Crisis kind of averted?

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Actually this is a good point.

THere's literally no way for this to happen, the C-ROC only has two crew slots, so Azmo and Jabba can't be equipped at the same time, and Azmo only works on cards equipped to his own ship, not to ships in his squad.

Crisis kind of averted?

RIP, can't believe I missed that .

Guess I must wait longer before I can watch the world burn...

Merchant One title adds a crew slot though.

Just now, BoxerlessBossk said:

Merchant One title adds a crew slot though.

Ah, crisis not averted any more.

lol, that was quick.

SAnd either way, it still needs FAQ to clarify what happens if Boba crew discards Jabba.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Ah, crisis not averted any more.

lol, that was quick.

SAnd either way, it still needs FAQ to clarify what happens if Boba crew discards Jabba.

It's more or less the same FAQ but I suppose we'll find out eventually.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Actually this is a good point.

THere's literally no way for this to happen, the C-ROC only has two crew slots, so Azmo and Jabba can't be equipped at the same time, and Azmo only works on cards equipped to his own ship, not to ships in his squad.

Crisis kind of averted?

Nop, "Merchant One" gives you a third slot.

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

OK. SO, if you use Boba Fett crew to discard my Dash's Engine Upgrade (or for that matter, Weapons Malfunction discards my HLC), I can keep using the boost action (or HLC), right?

No?

Same deal here. If Jabba's not in play, his wording is not in play, and you have nothing to tell you how the illicit tokens work.

I really think that the tokens have their meaning, whatever card is in play or not. I would agree with you if there would be an other card giving THE SAME tokens with A DIFFERENT effect. Here, the spirit of the card and the tokens is "Jabba is a rich dude and gives your squad some extra stuff". The stuff is materialized by tokens to help the players remember if they used Jabba's "gifts". If Jabba dies, the gifts are still here.

And more generally, reading the spirit of the card is how we should play in my opinion, otherwise, FFG needs to FAQ so much stuff because of players trying to use wonky wording to play some wonky combo.

Just now, NilsTillander said:

Nop, "Merchant One" gives you a third slot.

I really think that the tokens have their meaning, whatever card is in play or not. I would agree with you if there would be an other card giving THE SAME tokens with A DIFFERENT effect. Here, the spirit of the card and the tokens is "Jabba is a rich dude and gives your squad some extra stuff". The stuff is materialized by tokens to help the players remember if they used Jabba's "gifts". If Jabba dies, the gifts are still here.

And more generally, reading the spirit of the card is how we should play in my opinion, otherwise, FFG needs to FAQ so much stuff because of players trying to use wonky wording to play some wonky combo.

It makes sense from a fluff perspective and I'd be down for it (Jabba isn't that OP anyway, give him this) however I know some rule lawyers that would flip if I tried to pull that stunt

8 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

Nop, "Merchant One" gives you a third slot.

I really think that the tokens have their meaning, whatever card is in play or not. I would agree with you if there would be an other card giving THE SAME tokens with A DIFFERENT effect. Here, the spirit of the card and the tokens is "Jabba is a rich dude and gives your squad some extra stuff". The stuff is materialized by tokens to help the players remember if they used Jabba's "gifts". If Jabba dies, the gifts are still here.

And more generally, reading the spirit of the card is how we should play in my opinion, otherwise, FFG needs to FAQ so much stuff because of players trying to use wonky wording to play some wonky combo.

OK, so, to go back to my counterargument above:

25 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

OK. SO, if you use Boba Fett crew to discard my Dash's Engine Upgrade (or for that matter, Weapons Malfunction discards my HLC), I can keep using the boost action (or HLC), right?

No?

Same deal here. If Jabba's not in play, his wording is not in play, and you have nothing to tell you how the illicit tokens work.

What's your answer to this?

The fluff isn't particularly relevant, the mechanics are. If FFG wanted the tokens to work independently of Jabba, they should have written the rules to match the intention.

But they didn't.

Heck, Jabba's a vindictive a-hole, maybe he put in self-destructs on his gifts, or people are scared to use them once he's died because his heirs might take vengeance at them using something he left to them in his will or whatever.

Fluff is mutable and it's trivial to come up with justifications for why something works the way it does mechanically.

Just now, Quadjumper King said:

It makes sense from a fluff perspective and I'd be down for it (Jabba isn't that OP anyway, give him this) however I know some rule lawyers that would flip if I tried to pull that stunt

Rule lawyers, that's what I meant by "I can put the IG-2000 title on my Tie Aggressor" kinda guy . Following the rules, yes, of course we should. Using convoluted interpretation and old grammar books to show that what the rules actually mean is not what everybody understand they do is just bull in my opinion. Here, tokens have a distinctive design carrying a meaning. The card, even if not in play, can be referenced to in order to assess the meaning of the token. If I was TO, that would definitely be my rulling.

I just checked th FAQ, there isn't anything on the Extra Munition token validity either.

16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

(And all this ignores that by RAW Jabba's tokens only function for the ship he's on in the first place. He'd need wording changes like this to work properly: When you equip this card, place 1 illicit token on each [illicit] Upgrade card in your squad. When you are a friendly ship is instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 illicit token on that card instead.)

"You" refers to YOU the player. Easy enough to understand.

1 minute ago, NilsTillander said:

"You" refers to YOU the player. Easy enough to understand.

RUles reference page 2:

CARD INTERPRETATIONS

Many Ship card abilities use the word “you” to refer

to the corresponding ship. Upgrade and Damage

cards that use the word “you” refer to the ship to

which the card is assigned.

This would be literally the only time in the game that rule is broken, and they amended the errata to Palpatine to match that rule, after it was noted that the errated version by RAW only worked on the ship he was equipped on.

I'm not saying in practical play I'd stop my opponents using Jabba as obviously intended in this context (i.e. to let the illicit tokens work on all ships in the squad) but the rules should be written consistently.

I WOULD want to know RAW on how he works when he's dead or been discarded though - that's a much less cut and dried error, and it could easily be intended that he stops working when he's not in play for balance reasons.

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

OK. SO, if you use Boba Fett crew to discard my Dash's Engine Upgrade (or for that matter, Weapons Malfunction discards my HLC), I can keep using the boost action (or HLC), right?

What's your answer to this?

The card did not give you anything outside of itself. You lose the card, you loose the ability. I'm 100% ok with that, it's the idea behind this. Jabba is not the tokens, Jabba is Jabba. Putting him on a ship allows you to get the tokens, that are independent entities than the card and don't go away with him. Ruling that "no jabba"="useless tokens" is weird, and for it to be true, I would like to see a FAQ for Jabba saying "If Jabba is discarded, the tokens are discarded as well". Otherwise, they are not and can still be used.

Just now, NilsTillander said:

The card did not give you anything outside of itself. You lose the card, you loose the ability. I'm 100% ok with that, it's the idea behind this. Jabba is not the tokens, Jabba is Jabba. Putting him on a ship allows you to get the tokens, that are independent entities than the card and don't go away with him. Ruling that "no jabba"="useless tokens" is weird, and for it to be true, I would like to see a FAQ for Jabba saying "If Jabba is dedicated, the tokens are discarded as well". Otherwise, they are not and can still be used.

You said it yourself. Why does this apply to Engine Upgrade, and not to Jabba?

It's not like the tokens have any instructional text on them.

Forget that you, the player, know what's written on Jabba's card. The game doesn't, unless that card is in play. It know what's written on cards that are in play, and on reference cards. No more, no less.

Do what the card says, don't do what the card doesn't say. Unless it's in play, Jabba's card doesn't say... anything .

30 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You said it yourself. Why does this apply to Engine Upgrade, and not to Jabba?

It's not like the tokens have any instructional text on them.

My view is that token DO carry meaning. If they are placed at some point in the game, they inherit the meaning from the card then and keep it until they are used. Why would you have meaningless pieces of cardboard on the board?

I do, vaguely, see your point. Maybe FFG should add a line somewhere in the rules saying something in the like of "Tokens carry their meaning even if the medium that got them on the table is no longer here". But I think it's obviously their intention.

8 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

My view is that token DO carry meaning. If they are placed at some point in the game, they inherit the meaning from the card then and keep it until they are used. Why would you have meaningless pieces of cardboard on the board?

I do, vaguely, see your point. Maybe FFG should add a line somewhere in the rules saying something in the like of "Tokens carry their meaning even if the medium that got them on the table is no longer here". But I think it's obviously their intention.

You think that's their obvious intention.

I think (for the sake of argument) they intended Jabba's death to stop his tokens working for balance reasons.

Without written rules to its effect, your interpretation has no RAW basis.

Mine does.

I think they ought to have written such rules.

But they didn't.