1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Without written rules to its effect, your interpretation has no RAW basis.

Mine does.

I can't find the line in the rule book that says that cards need to be in play for tokens to mean something. I don't the the RAW basis of the interpretation that token loose their value/meaning if their giver dies (other tokens don't, you don't get unstressed if you kill a ship that stressed you -- I know that the rule book itself explains how stress works). I don't have the rule book of the C-ROC with me now (and can't find a PDF of it), so I don't know if they talk about those tokens there (they probably don't spend much time on it though).

Just now, NilsTillander said:

I can't find the line in the rule book that says that cards need to be in play for tokens to mean something. I don't the the RAW basis of the interpretation that token loose their value/meaning if their giver dies (other tokens don't, you don't get unstressed if you kill a ship that stressed you -- I know that the rule book itself explains how stress works). I don't have the rule book of the C-ROC with me now (and can't find a PDF of it), so I don't know if they talk about those tokens there (they probably don't spend much time on it though).

That would be this bit:

GOLDEN RULES

If a rule in this guide contradicts the Learn to Play

booklet, the rule in this guide takes priority.

Card abilities can override the rules listed in this

guide. Mission rules can override both card abilities

and rules from this guide.

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word

“cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be

overridden by other effects.

The precedence of rules is 'Learn to play > Rules Reference (including reference cards as part of the rules reference) > Cards without 'Cannot' > Cards with 'Cannot' > Mission abilities without 'Cannot > Mission abilities with 'Cannot' > FAQ

If it's not written in one of those things, it's not part of the game at the moment. If Jabba;s been discarded, he's not in play, his text is ignored.

Unless you want to set a precedent that you can go ahead and use text on discarded cards, in which case, infinite crack shot here I come!

The golden rule doesn't affect anything here.

34 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Unless you want to set a precedent that you can go ahead and use text on discarded cards, in which case, infinite crack shot here I come!

That's the thing :

-you use crack shot, you discard the card, it's not in play anymore and nothing in play refers to it anymore, it can't be referenced to anymore.

-you kill Jabba (anyway you want), he is not in play anymore, but the tokens are still in play and can therefor still be used.

The death of Jabba does not give you amnesia, and as the golden rule says, Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide . The card's text can be read as a reference card explaining a game element, as a reference card is simply there as an extension of the text on an upgrade card (because there isn't enough space to write everything on the small upgrade cards).

The tokens are a game mechanic granting a double use of a card and are equivalent to giving a second copy of each affected card to the relevant ship (you don't need to own those duplicate cards and a token is enough of a proxy).

I'll stop arguing now until a 3rd person gets in the debate

5 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

-you use crack shot, you discard the card, it's not in play anymore and nothing in play refers to it anymore, it can't be referenced to anymore.

-you kill Jabba (anyway you want), he is not in play anymore, but the tokens are still in play and can therefor still be used.

Where do the tokens tell you what they do?

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Where do the tokens tell you what they do?

At the beginning of the game when they are put in play, the card informs the players what the tokens mean for the rest of the game.

This exact same debate happened in en Extra Munitions thread over a year ago. With no satisfying conclusions or FFG ruling (except that if Boba tries to remove a card that has a token on it, the token goes, not the card), we are still in what seems to be a dead end with two interpretations :

1 - the tokens have inherent meaning at all time, declared when they come in play

2 - the tokens need a card to explain their meaning at all time and have none if no cards currently in play declares one

I am obviously ruling for (1) and you for (2).

Except that 2 is already covered by the rules. Jabba's card defines the tokens. Cards which are not in play are ignored. 1 isn't covered by the rules; nothing, anywhere, tells you to continue using Jabba's text when it's no longer in play except your own personal unwritten logic, and doing so sets problematic precedents.

I'd be shocked if it's not ruled the way you read it in the end (leading to yet another irritating RAW inconsistency in the FAQ), but as it stands by RAW, it's pretty cut and dried to me.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

1 isn't covered by the rules, nothing, anywhere, tells you to continue using Jabba's text when it's no longer in play, and doing so sets problematic precedents.

It sets a precedent if you consider the card to be the source of the tokens meaning at all time, not if you consider the card to give a meaning to the tokens that they then keep themselves. I don't see the issue (or the potential for abuse of this rule).

The whole wording of Jabba is, I think, made so it wouldn't need a reference card, so the RAI is the one I'm defending, but the RAW is (maybe) not even allowing you to use the tokens not on Jabba's ship (the whole shenanigan on the use of "you" as "the ship that has that card equipped" and not "the player" or "the ship that has the token equipped"). That double inconsistency in Jabba leads me to think even more that the meaning in inherited to the tokens (so the "you" is always "the ship that has the thing equipped", where "the thing" is here the token and not the card that gave the token).

42 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

It sets a precedent if you consider the card to be the source of the tokens meaning at all time, not if you consider the card to give a meaning to the tokens that they then keep themselves. I don't see the issue (or the potential for abuse of this rule).

The fact is that in this context the token is defined by the card on the table, namely Jabba. They had a mechanism for a permanently defined token, which as you mentioned was the use of reference cards that add new rules into the game at large, independent of upgrade or pilot cards in the match. As it stands killing Don Jabba rescinds the favors he has granted out on this, the day of his daughter's wedding. (space dogfight, whatever...)

Also, I second @thespaceinvader in the RAW interpretation of the card not doing much of anything for the squad, and being sloppily incorrect wording from the get go. You means "the ship equipping this." They defined their own language, and then blithely ignore or forget their own standards. We all agree that the Jabba's benefit is intended to be squad wide, but their own style guide invalidates this. They will fix, and perhaps one day actually tighten up their language to prevent these dungoofs in the future.

TL;DR +1 vote to thespaceinvader's interpretation.

I agree with Space, the tokens are meaningless, it's Jabbas text that tells you what to do with said tokens. I believe this is a case of do what the card says, not what you think it says. If there isn't a Jabba to reference , then they are cardboard on a piece of thinner cardboard.

It has taken me a little bit to come around to FFG's way of thinking, ie HLC getting to keep crits on rerolled die, even though it says on the card Attack: Attack 1 ship. Immediately after rolling your attack dice, you must change all your crit results to hit results. Attack value: 4. Range: 2-3. It took me a bit to get my thinking around that rerolling and rolling were not the same thing in FFG land.

So you may think you are correct in thinking that it is inferred that the tokens mean something, where in fact the tokens are just a reference point for Jabbas ability.

Though, the converse case is interesting:

If a ship drops a Conner Net, and then dies, what happens to the Conner Net?

We know WHAT HAPPENS when it detonates from the rules reference card, but the card text is the only thing that tells you WHEN it detonates. So... if there are no ships with Conner Nets equipped in play and someone drives over a Conner Net, what happens.

I'd been sort of tacitly assuming that they continue to go off as normal, but Jabba makes me rethink that.

It is goofy that they should stop working, just as it is goofy that Jabba would stop working. But it's RAW nonetheless.

I'm so tempted to start a big argument thread in Rules Questions about whether Conner Nets from dead ships still go off...

E: actually, bombs are a very good point. Once the card is discarded, it's no longer in play. But with it no longer in play, the text for what happens when the bomb goes off is no longer in play.

This is a pretty significant argument in favour of Jabba continuing to work whilst dead or discarded, even though I think that it's a pretty weird precedent given how Boba crew works. I'm arguing myself back in the other direction now.

o_O

Seriously:

this whole discussion is now making me think that the way Boba crew works with Engine Upgrade is wrong. EU adds Boost to your action bar, discarding it shouldn't do anything, because it's already DONE its thing in adding boost to your action bar when you equipped it. Same as R2-D6. That was my first thought when Boba came out, but FFG ruled otherwise. I didn't think about how weird that was at the time.

And also is making me think that the way bombs work is super wonky from a RAW perspective, because without EM, they have to reference cards which are no longer in play, to function at all.

E: but there's precedent for out of play things not functioning despite tokens they gave still being in play with Vizago/Boba Crew versus Cloaking Device.

o____O

This is a mess.

18 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

E: actually, bombs are a very good point. Once the card is discarded, it's no longer in play. But with it no longer in play, the text for what happens when the bomb goes off is no longer in play.

This is a pretty significant argument in favour of Jabba continuing to work whilst dead or discarded, even though I think that it's a pretty weird precedent given how Boba crew works. I'm arguing myself back in the other direction now.

I didn't think of bombs, but yeah, they are definitely a precedent for "the token inherit the cards text", since the reference cards do not say when they detonate (only that they do under the condition stated in their upgrade card, which is no longer in game then).

This all feels like lawyers arguing the constitutionality of laws using precedents and former law cases...to the supreme court!

3 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

I didn't think of bombs, but yeah, they are definitely a precedent for "the token inherit the cards text", since the reference cards do not say when they detonate (only that they do under the condition stated in their upgrade card, which is no longer in game then).

This all feels like lawyers arguing the constitutionality of laws using precedents and former law cases...to the supreme court!

DOubly so because there's precedent either way:

Bombs suggest that card text continues to work when discarded. Cloaking Device/Vizago or Boba suggests that it doesn't. ENgine Upgrade/Boba suggests that it doesn't, Jabba suggests maybe it does.

Conflicting RAW.

Such fun.

(this won't affect my practical play of these cards I don't think, but it does make me much more likely not to use Vizago, Cloak, Boba, Jabba in competitive contexts.

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

...b...but sempai, bombs come with reference cards that define them from a "how they work in a game" angle. That reference card is where the persistence of their rules come from...

Just now, E Chu Ta said:

...b...but sempai, bombs come with reference cards that define them from a "how they work in a game" angle. That reference card is where the persistence of their rules come from...

Except that the reference card doesn't say when they detonate, except by inference. The only explicit text saying when it detonates... is on the card. For all bombs.

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Except that the reference card doesn't say when they detonate, except by inference. The only explicit text saying when it detonates... is on the card. For all bombs.

*Bows* Sensei.
Nothing is true. Everything is permissable.

Though, does the inference bring the upgrade card text into the game from the vast, cold void of not-in-the-game?

This game is a leaky boat of tangled language built by casually or willfully negligent designers because hey, here we are. Playing it.

*Shruggin and sippin' on boba*

If there is ever a Huge scum ship in the future that lets you equip both Jabba and Azmorigan crew, then I'm sure you can replace Jabba after getting the value.

Jabba reads "when equipped" you get the tokens, so you'd get the tokens at setup. The way the Jabba card reads, my interpretation would be that the tokens still work despite him not being there any longer. Is there a reminder card like they have for actions (boost, talon roll, etc.)?

If that Huge ship does get released, it would be some silly way to cheat out a bunch of illicits by swapping Jabba with Gunner every other turn. Even if a ruling comes out that you can't use the tokens if Jabba doesn't exist in the gamestate, when he DOES come back... value!

22 minutes ago, Superstrength79 said:

Is there a reminder card like they have for actions (boost, talon roll, etc.)?

No, not unless the tokens are referred to in the ship rule book, which I'm pretty sure they're not but I don't have it to hand to check.

If there were, it would obviate a large portion of the discussion.

E: and as noted by other posters above, Merchant One makes it possible to equip both Jabba and Azmorigan to the C-ROC.

In this case, this is quite similar to the Cikatro Vizago + Stealth Device combo.

You don't have the Stealth device card, so you don't have to roll the dice in order to see if it's dissapear. At the same way, you cannot "use" the tokens of jabba because you don't have a card which specifies how to use them.