So here is the situation:

A Ghost with docked Phantom reveals a maneuver which causes it to overlap three cluster mine tokens. The second of these tokens to be rolled for causes lethal damage to the Ghost, and it is destroyed. Even though the second token destroyed the Ghost, the third will still detonate, and the Phantom will now auto-deploy from the Ghost with 1 face-down damage card. This much is all clear. However, a few questions:

1) Will the Ghost complete it's maneuver before the Phantom is deployed?

2) Does Sabine's opportunity to deal extra damage occur before or after the Phantom is deployed? That is, can Sabine deal a bonus damage to the Phantom if its final position is within range 1 of the Cluster Mine token which dealt the lethal damage to the Ghost? What if the Phantom is within range 1 of the Cluster Mine which detonated after the Ghost received the lethal point of damage?

3) If the Ghost had not received lethal damage from the tokens, would you measure from the Ghost's initial position or its final position to determine if it is in range 1 of a token for the purposes of triggering Sabine to put an additional damage into the Ghost?

1: Yes, the Ghost is destroyed in its final position.

2: Sabine happens when the first token is removed, so before the Ghost is destroyed. (ETA: If the first token removed were the one to destroy the Ghost, the Phantom would launch during the detonation of the bomb and before the token's removal, so it would be around for Sabine's bonus damage.)

3: You would measure from the Ghost's final position.

1. Yes. You move the ship to the end of the template first, then process the detonation of any overlapped bomb tokens. The Phantom will deploy based on the Ghost's final position after moving.
2. I believe Sabine would trigger after the Phantom is deployed, therefore the token that dealt the lethal damage could also trigger Sabine to damage the Phantom. The sequence would go like this:
   token detonates
   detonation causes damage to be dealt
   resolve any effects triggered by that damage (including destroying ships)
   destroying the Ghost triggers deployment of the Phantom (as a nested effect within detonation of the bomb)
   the bomb is now done detonating, so you are now about to remove the token, which is where you have the opportunity to trigger Sabine
   trigger Sabine (or choose not to)
   actually remove the bomb token from the board
3. You measure from the Ghost's final position.

Just now, digitalbusker said:

2: Sabine happens when the first token is removed, so before the Ghost is destroyed.

Unless the player with Sabine simply chooses not to use Sabine on that token. You can freely choose whether or not to activate Sabine's ability each time a bomb token detonates, in order to save her for a later bomb if you like. At least, that's how I've always played it and I've never had anyone tell me otherwise.

7 minutes ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

Unless the player with Sabine simply chooses not to use Sabine on that token. You can freely choose whether or not to activate Sabine's ability each time a bomb token detonates, in order to save her for a later bomb if you like. At least, that's how I've always played it and I've never had anyone tell me otherwise.

I might have missed a Frankmail or FAQ update at some point, but Sabine's text does not include the word "may".

1 minute ago, digitalbusker said:

I might have missed a Frankmail or FAQ update at some point, but Sabine's text does not include the word "may".

I do not see it in the FAQ and know not of a Frankmail changing the card to a "may."

You're right about the Phantom deployment happening as part of the bomb's detonation, and you therefore being able to apply Sabine's bonus damage to the just-launched Phantom. It would just have to be the first token that destroyed the Ghost, is all.

26 minutes ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

1. ...
2. I believe Sabine would trigger after the Phantom is deployed, therefore the token that dealt the lethal damage could also trigger Sabine to damage the Phantom. The sequence would go like this:
   token detonates
   detonation causes damage to be dealt
   resolve any effects triggered by that damage (including destroying ships)
   destroying the Ghost triggers deployment of the Phantom (as a nested effect within detonation of the bomb)
   the bomb is now done detonating, so you are now about to remove the token, which is where you have the opportunity to trigger Sabine
   trigger Sabine (or choose not to)
   actually remove the bomb token from the board

23 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I might have missed a Frankmail or FAQ update at some point, but Sabine's text does not include the word "may".

16 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

I do not see it in the FAQ and know not of a Frankmail changing the card to a "may."

Interesting. This is the first time that I've noticed it.

I looked at other cards that say "Once per round" just now and noticed that only two others do not say "may":

• Tomax Bren, who never (as far as I can tell) would have a reason to want to not use his ability and usually only gets one opportunity per round anyway (cluster missiles + crackshot being the exception)
• Rebel Captive, which specifies it happens at the first opportunity

All the rest use "may", including the new Cad Bane card which is very similar to Sabine.

So either Sabine should have had the word "may" and it's just a typo, or the designers intended Sabine to only trigger on the first friendly bomb to detonate each round but didn't use the word "first" to clarify it like they did for Rebel Captive. This may deserve a rules topic all of its own. Does anyone know of a thread where this has already been discussed?

8 minutes ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

Interesting. This is the first time that I've noticed it.

I looked at other cards that say "Once per round" just now and noticed that only two others do not say "may":

• Tomax Bren, who never (as far as I can tell) would have a reason to want to not use his ability and usually only gets one opportunity per round anyway (cluster missiles + crackshot being the exception)
• Rebel Captive, which specifies it happens at the first opportunity

All the rest use "may", including the new Cad Bane card which is very similar to Sabine.

So either Sabine should have had the word "may" and it's just a typo, or the designers intended Sabine to only trigger on the first friendly bomb to detonate each round but didn't use the word "first" to clarify it like they did for Rebel Captive. This may deserve a rules topic all of its own. Does anyone know of a thread where this has already been discussed?

I am on 4 hours sleep, 3 cups of coffee, and awake for 12+ hours: so take a spoonful of salt with this one.

If a ship at one hull hits a cluster mine and rolls 2 hits it suffers two damage and is then destroyed. Once it is destroyed the ship is removed from the play space. Cluster mines finishes resolving and the token is removed. If there are no other ships at Range 1 (now that the ship that hit the token has been removed from the play space) Sabine cannot conclude her card text as there are 0 enemy ships at Range 1 of the token being removed. As with taking the coordinate action if 0 valid ships are present the action fails and a new action may be selected, on that premise if a second mine detonates later that round Sabine has a second chance of triggering.

If Sabine was optional without the "may" text then PTL would not need the "may" text either. However "Once per round, after you perform an action, perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token." sounds nothing like "Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token."

4 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

I am on 4 hours sleep, 3 cups of coffee, and awake for 12+ hours: so take a spoonful of salt with this one.

If a ship at one hull hits a cluster mine and rolls 2 hits it suffers two damage and is then destroyed. Once it is destroyed the ship is removed from the play space. Cluster mines finishes resolving and the token is removed. If there are no other ships at Range 1 (now that the ship that hit the token has been removed from the play space) Sabine cannot conclude her card text as there are 0 enemy ships at Range 1 of the token being removed. As with taking the coordinate action if 0 valid ships are present the action fails and a new action may be selected, on that premise if a second mine detonates later that round Sabine has a second chance of triggering.

If Sabine was optional without the "may" text then PTL would not need the "may" text either. However "Once per round, after you perform an action, perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token." sounds nothing like "Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token."

Everything you just said makes sense, surprisingly enough. I agree that if Sabine is a mandatory effect but there is no ship in range for Sabine to choose, then Sabine is not used up and can attempt to resolve again on a future bomb token in the same round. And I think you're right about the timing - the destroyed ship is removed from the table before Sabine triggers, so if the bomb kills off the only ship in range, she won't have a valid target.

The PTL comparison is a good point because it helps make it clear that there is nothing magical about "once per round" that makes the effect optional. "May" is still the key word.

6 hours ago, ZealuxMyr said:

If Sabine was optional without the "may" text then PTL would not need the "may" text either. However "Once per round, after you perform an action, perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token." sounds nothing like "Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token."

To play devil's advocate, if Sabine was understood to be must, then Rebel Captive would not need the "first" text either. However, "Once per round, a ship that declares you as the target of an attack immediately receives 1 stress token" sounds nothing like "Once per round, the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack immediately receives 1 stress token."

The fact is that there are three standards of formatting for once per round cards: explicit may, explicit first opportunity must, and then Sabine and Tomax, who are neither (although if Tomax opts not to use his ability at the first opportunity -- if he is able to opt not to use his ability -- then he won't be getting another opportunity to use it, where Sabine woould).

I don't find the argument that her wording is different from Rebel Captive's 100% compelling, but neither do I find the argument that she is different from PTL 100% compelling.

Ok, Sabine is not optional, but at the same time you rarely have two bombs that detonate in the same turn except maybe Cluster Mine. And for Cluster Mine, if it is the same ship that trigger them, this mean during his maneuver, so you choose the order because they all detonate at the same time. There is no first or second. Yes, sometime if it was real life, one would be clearly first, but here we are not real life. This is a game and they all detonate in the same window: "During maneuver".

3 hours ago, muribundi said:

you rarely have two bombs that detonate in the same turn except maybe Cluster Mine

You clearly have not flown triple K-Wings or played against them. When I fly them, it's very common for me to drop multiple bombs in the same round, including bombs of different types. For example, I might drop a Conner Net in front of an enemy ship with one K-Wing while dropping a Seismic Charge with another K-Wing, hoping that the action denial from the Conner Net will prevent the enemy ship from barrel rolling or boosting away from the Seismic.

Well three K-Wing with Twin Laser is already 29 points each. And I would not fly K-Wing without Twin Laser... So this continue to be in the rare occasion throughout all the game played of x-wing where two bombs are dropped in one turn.

Edit: I really like it when you say something is rare and there is someone that must absolutly find the rare case and try to present it like it is a really common event. Three X-Wing bomber only is not something common... this is a rare case that do not happen often...

11 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Well three K-Wing with Twin Laser is already 29 points each. And I would not fly K-Wing without Twin Laser... So this continue to be in the rare occasion throughout all the game played of x-wing where two bombs are dropped in one turn.

Edit: I really like it when you say something is rare and there is someone that must absolutly find the rare case and try to present it like it is a really common event. Three X-Wing bomber only is not something common... this is a rare case that do not happen often...

3K wings with bombs and no TLT is a serious meta list (known as Galaxy Note 7) as are two K-wings with bombs and no TLT and a wingman (Ahsoka in the captured TIE with bombs of her own or Biggs are the two most common) as are two K Wings with bombs and TLTs and a Z-95 Bandit wingman as are the two named K wings with bombs and TLTs or Miranda and a Warden with bombs and TLTs.

At every tournament I've been to in the last year there have been at least 2 players flying one of these archetypes. They are devastatingly effective and their popularity in the face of fragile aces and predictable defenders as well as their ability to ignore Dengar's revenge shot is what is driving the current shortage of K-Wings. Just because you haven't seen the list doesn't mean it isn't out there or that the question isn't worth addressing.

Even if there is only a single KWing on the table, though, this is still a question worth answering.

The most common situation I see it come up in is if I drop a cluster mine in front of my primary target such that I know that ship will run over the mine, but it is not yet in range 1 (let's say it is a fragile ace like Fenn and I've used my intel agent to check his dial). However, one of the 3 cluster nodes is placed such that it overlaps a ship immediately, causing it to detonate (Let's say it is a beefy low priority ship, like Manaroo). It is very important, then whether or not I can choose to hold onto Sabine's ability until Fenn runs over the other mines, allowing me to put a free damage into Fenn or if I have to use her immediately to put a damage into a lower-priority target.

FWIW, I am in the camp where before this thread I had never heard the argument that Sabine might be mandatory. I and every one of my opponents and TOs have always played her as optional. I've been flying with her since she was released and I have never had an opponent question this, and opting to not trigger her on the first detonation is something that I do, on average, at least once a game.

17 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Well three K-Wing with Twin Laser is already 29 points each. And I would not fly K-Wing without Twin Laser... So this continue to be in the rare occasion throughout all the game played of x-wing where two bombs are dropped in one turn.

Edit: I really like it when you say something is rare and there is someone that must absolutly find the rare case and try to present it like it is a really common event. Three X-Wing bomber only is not something common... this is a rare case that do not happen often...

Three K-Wings without Twin Laser Turret is exactly what I fly. I took second place in a Store Champs with it. We can quibble over the definitions of "rare" and "common", but multiple bombing K-Wings is definitely a thing that shows up in the meta. I think it would be flown more if it wasn't so hard to find K-Wings for sale right now. Go to http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/search and search "p=warden and u=sabine" to see a long list of multi-K-Wing squads, including a 2017 Store Champs winner and a 2017 Regionals winner.

3 minutes ago, Bascaria said:

FWIW, I am in the camp where before this thread I had never heard the argument that Sabine might be mandatory. I and every one of my opponents and TOs have always played her as optional. I've been flying with her since she was released and I have never had an opponent question this, and opting to not trigger her on the first detonation is something that I do, on average, at least once a game.

I'm happy to hear I'm not alone in being an experienced Sabine/K-Wing player who thought she was optional.

Well sorry to not take seriously a list in 37 position played in 9 reported tournement over the last 3 months:

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-03-20&ranking_end=2017-06-20&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

4 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Well sorry to not take seriously a list in 37 position played in 9 reported tournement over the last 3 months seriously:

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-03-20&ranking_end=2017-06-20&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

You mean winning a regional: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2653

Or getting top 4 (first in swiss): http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2571

Or top 2: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2577

Just because you aren't seeing it in your local meta doesn't mean it isn't out there, and doesn't mean that this question isn't worth answering. Though I will agree that it has fallen out of favor recently as many of its matchups in the current meta are not great. Again, though, still a question worth answering and still a situation that can easily come up, even with only a single bomber on the table.

37 minutes ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

I'm happy to hear I'm not alone in being an experienced Sabine/K-Wing player who thought she was optional.

Me too!!

Current Wham list is Miranda TLT and bombs, Ahsoka and sabine in the tie (with Seismics) and a warden with em cluster mines.

I often wait and see with my bombs, (i have been known to also run Miranda over a cluster mine if i need to do a final point of damage to an ace)

1 hour ago, Bascaria said:

Just because you aren't seeing it in your local meta doesn't mean it isn't out there

I never said it never happen. I said it is NOT A COMMON OCCURANCE. We are all talking in another thread about Snap / PA, it does not mean it is heavly played. A list can win tournement and still not be a common occurance.

So after all this, my sentence: "Ok, Sabine is not optional, but at the same time you rarely have two bombs that detonate in the same turn except maybe Cluster Mine" is still valid and it never implied that we should not talk about it or fix it or make it optional.

I just meant to say it was not a big deal, not something preventing lots of player from playing or not making it a deal breaker right now.

Edit: A list winning tournement does not make it a meta player or something you must take into account when testing. It just mean that this person at that tournement had a good call.

2 hours ago, muribundi said:

I never said it never happen. I said it is NOT A COMMON OCCURANCE. We are all talking in another thread about Snap / PA, it does not mean it is heavly played. A list can win tournement and still not be a common occurance.

So after all this, my sentence: "Ok, Sabine is not optional, but at the same time you rarely have two bombs that detonate in the same turn except maybe Cluster Mine" is still valid and it never implied that we should not talk about it or fix it or make it optional.

I just meant to say it was not a big deal, not something preventing lots of player from playing or not making it a deal breaker right now.

Edit: A list winning tournement does not make it a meta player or something you must take into account when testing. It just mean that this person at that tournement had a good call.

I regularly play Galaxy Note 7 (including at a Store Championship last Sunday) and I can tell you that multiple bombs detonating in a single turn is not only commonplace, it is a major tactic for this particular type of list.

And none of the players in my area have ever played Sabine any other way than being able to choose which token triggers her ability.

I actually have only used Sabine a couple times but played against her plenty. Every person I've ever seen use her has treated her ability as optional.

I will agree though that strictly speaking by the text it should probably mandatory trigger on the first bomb of that goes off.

It's a little odd though. Given that rebel captive exists and explicitly says "the first" you would think Sabine would be the same phrasing if she was meant to be mandatory. The only other "Once per round" Card that doesn't include the word "may" is Tomax and there's no reason to ever not use him so that's kind of a non-issue in terms of this.

Seems like this is one that would be good to get a Frank mail on if possible.

On 20/6/2017 at 10:36 PM, muribundi said:

Edit: A list winning tournement does not make it a meta player or something you must take into account when testing. It just mean that this person at that tournement had a good call.

I would like to know the exact ruling. Common or uncommon. What's the point @muribundi, if you didn't face it, it does not exist? it's not important?

I had this question come up last week too and would like to know the answer.

It's as simple as Old Teroch at PS 7 running over the left cluster token, and Fenn running over the right one at PS9. I would want to delay the Sabine effect for Fenn.