Seeker of Knowledge adds the air type to the ring while attacking, and lets you pick either result. With Toturi or Hotaru, can they choose this ring effect for their reaction?

I know it will be mostly speculation until the official FAQ, but I'm curious of what the assumption on this would be until then.

Assuming you are the one attacking with SoK + Hoturi/Toturi, then yes.

Seeker of Knowledge:

While this character is attacking, the contested ring gains the element. If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve.

Hoturu/Toturi

Reaction: After you claim a ring during a ? conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect.

The reaction is just telling you to resolve the ring's effect. SoK says you can resolve either the contested or Air element effect.

Atleast that is how I read it.

14 hours ago, Kakita Katai said:

Assuming you are the one attacking with SoK + Hoturi/Toturi, then yes.

Seeker of Knowledge:

While this character is attacking, the contested ring gains the element. If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve.

Hoturu/Toturi

Reaction: After you claim a ring during a ? conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect.

The reaction is just telling you to resolve the ring's effect. SoK says you can resolve either the contested or Air element effect.

Atleast that is how I read it.

Hotaru says to resolve the claimed rings effects. This means you would not be able to choose the air rings effects for the second ring effect resolution unless that was the ring you declared for the conflict, because even though SoK adds the air element to the conflict, you do not claim the air ring unless it was your declared ring for the conflict, but then you would not use SoK.

So you could for the SoK ring effect choose the air ring effect, then for the champ resolve the claimed/declared ring's effects.

51 minutes ago, HidaYama said:

Hotaru says to resolve the claimed rings effects. This means you would not be able to choose the air rings effects for the second ring effect resolution unless that was the ring you declared for the conflict, because even though SoK adds the air element to the conflict, you do not claim the air ring unless it was your declared ring for the conflict, but then you would not use SoK.

So you could for the SoK ring effect choose the air ring effect, then for the champ resolve the claimed/declared ring's effects.

Well, the SoK does give the Air trait to the ring, not the conflict. I see this as a dual ring and you get to pick whichever effect you want to resolve. I would guess Hotaru can choose as well. That's how I'd rule it, until there's an official FAQ or something similar.

However, SoK allows you to you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve.

I am willing to agree to disagree with HidaYama. We obviously need a ruling from FFG to truly answer this one. I am sure this won't be the only one.

My default was to the decision Kakita came to, but I also thought of the interpretation Hida came to. It means I'll have to clarify with my opponent before playing and picking what I'd want to play, but I feel like that would also tell my opponent what I'm playing.

1 hour ago, Kakita Katai said:

However, SoK allows you to you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve.

I am willing to agree to disagree with HidaYama. We obviously need a ruling from FFG to truly answer this one. I am sure this won't be the only one.

I agree. After Ser Nakata pointed out the his side, I can see both sides of this argument. I agree with you that this does need an official ruling from FFG. Specifically i would like to see this ruling focused on whether the SoK ability adds the air effect options to the claimed ring, or not and resolve SoK as card says, because this may apply to other card combination other than the champs.

While typing up my response, I actually came up with a different possible answer.

Seeker of Knowledge adds the Air trait to the ring. So for example if you were contesting the ring of fire, it is now the ring of fire air. I believe the following text is just there to tell you that you do not resolve both effects, but only one of them.

Totaru resolves after you claim the ring and instructs you to resolve the ring's effect. I see 3 possible outcomes.

1. After you claim the ring, Seeker's ability is no longer in effect as the ring is no longer contested and is now claimed. This means Totaru can only resolve its original ring effect and not the one granted by seeker.
2. The ring is considered contested until the conflict fully resolves in which case the ring still has both effects and Totaru must choose one.
3. The ring is considered contested until the conflict fully resolves in which case the ring still has both effects when Totaru resolves. However, as Totaru does not have the text which says to choose which ring effect to resolve, Totaru resolves both ring effects.

I don't think it will be 3, but it could be. I hadn't thought of that much awesomeness, but I'd be fine with it, especially since i want to honor run with either lion or crane for now.

My understanding of it, based on the card wording, experience with other FFG games, and being a CCG card judge for many years leads me to believe this:

If the ring is claimed as the attacker, they are both still counting as the attacker during that step. (Otherwise during ring claiming, no one would be the attacker during this step)

That means that Toturi is still the attacker for this part of the phase and he will trigger and get to choose a ring. Since the SoK is still attacking, you may choose either the original ring effect or the air ring.

Seeker of Knowledge:

While this character is attacking, the contested ring gains the element. If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve. (notice that it doesn't say only once , or that this effect only lasts until it is claimed etc.)

Hoturu/Toturi

Reaction: After you claim a ring during a ? conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect. (again no limits on when or that it would be a different phase than the normal ring claim.)

16 minutes ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

My understanding of it, based on the card wording, experience with other FFG games, and being a CCG card judge for many years leads me to believe this:

If the ring is claimed as the attacker, they are both still counting as the attacker during that step. (Otherwise during ring claiming, no one would be the attacker during this step)

That means that Toturi is still the attacker for this part of the phase and he will trigger and get to choose a ring. Since the SoK is still attacking, you may choose either the original ring effect or the air ring.

Seeker of Knowledge:

While this character is attacking, the contested ring gains the element. If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve. (notice that it doesn't say only once , or that this effect only lasts until it is claimed etc.)

Hoturu/Toturi

Reaction: After you claim a ring during a ? conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect. (again no limits on when or that it would be a different phase than the normal ring claim.)

However since Hotaru's ability is a reaction to a claimed ring and doesn't say anything about choosing the ring, wouldn't that mean that she needs to resolve the ability that was chosen?

For example I go fire and have both of them in the conflict. Then I decide to resolve fire, hotaru reacts and resolves it effects again. Or on the other hand I choose air and hotaru can only react to that and resolve air again.

edit: on the third hand Seeker doesn't reference claiming the ring just resolving the effects of the ring so I guess Hotaru gets to choose in the end?

7 minutes ago, BordOne said:

However since Hotaru's ability is a reaction to a claimed ring and doesn't say anything about choosing the ring, wouldn't that mean that she needs to resolve the ability that was chosen?

For example I go fire and have both of them in the conflict. Then I decide to resolve fire, hotaru reacts and resolves it effects again. Or on the other hand I choose air and hotaru can only react to that and resolve air again.

edit: on the third hand Seeker doesn't reference claiming the ring just resolving the effects of the ring so I guess Hotaru gets to choose in the end?

Well Totaru resolves after normal ring claiming so that brings up another question. When you choose which effect to resolve at the ring claiming step, is that now considered the only effect on that ring? If so that would mean Totaru has to choose the same effect you chose for seeker.

Hotaru gets to activate the ring effect after claiming a ring. Since the SoK is still there, and the wording is 'If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve.' Leads me to believe that Hotaru gets to use the ring effect, and the seeker puts two different effects and the requirement of her being in the battle is still valid, that you get to choose the air effect or the original effect.

That is how I would rule it if the question came up in a tournament today. (full rule book and FAQ of course could change all of this, but I am pretty confident in this answer.)

21 minutes ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

Hotaru gets to activate the ring effect after claiming a ring. Since the SoK is still there, and the wording is 'If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve.' Leads me to believe that Hotaru gets to use the ring effect, and the seeker puts two different effects and the requirement of her being in the battle is still valid, that you get to choose the air effect or the original effect.

That is how I would rule it if the question came up in a tournament today. (full rule book and FAQ of course could change all of this, but I am pretty confident in this answer.)

Well nothing on Totaru says to choose, so in that case why wouldn't Totaru's effect resolve both effects?

The big questions I see is as follows:

1. Does SoK does add the Air effects to the ring for the remainder of the round or does it have a previous stopping point?

2. If it has a previous stopping point, when in the timeline is that.

The answer to these two questions will give us the answer we need to this situation and others I believe.

His power is: Reaction: After you claim a ring during a conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect.

If his power triggers, he gets to use the rings effect. If the Seeker is knowledge there you get to choose which ring effect is there.

I don't think there is a way to win a battle as an attacker and have one part trigger and then remove the other one from the battle before the other effect triggers. This should all be one part of the same phase. ( in previous FFG rules reactions always take place in the same phase as the trigger.)

When you win with Toturi the SoK is still there, and his card specifically says that you choose one of the two effects on the ring if you win and he is participating. (you can't gain the bonus of the air effect being added from the SoK and not have the downfall of having to choose it.)

3 minutes ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

His power is: Reaction: After you claim a ring during a conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect.

If his power triggers, he gets to use the rings effect. If the Seeker is knowledge there you get to choose which ring effect is there.

I don't think there is a way to win a battle as an attacker and have one part trigger and then remove the other one from the battle before the other effect triggers. This should all be one part of the same phase. ( in previous FFG rules reactions always take place in the same phase as the trigger.)

When you win with Toturi the SoK is still there, and his card specifically says that you choose one of the two effects on the ring if you win and he is participating. (you can't gain the bonus of the air effect being added from the SoK and not have the downfall of having to choose it.)

But SoK's choose part only applies to the normal game ring claiming. Toturi's reaction occurs after that and has nothing to do with claiming a ring and only resolving the ring's effect. So the way I see it is either A) SoK ring claiming locks the ring effect and Toturi resolves the same effect, B) Regardless of SoK's effect, the ring is still the ring of <element> and Toturi resolves that element's effect, or C) SoK gives the ring 2 effects and Toturi resolves both of them.

What do you mean her ability only applies to the normal game ring claiming? I don't believe that to be the case.

Her ability modifies ring claim. He allows a second in certain situations.

5 minutes ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

What do you mean her ability only applies to the normal game ring claiming? I don't believe that to be the case.

Her ability modifies ring claim. He allows a second in certain situations.

I agree with you that SoK's ability modifies ring claim. I disagree with you that toturi applies a second claiming.

Toturi says after you claim a ring resolve THAT ring's effect. So what ring did you claim? What ring is THAT ring? To me, it means those choices I listed above. Either A) I chose the effect with the initial claim and that is the effect that ring has right now, B) The ring is still the original ring regardless what SoK did to it so I resolve the original ring, or C) SoK gave that ring 2 effects and nothing on Toturi tells me to choose so I resolve both.

My understanding is that since SoK says "contested" Hotaru/Toturi would not be able to double up on Air as it was not "claimed." The conflict would still be a Fire element, for example, and you would claim the Fire Ring if you win the conflict. SoK just lets you resolve a different Ring effect, Air, instead of what you would normally get. In this example with Hotaru/Toturi, you could choose to double up on Fire, or resolve both Fire and Air, but not resolve Air twice.

Unless there is some sort of ruling that SoK would allow you to claim the Ring of Air as a result of her ability, but, I don't see it working that way, as worded.

Jrosen9 : Totori does say resolve that ring's effect. What indication is there that the SoK's effect has stopped after the first time. It is a constant ability (not action or reaction etc.) that means it always in effect. (unless FFG is using different wording in this game then they have used in the last four LCGs they have put out.)

Ishi Tonu there is a possibility that it as soon as you claim the ring (fire in your example), the fire ring would become claimed and not contested. so it could lose its air bonus at that point. Since Toturi's ability is a reaction, it does seem like the second claim would happen in reaction before the ring goes back to claimed state. It is true we can't know for sure, but my experience with FFG games and card game interpretations, do lead me to believe that you can use the air bonus for both claims.

1 minute ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

Jrosen9 : Totori does say resolve that ring's effect. What indication is there that the SoK's effect has stopped after the first time. It is a constant ability (not action or reaction etc.) that means it always in effect. (unless FFG is using different wording in this game then they have used in the last four LCGs they have put out.)

Of FFGs other LCGs, I've only played thrones and I do not remember any similar effect. What you don't seem to be understanding from my argument is that the claim from SoK is different from effect resolve of Toturi. Toturi is telling you to resolve the Ring you claimed's effect. You claimed the ring of fire. What effect does it have? Is it the one you chose when you did the rulebook claiming as modified by SoK or is the ring of fire always the ring of fire and SoK just gives you a choice during normal ring claim, or does it have 2 ring claim effects currently and you resolve both of them?

NOTE: The only place a choice is given between two effects is on the modification granted by SoK to the normal ring claim step. Toturi's ring effect resolving is a separate effect unconnected to ring claiming except as its trigger. Therefore, no choice is allowed.

Technically if you want to apply DUCK (Determine Winner, Unopposed, Claim, Keywords) from thrones to L5R, a reading of SoK applies another interpretation. First you get to determine winner. Here is where the choice of SoK applies as it reads:

Quote

If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, you may choose which of its ring effects to resolve.

So you make your choice and decide whether you are resolving Air or base. Unopposed is unknown at this time so ignore it. Now go to Claim. You claim the ring as normal with your choice made in the determine winner step. After that claim, Toturi's reaction triggers and you resolve that ring's effect. At this point I'm leaning towards having to resolve the same effect chosen in the determine winner step, but I can see plausible arguments that you always resolve base ring or you resolve both rings. However, I can see no plausible argument that you get to choose the ring a second time as there is no trigger for that choice.

29 minutes ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

Ishi Tonu there is a possibility that it as soon as you claim the ring (fire in your example), the fire ring would become claimed and not contested. so it could lose its air bonus at that point. Since Toturi's ability is a reaction, it does seem like the second claim would happen in reaction before the ring goes back to claimed state. It is true we can't know for sure, but my experience with FFG games and card game interpretations, do lead me to believe that you can use the air bonus for both claims.

Not using other games as a reference and only going on what is printed, I don't see how it can be interpreted any differently than I described.

SoK being present as an attacker sets the condition for the player to use either element, of their rulebook effect of resolving a ring effect as a winner. It does not change what ring is claimed.

Hotaru/Toturi are specifically using a printed ability to resolve the ring effect of the "claimed" ring.

SoK never changes what ring is claimed so why should Hotaru/Toturi be allowed to resolve a ring effect of a ring that was not claimed?

One of the things that might be part of the disconnect is that the SoK's ability is a constant ability. It has a condition to be effective, but it is not an ability that only triggers once. While the card is in play.

So if the SoK is in play, and attacking, the ring gains the air element added to its ring. If the SoK is there, as an attacker, you choose which of the two happen. This is a constant ability and will happen while she is in play. If during a turn she is brought into two different attacks, her ability will trigger during each attack. While she is attacking, the Claim for that attack is modified. While she is attacking there is no standard ring, she has modified it and it will stay modified until she is not attacking.

Toturi / Hotaru allow an additional ring effect to happen. I will copy the direct wording from the card.: Reaction: After you claim a ring during a conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect.

The ring's effect has the air element added to it. that is exactly what the SoK does.

As for the timing of it, since it would Toturi's reaction would happen immediately as the ring is first claimed, the board action does not have a chance to change. So the SoK is still attacking and winning, her constant ability says you get to choose which ring effect to trigger. It does give a limit to how many times it can trigger.

(the DUCK example leads to a problem in that your example would indicate that the SoK would trigger one of the two rings in the Determine step. you would then be able to activate the ring again in the Claim step. I do not think that is the case in this situation. I believe that she modifies the Claim itself. Otherwise she allows two ring effects, and from a 2 cost 0/2 character that seems unlikely.) (upon rereading what you said, it is possible that in the Determination you would forced to choose and not be able to alter that choice later.)

(Toturi's trigger is claiming a ring, but that is the cost, not the effect. the effect is to "resolve that rings effect." Since the SoK adds the air element and if attacking and winning, gives the player the choice of which effect to choose.

It is possible that they decided to word the rules in this game different than the last three rule sets they have printed. We wont know for sure until they are released. And considering the wording possibly not until they release an FAQ.

5 minutes ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

It is possible that they decided to word the rules in this game different than the last three rule sets they have printed. We wont know for sure until they are released. And considering the wording possibly not until they release an FAQ.

I can only speak to thrones2.0 because I never played any of their other games, but the issue is I don't think they have an effect that is similar to this in Thrones. In thrones, SoK would read

Quote

while this character is attacking, the challenge gains intrigue. If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, you may choose which of its claim effects to resolve.

And Toturi would read

Quote

After you apply claim in a challenge this character is participating - resolve that claim's effect

For both of those texts, I just replaced the L5R terms with the AGOT terminology. When laid out like that, I don't think you'd argue that you get to make a second choice when resolving toturi's ability. You would say that you apply the same claim effect twice.