1 minute ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

That's an interesting idea, and could make for some engaging stories.

I'm not sure having the normal clan members dealing on that level with their founding Kami feels right for Rokugan, though. It might work if written very carefully. If Hoshi exists this time., Nat e get can be the one to directly tell his father "yo dad, we need to talk".

Oh, by "the Dragon Clan" I meant the "Dragon Clan protagonists". So yeah, Hitomis, Hoshis, and other new kids on the block. "You saved us for 1000 years and were the best father we could ask for. Allow us to be best children a father could ask for and let us take it from here now, and watch us with pride while resting", etc etc etc. Let it go, Togashi :P.

7 minutes ago, WHW said:

Oh, by "the Dragon Clan" I meant the "Dragon Clan protagonists". So yeah, Hitomis, Hoshis, and other new kids on the block. "You saved us for 1000 years and were the best father we could ask for. Allow us to be best children a father could ask for and let us take it from here now, and watch us with pride while resting", etc etc etc. Let it go, Togashi :P.

I vote Hitomi off the island.

Otherwise the idea has promise.

58 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

I disagree. Strongly. My favorite scorpion decks in Old5R were political in nature.

The extremely political scorpion decks of The Ruined Fortress era.
The Deception's Veil Dojo decks of Samurai Edition.
Or the Kyuden Bayushi "I am the Imperial Favor" decks of Diamond Edition.

Scorpion is also fun when it is a bunch of Ninjas running around in their pajamas, don't get me wrong, but the political decks capture the feel of the clan better than anything, imho.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that playstyle, and it can be quite fun. I'm really coming more from a thematic standpoint than a mechanical one though.
The Scorpion aren't a clan that pours tons of resources into training up Courtiers in the "this is how to do Politics" the way the Doji or the Ide do. The Scorpion have those, just as everyone does, but it's not a primary focus of the clan. Instead, all Scorpion are taught how to "behave" in court, and all Scorpion are taught how to gain leverage on their opponent, whether it's in a fight or in an argument or just digging up some dirt for a rainy day.
(Consider the Bayushi Courtier school from the RPG - It really doesn't know how to "play the game," as if you don't have blackmail on someone and/or they don't have many disadvantages to take advantage of, you really aren't very strong against that person. But when your target does have those things, you're a wrecking ball on their honor, their reputation, etc.)

tl;dr - It's a clan of spies and manipulators that doesn't really focus on any one thing but has it's hands in everything, rather than an uber-court presence clan akin to a mirror of the Doji.

(For what it's worth, if the Kyuden Wasuremono deck(s) (military dishonor punishment with bushi, ninja, magistrates, and a few courtiers) of the Samurai Edition era could have been played out of the City of Lies stronghold from Lotus Ed., replacing the few courtiers used for fueling things (like Two-Front War and personality dishonoring) with more militant personalities, I think that would have ended up being the "quintessential" Scorpion deck. )

[Edited cuz of weird strikethrough error...]

7 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

What we're really wanting out of this, if we're being honest is Asian ASOIAF with romanticism. Make us utterly despise someone, then slowly reverse our opinion once the curtain is pulled back on their POV.

This one hundred times this. I want the villains to be from different clans. I want Hitomi and Yakumo relationships all over but from the wrong angles for a while. The I want a reveal that Hitomi actually has a plan to help the dragon instead of just turning into a super villain.

Give me conflicting heroes, one sues for piece while one fights for food.

Misunderstandings and realistic overreactions.

Give me Jamie Lannister redemption stories. Jerk *** to bad ***.

2 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

This one hundred times this. I want the villains to be from different clans. I want Hitomi and Yakumo relationships all over but from the wrong angles for a while. The I want a reveal that Hitomi actually has a plan to help the dragon instead of just turning into a super villain.

Give me conflicting heroes, one sues for piece while one fights for food.

Misunderstandings and realistic overreactions.

Give me Jamie Lannister redemption stories. Jerk *** to bad ***.

I'm all for it,

What I believe that will take (such as focused perspectives) will make some unhappy.

The problem with the taint, to me, is that there's no real intermediary step. It's an on/off switch ; you're tainted, or you're not. Once tainted, there are degrees from merely terrible ("sorry, you have to be secluded and drink jade petal tea for the rest of your life") to UTTERLY horrible ("sorry, you're now a flesh-eating monster"), but the big leap from okay to horrible has no gap.

I'd redo it as a tiered system, where tainted, corrupted and lost are three separate levels of corruption (Spiritual, Physical and "Social")

SPIRITUAL corruption represent Jigoku gaining a foothold in your mind. It is accrued by spending time in the Shadowlands without protection, or coming into contact with corrupted artifacts or blood, performing low-level maho, or being being born to tainted parents. It's a tarnish on your soul that offers great power, if you're willing to pay the price. Spiritual corruption is not detectable by magic or any technique known to Rokugan, and does not create Jade vulnerability - as far as anyone knows, the spiritually afflicted are undetectable. In addition; as this tier of taint is purely spiritual, it can be purified through certain rites, though this is difficult, and something few Rokugani are willing to do as even admiting you need that kind of purification is shameful (the Crab, of course, understand the need better than most), and potentially politically devastating.

PHYSICAL corruption represent the taint seeping from your mind into your body. It is accrued either by giving in to your spiritual corruption (in which case the corruption becomes physical) in return for power ; or by being wounded by an Oni (as a creature out of Jigoku), or powerful corrupt Nemuranai (not : a pebble in the Shadowlands). Using, and being the victim of, particularly powerful Maho rituals could also lead to this level of corruption. This is detectable by Rokugani magic and wards, leaves you vulnerable to Jade, etc - all the things normally associated with taint. Physical corruption can only be limited, never cured ; if you give in to spiritual corruption even once and accept physical corruption, there is no going back. At this point, you can either embrace a life of seclusion, join the damned (or, in later years of another timeline, the Spider), or try to hide your taint as best as you can.

SOCIAL corruption represents the taint affecting your mind and loyalties, and turning you on the empire. You will join the ranks of the Lost. It can only be reached when you give in to the temptation (of physical or spiritual corruption) of turning your back on the empire, Bushido and their rules

Call it Tainted/Corrupted/Lost, if you will.

9 minutes ago, Himoto said:

The problem with the taint, to me, is that there's no real intermediary step. It's an on/off switch ; you're tainted, or you're not. Once tainted, there are degrees from merely terrible ("sorry, you have to be secluded and drink jade petal tea for the rest of your life") to UTTERLY horrible ("sorry, you're now a flesh-eating monster"), but the big leap from okay to horrible has no gap.

Yoritomo Kumiko takes exception to that statement.

Kumiko was part of when they started changing the taint, though.

Sort of.

She had to go through a pretty long and crazy process to remove her taint. For a long long time, she was the only character I can name to successfully remove it. And I don't think she was ever secluded and forced to drink jade tea at any point.

She is also from Gold edition, which isn't exactly "late" in Old5R's lifespan.

9 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

She had to go through a pretty long and crazy process to remove her taint.

And I don't think she was ever secluded and forced to drink jade tea at any point.

IIRC, she had to find the Plot Ronin Gang (Unbroken?) and kill an oni. That was all.

She was raised in a monastery, effectively living on jade petal tea. Yoritomo's old crew only busted her out because Kitao was too much Mantis and they wanted another leader.

47 minutes ago, Himoto said:

The problem with the taint, to me, is that there's no real intermediary step. It's an on/off switch ; you're tainted, or you're not. Once tainted, there are degrees from merely terrible ("sorry, you have to be secluded and drink jade petal tea for the rest of your life") to UTTERLY horrible ("sorry, you're now a flesh-eating monster"), but the big leap from okay to horrible has no gap.

I'd redo it as a tiered system, where tainted, corrupted and lost are three separate levels of corruption (Spiritual, Physical and "Social")

SPIRITUAL corruption represent Jigoku gaining a foothold in your mind. It is accrued by spending time in the Shadowlands without protection, or coming into contact with corrupted artifacts or blood, performing low-level maho, or being being born to tainted parents. It's a tarnish on your soul that offers great power, if you're willing to pay the price. Spiritual corruption is not detectable by magic or any technique known to Rokugan, and does not create Jade vulnerability - as far as anyone knows, the spiritually afflicted are undetectable. In addition; as this tier of taint is purely spiritual, it can be purified through certain rites, though this is difficult, and something few Rokugani are willing to do as even admiting you need that kind of purification is shameful (the Crab, of course, understand the need better than most), and potentially politically devastating.

PHYSICAL corruption represent the taint seeping from your mind into your body. It is accrued either by giving in to your spiritual corruption (in which case the corruption becomes physical) in return for power ; or by being wounded by an Oni (as a creature out of Jigoku), or powerful corrupt Nemuranai (not : a pebble in the Shadowlands). Using, and being the victim of, particularly powerful Maho rituals could also lead to this level of corruption. This is detectable by Rokugani magic and wards, leaves you vulnerable to Jade, etc - all the things normally associated with taint. Physical corruption can only be limited, never cured ; if you give in to spiritual corruption even once and accept physical corruption, there is no going back. At this point, you can either embrace a life of seclusion, join the damned (or, in later years of another timeline, the Spider), or try to hide your taint as best as you can.

SOCIAL corruption represents the taint affecting your mind and loyalties, and turning you on the empire. You will join the ranks of the Lost. It can only be reached when you give in to the temptation (of physical or spiritual corruption) of turning your back on the empire, Bushido and their rules

Call it Tainted/Corrupted/Lost, if you will.

Spiritual Corruption sounds a lot like simple Temptation, which is directly inline with the theme of the seductive nature of corruption (including Taint, Maho, Kolat, and Lying Darkness).

- You just a regular guy with nothing to make you stand out, a little taint will make you faster, stronger, better . . .

- You tired of being bullied, a little maho curse will fix that and teach them a lesson . . .

- It is the blessing of a Kami after-all (of course "they" would say its bad, they are intent to keep holding you down) . . .

- They are no better than me, why shouldn't I have that too, here is a short-cut to all I desire . . .

Every samurai would be resisting it every day - I would not categorize that as any level of Tainted.

21 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

IIRC, she had to find the Plot Ronin Gang (Unbroken?) and kill an oni. That was all.

She was raised in a monastery, effectively living on jade petal tea. Yoritomo's old crew only busted her out because Kitao was too much Mantis and they wanted another leader.

A) Kumiko killed an Onisu, Settozai, to cleanse her Taint. Not exactly a minor feat.

B) She left the monastery when she was of age. Not 'busted out'.

C) Kitao was a traitor. Period.

random one:

- Randomly inserting "hai" into dialogue in fictions replacing "Yes". Seeing something like "Hai, my lord" makes me incredibly irritated.

2 minutes ago, WHW said:

random one:

- Randomly inserting "hai" into dialogue in fictions replacing "Yes". Seeing something like "Hai, my lord" makes me incredibly irritated.

I'd be okay with that one if it weren't *just* "hai." You could be justified in using the Japanese words if you're using the whole range of formality, with characters also saying "haa" and "ee" and "n" -- but without that, it's just pointless exoticizing.

5 minutes ago, WHW said:

random one:

- Randomly inserting "hai" into dialogue in fictions replacing "Yes". Seeing something like "Hai, my lord" makes me incredibly irritated.

This is one of those things that comes with trying to show Japanese culture - do you stick with actual behavior or change it for your audience. Japanese is considered an 'active listening' language. When speaking with someone, they will interject 'hai' at regular intervals. It's closer to "I see" or "Go on" than an actual "yes," but it is the way the language works. It takes getting used to if you're a native English speaker, where looking or nodding, and at most a grunt, is considered polite.

In short, I don't really want them to drop this, and they could probably do it even more if they really wanted to...

I would be okay with it if it was something like, "Hai, Togashi-sama", with the "Togashi-sama" replacing the "my lord" altogether. But the start contrast between HAI and MY LORD mashed together drives me crazy.

2 minutes ago, WHW said:

I would be okay with it if it was something like, "Hai, Togashi-sama", with the "Togashi-sama" replacing the "my lord" altogether. But the start contrast between HAI and MY LORD mashed together drives me crazy.

Ah, OK. That's a fair point.

3 minutes ago, agarrett said:

This is one of those things that comes with trying to show Japanese culture - do you stick with actual behavior or change it for your audience. Japanese is considered an 'active listening' language. When speaking with someone, they will interject 'hai' at regular intervals. It's closer to "I see" or "Go on" than an actual "yes," but it is the way the language works. It takes getting used to if you're a native English speaker, where looking or nodding, and at most a grunt, is considered polite.

In short, I don't really want them to drop this, and they could probably do it even more if they really wanted to...

No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a situation like this: imagine a kneeling samurai who is being asked a question. That samurai replies, with a short "Yes, my lord". But for whatever reason, fictions seem to love replacing that yes with "hai" for...exoticism, I guess? I mean, GMing a RPG game I maybe would go with an occasional "Hai, Blabla-sama", or whatever, but my players would blink at me with disappointment for HAI, MY LORD.

21 minutes ago, agarrett said:

This is one of those things that comes with trying to show Japanese culture - do you stick with actual behavior or change it for your audience. Japanese is considered an 'active listening' language. When speaking with someone, they will interject 'hai' at regular intervals. It's closer to "I see" or "Go on" than an actual "yes," but it is the way the language works. It takes getting used to if you're a native English speaker, where looking or nodding, and at most a grunt, is considered polite.

In short, I don't really want them to drop this, and they could probably do it even more if they really wanted to...

I'm all in favor of showing the "active listening" part of it. But you can do that with "Yes" or "I see" or "Go on," rather than dropping in a Japanese word just to show that HEY HEY DID YOU KNOW THIS IS INSPIRED BY JAPAN? I think it's a holdover from the way non-native speakers often get depicted in fiction, randomly using their native language for basic words like "yes" and "no" . . . when in reality, that's the opposite of how people tend to talk. Those words are the easiest for a person to internalize in the secondary language; the ones you stick on are the more complex vocabulary you don't use on a regular basis. And it makes even less sense here, where all the dialogue is assumed to be in Rokugani unless specified otherwise.

(This is separate from using Japanese terms that have been borrowed into English, like kimono or katana, or where there's no concise English equivalent.)

For me, the Kolat.

They do nothing, really nothing. They exist as a group with very ill-defined motives and goals and are constantly paraded around as these very dangerous groups, with no payoff. At times the best they appear is just a spy mobster family of sorts.

Instead make them a true shadowlands conspiracy. Make the masters each incredibly powerful and dangerous characters that slowly, over the centuries, have played the empire in their massive games against each other and have reliable methods to crush those that dare to dig too deeply into the underbelly.

Characters like Yajinden, who are always lurking in the background, but every now and then step into the center stage, cause things to go down, then disappear until they are needed again, would be perfect for this. Goju could exist here. Maho blood cult leaders all across the empire, orcastrated by one or two nefarious minds. Two clans almost thrown into a terrible and bloody conflict as a result of the Master's manipulating them over territory. They laboriously assassinating the right people at the right times to put sleeper agents into high positions of leadership. All of this could be incredible shadowland plots.

Make them SCARY and powerful. That way you don't need to rely of Big Bad Supernatural threats, you can have them become involved every now and then, different masters for different plots as they corrupt the underbelly of the Empire with plans decades old, then tell the tales of the heroes that figure it out and stop them.

You give Scorpion a very real threat to fight in the shadows and get to show that the Shadowlands hasn't always simply been held back at the wall.

Call them the Kolat or the Spider conspiracy, either of them would work.

"The greatest thing the Kolat/Spider ever did, was convince the empire it didn't exist."

15 hours ago, Mr Omura said:

To riff off the OP's point about Scorpion being type-cast, I tried playing Old5R during Emperor Edition and founds that "themes" were just a terrible, terrible design decision. The card pool was already divided up nine ways with generally non-interacting clans and then it was further subdivided into even further smaller groups with niche keywords (e.g. magistrates, ninjas, etc). In the end, decks were largely pre-constructed after the themed stronghold was selected. I much prefer the New5R approach were you (seemingly) must marshal both political and military might; this should allow for more creativity and give completed decks the feeling of an entire clan working in concert.

The Spider Clan was so bad! Maybe this isn't a sacred cow, but as an outsider who tried to get into Old5R, the whole notion of a legitimized Shadowlands faction seemed so forced, unnatural, and antithetical to the purpose of the setting. I am a little more sympathetic to the Mantis Clan, but hope they aren't brought back simply to keep the clan count as low as possible. I actually kinda wish they had reduced the clan count to 5 to maximize the intra-clan card pools. (Again, this is the opinion of someone who wasn't heavily invested in the game, I'm sure there would be rioting if they reduced the clan count to 5.)

As a loyal supporter of the Wasp Clan, I hope they get represented in some way, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to the Wasp, Fox, Centipede, Mantis, etc. remaining minor clans. If making minor clan stuff Neutral would be too potentially unbalancing, maybe they'll have a Minor Clan faction with no stronghold, and all cards having an Influence cost. (That is, just as Neutral cards appear to be in-clan for all clans, Minor Clan cards would be cross-clan for all clans.)

6 hours ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

I very deeply hope that they go for a special edition kind of boxset and introduce a "playable" shadowlands in the form of a campaign deck or a 1v many boss mode/archenemy kind of thing. Something different. I can't imagine how the Shadowlands could interact with this game the way that everything else does(which is fine), but I would love for there to be something special for them for those of us that just want to wally about with Onis.

Lots of love, former Spider.

If Shadowlands ever appear as a playable faction, I'd bet this is the way it'll happen. Having seven factions that all follow the same rules (albeit in different fashion) with one faction that has a completely different set of rules doesn't really work too well, design-wise. Having a deluxe set where it's the one faction VS one or more of the seven would be much better for asymmetric design. Something like the Siege boxes would do quite nicely for a playable Shadowlands faction.

5 hours ago, YasukiKaito said:

• Lack of real high level consequences - This might be unpopular, and I understand the reasons why a game would steer away from it (alienating players and all that), but I was actually really excited for the Mantis storyline at end of AEG days. Being almost completely destroyed as a clan and no longer a playable faction, with the opportunity to rebuild the clan in coming arcs and tournaments seemed like the most exciting storyline I could imagine and I was looking forward to following it in the worst way. I even wanted to help recreate the Mantis and restore the clan. It made me invested in the game in a way that 'Person X becomes Position Y' never did. Those rewards were always cool too, but I was ready to dive in and fight with/for those dirty pirates!

Oh, yeah. It was absolutely thrilling. In fact, it was far too high an honor for a bunch of ruffians like us. Really, the privilege of being destroyed and unplayable for an arc or two should have gone to one of the other, far more worthy clans. I promise we wouldn't have been too offended.

6 hours ago, WHW said:

3. Focusing on large scale conflicts and warfare. Zoom the camera in; I wouldn't mind having a storyline or two that doesn't bother with clan champions and armies and wars, and instead focusing on individual characters.

This. !!!!

Please FFG, some (more) of this.

7 hours ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

Yeah, it looks like my preferred dead sacred cow is back: Clan Champions being the best at everything. To me it is pointless and doesn't make sense. You can have the protagonist/central character for a clan be someone other than the clan champion.

Hell, the Phoenix had Shiba Tsukimi in the Clan Champion spot for... god, was it really almost a decade? And she was never a point of focus- to the point where her oncoming demise wasn't greeted with sadness or anger, but with, for the most part, resigned shrugs.

From about the end of Samurai edition on, the only Phoenix character with fanbase-wide traction was Isawa Mizuhiko- who had no particular authority within the Clan. He just had a cool story.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

If Shadowlands ever appear as a playable faction, I'd bet this is the way it'll happen. Having seven factions that all follow the same rules (albeit in different fashion) with one faction that has a completely different set of rules doesn't really work too well, design-wise. Having a deluxe set where it's the one faction VS one or more of the seven would be much better for asymmetric design. Something like the Siege boxes would do quite nicely for a playable Shadowlands faction.

Oh, yeah. It was absolutely thrilling. In fact, it was far too high an honor for a bunch of ruffians like us. Really, the privilege of being destroyed and unplayable for an arc or two should have gone to one of the other, far more worthy clans. I promise we wouldn't have been too offended.

And this, in a nutshell, illustrates why I think a 'coup' story is unlikely.