17 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Being that the story opens on the tricentennial anniversary of the return of the Unicorn, I would love to see that the Ide Ambassadors have made at least a little progress in challenging the "they-are-a-clan-of-barbarians" belief once held by so many in the Empire. It would make it clear that the family is not lazy and/or outright useless.

This why I liked 'original flavor' Unicorn. Half had gaijin names. Half had Rokugani names, and they simply felt more intergrated into the empire

blame Moto Gaheris or whomever created him

21 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

What we're really wanting out of this, if we're being honest is Asian ASOIAF with romanticism. Make us utterly despise someone, then slowly reverse our opinion once the curtain is pulled back on their POV.

Im not going to go on and on about the fact that character i originally hated most in those books eventually became my favoriite....whoops too late.

but i see your point.

1 hour ago, Fumi said:

Eventually, though, the setting will be sufficiently introduced that they'll be able to spend some words on stuff like moral complexity.

Y'know I really want this sacred crown slain. Moral complexity just doesn't sit well with the setting in my opinion and cheapens its presentation of the bushido. Nobody should bother much about morality in Rokugan, the lines are drawn nine times out of ten, making a character cross them in-and-out will not necessary give depth to the story as much as ruin the character (Hida Kisada, I'm looking at you now). What we should have is character complexity rather than moral complexity: characters should do bad things because they are flawed individuals and not because intricate moral choices.

3 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Y'know I really want this sacred crown slain. Moral complexity just doesn't sit well with the setting in my opinion and cheapens its presentation of the bushido. Nobody should bother much about morality in Rokugan, the lines are drawn nine times out of ten, making a character cross them in-and-out will not necessary give depth to the story as much as ruin the character (Hida Kisada, I'm looking at you now). What we should have is character complexity rather than moral complexity: characters should do bad things because they are flawed individuals and not because intricate moral choices.

Its possible Im misreading what your saying (if so i apologize, its almost 5am here)

the conflict between conscience and bushido IS "samurai drama"

I dont think you'll get your wish in this case.

There is no need for a playable Shadowlands faction, IMHO.

Just now, Tonbo Karasu said:

There is no need for a playable Shadowlands faction, IMHO.

I dont think we'll see that until FFG needs to sell a deluxe box

I'd love to leave the Crab's alliance with the Shadowlands at the door.

17 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

the conflict between conscience and bushido IS "samurai drama"

Nah, this is the cheap way to do it. You have good samurai drama when there is drama despite (or better yet, because) the character's conscience being perfectly in-line with bushido. It is just a lot harder to write, because you can't tick drama with angst and you must actually play around with character portrayal and subtlety.

Just now, Joe From Cincinnati said:

I'd love to leave the Crab's alliance with the Shadowlands at the door.

secoded and tripled, but I think we're mostly in the clear on that (fingers crossed)

that was a confluence of events. The most important of which I'm 90% certain is a non-starter.

4 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Nah, this is the cheap way to do it. You have good samurai drama when there is drama despite (or better yet, because) the character's conscience being perfectly in-line with bushido. It is just a lot harder to write, because you can't tick drama with angst and you must actually play around with character portrayal and subtlety.

I grant you that.

As long we don't end up with up with a bunch of Shakespearian caricatures, or amoral d-bags.

Bushido is HARD for actual human beings. That shouldn't go unacknowledged.

4 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Y'know I really want this sacred crown slain. Moral complexity just doesn't sit well with the setting in my opinion and cheapens its presentation of the bushido. Nobody should bother much about morality in Rokugan, the lines are drawn nine times out of ten, making a character cross them in-and-out will not necessary give depth to the story as much as ruin the character (Hida Kisada, I'm looking at you now). What we should have is character complexity rather than moral complexity: characters should do bad things because they are flawed individuals and not because intricate moral choices.

Well, Kisada isn't really an example of what I was talking about. He was just a villain who was clumsily retconned into an antivillain, and who then learned the error of his ways. His situation wasn't morally complex, because we knew the entire time when he was doing the right thing and when he wasn't.

Also, I would consider bushido itself to be morally complex at times, but there have been 10-page+ discussions about that subject in the past, so I'll just leave it at that to avoid derailing this one.

Anyway, I'm not saying everything needs to be morally gray, I'd just like to see more of it than we have in the past. And Rokugan is big enough to contain some gray in addition to its black and white.

4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Bushido is HARD for actual human beings. That shouldn't go unacknowledged.

This usually comes as a simple balancing factor. Characters who are actual human beings do not follow bushido that hard. Characters who truly follow bushido are not actual human beings. No character is thus perfect, the one who is humane has weak honor, while the one with strong honor is inhumane. Also, you can squeeze out quite a lot of interesting stuff by describing the actions of the latter through the eyes of the former.

9 minutes ago, Fumi said:

Well, Kisada isn't really an example of what I was talking about. He was just a villain who was clumsily retconned into an antivillain, and who then learned the error of his ways.

Heh. The "retcon" is exactly what I was referring to with "ruin the character" .

The only thing I absolutely want is to abandon the need to bring BBGs from the Shadowlands and coups against the emperor all the time and focus more on clan strife.

41 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

This usually comes as a simple balancing factor. Characters who are actual human beings do not follow bushido that hard. Characters who truly follow bushido are not actual human beings. No character is thus perfect, the one who is humane has weak honor, while the one with strong honor is inhumane. Also, you can squeeze out quite a lot of interesting stuff by describing the actions of the latter through the eyes of the former.

Heh. The "retcon" is exactly what I was referring to with "ruin the character" .

As long the 'balance' is maintained im with you.

Too many whiners is bad. Too many baby eaters is equally bad.

As for Kisada, he's close to that 'shakespearean caricature' I mentioned.

It just struck me, by your metric the Scorpion are the most 'human' of the clans. I kinda dig the implications

2 hours ago, blackheartz said:

The only thing I absolutely want is to abandon the need to bring BBGs from the Shadowlands and coups against the emperor all the time and focus more on clan strife.

I see the need for the BBG's, but they should be portrayed more as unseen figures plotting from the shadows and directing the actions of their subordinates, instead of front line combatants. I also believe the story as a whole would benefit from a shift of focus off the Emperor / Clan Champions to the lower tiers of power/status.

As for the Sacred Cows to slaughter (that have not already been mentioned):

1 - Lying Darkness & Spirits

2 - Naga, Ninja & Rats as Fully realized factions (sorry guys)

3 - It pains me to say this, but Shadowlands as a playable faction. I would much rather see cards with strong abilities / low costs that tempt players to add them to their decks than a "ONI SMASH" stronghold that causes a rules rewrite to make it viable.3

4 - The unending hordes of Samurai in each clan. More Ashigaru & Budoka making up the bulk of armies.

Just my two cents

19 minutes ago, jcharpjr71 said:

I see the need for the BBG's, but they should be portrayed more as unseen figures plotting from the shadows and directing the actions of their subordinates, instead of front line combatants. I also believe the story as a whole would benefit from a shift of focus off the Emperor / Clan Champions to the lower tiers of power/status.

As for the Sacred Cows to slaughter (that have not already been mentioned):

1 - Lying Darkness & Spirits

2 - Naga, Ninja & Rats as Fully realized factions (sorry guys)

3 - It pains me to say this, but Shadowlands as a playable faction. I would much rather see cards with strong abilities / low costs that tempt players to add them to their decks than a "ONI SMASH" stronghold that causes a rules rewrite to make it viable.

Just my two cents

I'm more torn about LD than I thought. While I definitely do NOT want another Plot Monster story arc about it, as a 'subtle horrifying menace' I think it has value to the setting. So I would vote for leaving it OUT of ongoing stories. Save it for rpg material.

The other issue is dropping the LD will require 'adjusting' the 1st day of thunder, and part of Scorpion history. I can live with it, but oppose it on principle.

I won't cry over 2 and 3

I think the age of BBG is over. However, the age of Clan Champion perspective, I think, is not.

I friggin' loved the part where they implied that Shosuro was the tidbit of Nothing Fu Leng had cut off. That story had potential.

5 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I friggin' loved the part where they implied that Shosuro was the tidbit of Nothing Fu Leng had cut off. That story had potential.

Of corse the problem was, if she wasn't human, how can she be a thunder?

2 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Of corse the problem was, if she wasn't human, how can she be a thunder?

Shinsei was bs'ing, it was obvious as how he kept back Shiba from the First but Togashi was A-Okay for the Second.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

Shinsei was bs'ing, it was obvious as how he kept back Shiba from the First but Togashi was A-Okay for the Second.

....Togashi got his butt kicked.

Just now, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

....Togashi got his butt kicked.

Yet he was still there, despite Shinsei chasing away Shiba with a "Kami can't go with Thunders" deal. Shiba would have got his butt kicked too, anyway. He lost out against the First Oni, he would have fared even worse against Fu Leng.

Just now, AtoMaki said:

Yet he was still there, despite Shinsei chasing away Shiba with a "Kami can't go with Thunders" deal. Shiba would have got his butt kicked too, anyway. He lost out against the First Oni, he would have fared even worse against Fu Leng.

Truth

Of course this was Togashi's 1000 year moment of destiny. Where finally got to DO something, instead just being inscrutable and mysterious

On the original topic, I think my favored sacred cow to slay has already been seen frolicking in the meadows, so it's as safe as can be. That is the super-champion, unfortunately. I'd really prefer that the clan leaders are not also the best in clan at, well, everything the clan does. Leading takes a lot of time and effort, and means they won't have the time to put in to become the best - it's why they have specialists. But, I know, narrative. We want POV characters who are important, so... Anyway, judging from the first two fictions, that one is here to stay.

Unlike others, I am hoping the story proceeds roughly along the original lines. A Scorpion (or other clan for a big variation) Clan Coup followed by Clan Wars and a Day of Thunder. I thought those were great stories with lots of room for mythic writing and variations. No reason to throw out great stories there. Of course I hope they'll have a bit more of a plan on where to go from there

I think the remaining sacred cow I'd most like to see slain is the modern view that peace between the clans is desirable. It was one of AEG's problems as they started giving players more control over the story - it's part of the way we think today, but is definitely ahistorical, and doesn't seem to be right for Rokugan. The clans should desire to fight, and should not see making peace as the desired outcome. (Yes, Phoenix have that role in the story traditionally. Either tone it down a lot, or make them serious oddballs. From what I see in this thread, I think even most Phoenix players want that.)

4 minutes ago, agarrett said:

On the original topic, I think my favored sacred cow to slay has already been seen frolicking in the meadows, so it's as safe as can be. That is the super-champion, unfortunately. I'd really prefer that the clan leaders are not also the best in clan at, well, everything the clan does. Leading takes a lot of time and effort, and means they won't have the time to put in to become the best - it's why they have specialists. But, I know, narrative. We want POV characters who are important, so... Anyway, judging from the first two fictions, that one is here to stay.

Unlike others, I am hoping the story proceeds roughly along the original lines. A Scorpion (or other clan for a big variation) Clan Coup followed by Clan Wars and a Day of Thunder. I thought those were great stories with lots of room for mythic writing and variations. No reason to throw out great stories there. Of course I hope they'll have a bit more of a plan on where to go from there

I think the remaining sacred cow I'd most like to see slain is the modern view that peace between the clans is desirable. It was one of AEG's problems as they started giving players more control over the story - it's part of the way we think today, but is definitely ahistorical, and doesn't seem to be right for Rokugan. The clans should desire to fight, and should not see making peace as the desired outcome. (Yes, Phoenix have that role in the story traditionally. Either tone it down a lot, or make them serious oddballs. From what I see in this thread, I think even most Phoenix players want that.)

The problem with the coup is putting a faction into a no win scenario. I could be mistaken, but I thought the Scorps weren't orginally a player faction for just this reason.

3 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I dont think we'll see that until FFG needs to sell a deluxe box

I very deeply hope that they go for a special edition kind of boxset and introduce a "playable" shadowlands in the form of a campaign deck or a 1v many boss mode/archenemy kind of thing. Something different. I can't imagine how the Shadowlands could interact with this game the way that everything else does(which is fine), but I would love for there to be something special for them for those of us that just want to wally about with Onis.

Lots of love, former Spider.