1 hour ago, shosuko said:

idk - I really like that Shugenja are more priests than mages in Rokugan. I think they should keep that theme. The best Shugenja I had in one of my games was one where, I explained that Shugenja are priests and that they can do many awesome things, but that they don't do anything directly. They appeal to the Kami to do this. We sorta threw out the "spell book" from the game entirely and worked every situation out as a sense / commune / summon allowing him to creatively ask for what he felt was best at each situation, and to roll for it as a basic prayer + raises to the desired effect. He would always give offerings when ever the group traveled, and his tendency / obligation to do so allowed easy hooks and introduce new characters as they can meet others who are giving offerings.

Anyone could perform basic cleansing. I don't disagree with that. It's important to also realize the duality of religion. Some temples are Shinto type shrines which would be run by priests, and some are monastic shrines that are run by monks. There really is no western equivalent, even if you think Druids are closer... It's still not the same.

That same campaign had a Kitsuki who had to compulsivly visit shrines to cleanse himself. If I remember properly.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Pantraguel? Isn't that a renaissance-era fantasy story with all the trappings of being a renaissance-era fantasy story? I mean, I don't want to nitpick here, but it is like judging samurai from Hagakure.

Hagakure is probably a fair comparison on your part, in that neither are medieval texts. However, given that L5R is heavily influenced by Hagakure, it's probably also fair on my part.

The reason I use Pantagruel (besides that it's an excuse to post an amazingly good passage) is because Rabelais, whilst not a violent man personally, lived in a violent time and was surrounded by violent people; and was writing about a caste whose male members were expected to carry swords to defend themselves and to serve in wars. My field of academia doesn't cover the definition of a "warrior caste", but to me this would be an example of one.

37 minutes ago, WHW said:

One of my many reworks of the L5R 4th edition (which, at this point, isn't very similar to the original) included reworking the skill list and consolidating them. Lore: XYZ is just Lore, Weapon skills are just Budo encompassing all forms of combat, including unarmed and archery, and so on.

I really like this for lore skill, as otherwise the specialized forms of lore are too weak. I DO NOT like it for weapon skills. Weapon skills (and jiujitsu) are powerful enough as is. No need to make them more powerful by lumping them all together.

Whats so powerful about having access to 10 different stat sticks which are otherwise identical and usable in a very specific situation of combat?

4 minutes ago, WHW said:

Whats so powerful about having access to 10 different stat sticks which are otherwise identical and usable in a very specific situation of combat?

Katana, Bows, and Unarmed (grappling) were all very effective in 4th edition in different situations. Having a single skill make you good at all of them would be... suboptimal in my opinion.

In my experience, the skills investigation, stealth, courtier, etiquette, sincerity, athletics, and Weapon Skills, tend to dominate RPG sessions. Making the weaker skills like lore more useful by rolling them into one lore skill is a good thing. Making any of the above skills even more powerful, would be a bad thing.

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

Was there outrage at her shooting a bow? Or her firing 1 shot to kill a Clan Champion?

(...)

The problem with Hotaru wasn't so much that she could use a bow, but that she could use a bow to 1 shot someone of such rank. It felt extremely anti-climactic to me, not a suitable death for a warrior and not realistic on the battlefield.

Not... realistic? Of all the words you could choose, realistic was you best bet?

Need I go after a list of kings, generals and other high-profile people that died to stray arrows or other projectiles during battles?

In real life, people don't die in epic duels on a burning tower or on a bridge over a river of lava or something. There is nothing fantastical about a general attacking an obvious trap almost alone and then getting shot in the face.

And about it taking "one shot" to kill him...

...it took two. And that is one arrow more than the necessary to kill anybody.

The real problem with that scene is another: paper mache armor. Another "honorable tradition" of all media that should die in a blazing inferno.

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

(..)

Personally I would expect a samurai to be well versed in all weapons. It's one of the tropes of Samurai fiction that western Knights don't often have. Western fiction typically gets bland in the weapons department, with super specialization. In D&D you are rarely able to use multiple weapons, and same for classes in MMORPG. Samurai are unique in that we expect them to be masters of the sword, polearm, bow, horse riding, ect.

(...)

...seriously? There is nothing unique about that in samurai. Every single warrior caste in the planet was expected to be a master of those things. Maybe not the bow, specifically in the knight's case but polearms? Horse riding? Those are defining traits of the European knight!

2 minutes ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

Not... realistic? Of all the words you could choose, realistic was you best bet?

Need I go after a list of kings, generals and other high-profile people that died to stray arrows or other projectiles during battles?

In real life, people don't die in epic duels on a burning tower or on a bridge over a river of lava or something. There is nothing fantastical about a general attacking an obvious trap almost alone and then getting shot in the face.

And about it taking "one shot" to kill him...

...it took two. And that is one arrow more than the necessary to kill anybody.

The real problem with that scene is another: paper mache armor. Another "honorable tradition" of all media that should die in a blazing inferno.

...seriously? There is nothing unique about that in samurai. Every single warrior caste in the planet was expected to be a master of those things. Maybe not the bow, specifically in the knight's case but polearms? Horse riding? Those are defining traits of the European knight!

Not gonna lie, you touch on the single largest takeaway from the Lion fiction that flew over so many people's heads. It was a trap. Clearly. The way things unfold from that point become logical and realistic (comparatively, for fiction) when that fact is embraced. It isn't a freak accident that Hotaru planned well in advance to show up, must have been aware of Arasou's presence on the battlefield, likely knew his demeanor from her relationship with Toturi, then enacted a plan to draw him out while she was simultaneously taking to the field of battle herself to strike him down. I know it conflicts with the common, rushed to opinion that she's just some hormonal teenager entirely unfit to be champion (which itself is a claim based on taking a few pages from a ten page story and lending them disproportionate weight), but the subtext is there.

6 minutes ago, Zetsubou said:

Not gonna lie, you touch on the single largest takeaway from the Lion fiction that flew over so many people's heads. It was a trap. Clearly. The way things unfold from that point become logical and realistic (comparatively, for fiction) when that fact is embraced. It isn't a freak accident that Hotaru planned well in advance to show up, must have been aware of Arasou's presence on the battlefield, likely knew his demeanor from her relationship with Toturi, then enacted a plan to draw him out while she was simultaneously taking to the field of battle herself to strike him down. I know it conflicts with the common, rushed to opinion that she's just some hormonal teenager entirely unfit to be champion (which itself is a claim based on taking a few pages from a ten page story and lending them disproportionate weight), but the subtext is there.

Precisely. That also serves to show that Toturi, even with his failing of overthinking, is the best general but was ignored in favor of a hot-headed glory-hound.

12 minutes ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

Not... realistic? Of all the words you could choose, realistic was you best bet?

Well, it was unrealistic in a way that it didn't happen earlier with poor Arasou. One would think some had already peppered him with some arrows or he had crazy wuxia anti-arrow magic, but apparently, no. With no explanation of how it makes even an ounce of sense.

Just now, Mirumoto Saito said:

Precisely. That also serves to show that Toturi, even with his failing of overthinking, is the best general but was ignored in favor of a hot-headed glory-hound.

Man it is refreshing that you understand the story. I've been evading the specific story thread cuz I got completely sick of reading "Toturi is passive and inept, the city was all but in Lion hands!" In the context of it being a trap to cut off the head, so to speak, of the Lion offensive, likely to buy the defenders of the city some time while the leadership vacuum is filled, there is no way the Crane sent a critical portion of their forces in the counterattack. To assume so is silly, why sally forth with enough of your forces to cripple yourself? Especially when an additional contingent apparently was in reserve to enable the trap? That alone reveals how wrong the assumption was that somehow the Lion rallying and driving back the Crane counterattack was a fatal blow for the city's defenders. They went all in without the additional forces that served to cover their retreat and enable Hotaru's shot? Why?

1 hour ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

Not... realistic? Of all the words you could choose, realistic was you best bet?

Need I go after a list of kings, generals and other high-profile people that died to stray arrows or other projectiles during battles?

In real life, people don't die in epic duels on a burning tower or on a bridge over a river of lava or something. There is nothing fantastical about a general attacking an obvious trap almost alone and then getting shot in the face.

And about it taking "one shot" to kill him...

...it took two. And that is one arrow more than the necessary to kill anybody.

The real problem with that scene is another: paper mache armor. Another "honorable tradition" of all media that should die in a blazing inferno.

...seriously? There is nothing unique about that in samurai. Every single warrior caste in the planet was expected to be a master of those things. Maybe not the bow, specifically in the knight's case but polearms? Horse riding? Those are defining traits of the European knight!

There are two components to my post. There is "realism" and there is "fictional trope."

Realism - No general in a western or eastern army would wear less than the best armor available. The best armor through the prime of western europe and japan field warfare was essentially immune to arrows and blades. It didn't take a tactical genius to be able to fight under archer fire, it just took good armor. An arrow would not simply pierce the chest piece, and Arasou would have to look up to have an arrow hit him in the eye. This was the writer attempting to be thematic not realistic, but it is such an unbelievable situation that I just don't buy it. The author needed to give more set up and pretense for such a scene. You can't just have something happen, and say "it's fiction" as if that makes it better.

Trope - The trope of the western knight is one of either sword and shield, or lance on horse back. You don't typically imagine a knight being an archer on the battle field. They are also typecaste as 1 weapon fighters for the most part. When you play an RPG like D&D people typically take their weapon, and just use that. You don't see a barbarian with a bow, or a mage with a zweihander. These are certainly not realistic - as warfare was typically one of the most innovative scenes. Knights employed many types of weapons and were likely well versed in archery, horseback, and sword, as well as siege weapons and construction even in peace time. In L5R RPG Samurai have always been given a wide variety of skills to stress that they were masters of all weapons. It's an aspect of the RPG that I found refreshing after so many swords & sorcery rpg and mmo that left warriors very much a bland cookie cutter where you pick a weapon and that's your weapon.

On a note of interest - the iconic knight in armor with a grand shield is not realistic either. As knights developed their full plate armor they stopped wearing shields in battle because they didn't need them. The trope still persists of sword and shield in full armor. My point is to preserve the Samurai L5R vision of a weapons expert with a variety of tools at his disposal, rather than become reduced to the simple "Samurai use Katana" :\

50 minutes ago, Zetsubou said:

Man it is refreshing that you understand the story. I've been evading the specific story thread cuz I got completely sick of reading "Toturi is passive and inept, the city was all but in Lion hands!" In the context of it being a trap to cut off the head, so to speak, of the Lion offensive, likely to buy the defenders of the city some time while the leadership vacuum is filled, there is no way the Crane sent a critical portion of their forces in the counterattack. To assume so is silly, why sally forth with enough of your forces to cripple yourself? Especially when an additional contingent apparently was in reserve to enable the trap? That alone reveals how wrong the assumption was that somehow the Lion rallying and driving back the Crane counterattack was a fatal blow for the city's defenders. They went all in without the additional forces that served to cover their retreat and enable Hotaru's shot? Why?

"Why would the Crane do something so silly as actually extending themselves in an offensive to break the siege" oh yeah, but Arasou being literally suicidal is okay? Like, there is a difference between being tactical vs brash, and a whole other world of stupid to actually look up into arrow fire... Arasou is played to be a complete fool, and I'm honestly surprised he (and tsuko) have even lived this long if they are so dedicated to being mindless blood bags.

You don't think you can believe Crane would over-extend themselves, and that its "obviously" a trap with not a single line in the story to give pretext and then think it's okay for Arasou to blatantly commit suicide in the battlefield?

Just look at the narrative

Wow... such trap... very tactics...

1 hour ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

Need I go after a list of kings, generals and other high-profile people that died to stray arrows or other projectiles during battles?

You're likely to find -1- such case, Harold Godwinson. Allegedly he raised his visor during the fight and that is when the arrow hit. It's also speculated that this is more myth than fact, and that he wasn't shot through the eye with an arrow, and he did live through the battle.

9 minutes ago, shosuko said:

There are two components to my post. There is "realism" and there is "fictional trope."

Realism - No general in a western or eastern army would wear less than the best armor available. The best armor through the prime of western europe and japan field warfare was essentially immune to arrows and blades. It didn't take a tactical genius to be able to fight under archer fire, it just took good armor. An arrow would not simply pierce the chest piece, and Arasou would have to look up to have an arrow hit him in the eye. This was the writer attempting to be thematic not realistic, but it is such an unbelievable situation that I just don't buy it. The author needed to give more set up and pretense for such a scene. You can't just have something happen, and say "it's fiction" as if that makes it better.

Trope - The trope of the western knight is one of either sword and shield, or lance on horse back. You don't typically imagine a knight being an archer on the battle field. They are also typecaste as 1 weapon fighters for the most part. When you play an RPG like D&D people typically take their weapon, and just use that. You don't see a barbarian with a bow, or a mage with a zweihander. These are certainly not realistic - as warfare was typically one of the most innovative scenes. Knights employed many types of weapons and were likely well versed in archery, horseback, and sword, as well as siege weapons and construction even in peace time. In L5R RPG Samurai have always been given a wide variety of skills to stress that they were masters of all weapons. It's an aspect of the RPG that I found refreshing after so many swords & sorcery rpg and mmo that left warriors very much a bland cookie cutter where you pick a weapon and that's your weapon.

On a note of interest - the iconic knight in armor with a grand shield is not realistic either. As knights developed their full plate armor they stopped wearing shields in battle because they didn't need them. The trope still persists of sword and shield in full armor. My point is to preserve the Samurai L5R vision of a weapons expert with a variety of tools at his disposal, rather than become reduced to the simple "Samurai use Katana" :\

"Why would the Crane do something so silly as actually extending themselves in an offensive to break the siege" oh yeah, but Arasou being literally suicidal is okay? Like, there is a difference between being tactical vs brash, and a whole other world of stupid to actually look up into arrow fire... Arasou is played to be a complete fool, and I'm honestly surprised he (and tsuko) have even lived this long if they are so dedicated to being mindless blood bags.

You don't think you can believe Crane would over-extend themselves, and that its "obviously" a trap with not a single line in the story to give pretext and then think it's okay for Arasou to blatantly commit suicide in the battlefield?

Just look at the narrative

Doji Hotaru, the Crane Clan Champion, appeared with a small body of archers to provide cover fire for the fleeing Crane.

Wow... such trap... very tactics...

Wow, you mean a narrative from the perspective of those falling into the trap would just lay it on out there that it was, indeed, a trap? Limited third person perspective would like a word with your understanding of it's use.

27 minutes ago, Zetsubou said:

Wow, you mean a narrative from the perspective of those falling into the trap would just lay it on out there that it was, indeed, a trap? Limited third person perspective would like a word with your understanding of it's use.

The narrative didn't even describe it as a trap when it "sprung." It states she stepped out to provide cover fire for fleeing crane, not "Hotaru stepped out, bow drawn, just as Arasou came within range."

Maybe you're just bias, I guess as "Crane part 2" its a decent story. It' certainly makes the Crane look great, and the Lion look like meatbags waiting to be slaughtered on the battlefield...

44 minutes ago, shosuko said:

The narrative didn't even describe it as a trap when it "sprung." It states she stepped out to provide cover fire for fleeing crane, not "Hotaru stepped out, bow drawn, just as Arasou came within range."

Maybe you're just bias, I guess as "Crane part 2" its a decent story. It' certainly makes the Crane look great, and the Lion look like meatbags waiting to be slaughtered on the battlefield...

I have to agree. The events in that story are not depicted to me as a trap. Rather, the Crane are routed and flee to the city walls for cover. Nothing in the story - to me at least - suggests that their retreat was intentionally meant to set a trap.

On 6/19/2017 at 0:26 AM, WHW said:

12. Phoenix being too busy tainting themselves and unleashing forbbidden knowledge instead of being internally torn apart between "let's not interfere and pray for peace, while also maybe allowing ourselves to be murderkilled just to prove a point" and "let's become Rokugani equivalent of USA and bring everyone peace using superior firepower and meddling where nobody wants us" while also including the whole spectrum between those two

I realize I'm way late to bring out this comment but I wanted to say that I agree. The Isawa pacifist thing was a bit ridiculous for the setting in my opinion. I get that it is a spiritual clan but the Phoenix are still part of the ruling caste of a warrior society. I'd prefer that they maybe put a focus the clan on harmony. Harmony between the kami and humankind. Harmony between bushido and the mystical. Harmony between the Clans (in terms of general Clan political strategy), etc. Basically I'd prefer the Phoenix to always seek peaceful, balanced or mutually beneficial solutions but when that's not possible they're ready for war, and they march to end it quickly.

Along those lines I hope that the Phoenix lore moves away from the Isawa being the defacto ruling family and adjust the story so that the Isawa and the Shiba rule together (elemental masters and the Champion) from the start.

Finally, even if players decide they want to corrupt the Phoenix again (which I hope they won't but I'm not everybody) I hope the story writers use a bit more restraint in jumping the Isawa right into blood magic. Give that sort of thing a little time. But again I hope it doesn't happen.

1 hour ago, Rawls said:

I have to agree. The events in that story are not depicted to me as a trap. Rather, the Crane are routed and flee to the city walls for cover. Nothing in the story - to me at least - suggests that their retreat was intentionally meant to set a trap.

This is how I read it. It seemed more like the Crane overextended while pursuing Arasou, and turned to run when Toturi sprung the trap. Arasou was flush with adrenaline and glory seeking and pursued strait into the Crane rear guard's covering fire.

14 minutes ago, blaquelotus said:

I realize I'm way late to bring out this comment but I wanted to say that I agree. The Isawa pacifist thing was a bit ridiculous for the setting in my opinion. I get that it is a spiritual clan but the Phoenix are still part of the ruling caste of a warrior society. I'd prefer that they maybe put a focus the clan on harmony. Harmony between the kami and humankind. Harmony between bushido and the mystical. Harmony between the Clans (in terms of general Clan political strategy), etc. Basically I'd prefer the Phoenix to always seek peaceful, balanced or mutually beneficial solutions but when that's not possible they're ready for war, and they march to end it quickly.

Along those lines I hope that the Phoenix lore moves away from the Isawa being the defacto ruling family and adjust the story so that the Isawa and the Shiba rule together (elemental masters and the Champion) from the start.

Finally, even if players decide they want to corrupt the Phoenix again (which I hope they won't but I'm not everybody) I hope the story writers use a bit more restraint in jumping the Isawa right into blood magic. Give that sort of thing a little time. But again I hope it doesn't happen.

While I think 'pacifist samural' is a bigger oxymoron than 'holy war', Phoenix pacifism is mentioned in the clan description on the product page. So, it's still here. They could, however, portray it in such a way to play up the idealism, and not make them look like a bunch of arrogant rubes.

10 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

They could bring back d20 Rokugan!!

Yes, I'm kidding

Ya know, for all the grief that d20 Rokugan gets, it's actually one of the best versions IMO.
Sure, d20 as a system is highly flawed and full of problems, but that version of Rokugan was full of character options and setting flavor (particularly when it came to the supernatural - AEG has never treated the magic of their world as well as WotC did).

5 hours ago, blaquelotus said:

I realize I'm way late to bring out this comment but I wanted to say that I agree. The Isawa pacifist thing was a bit ridiculous for the setting in my opinion. I get that it is a spiritual clan but the Phoenix are still part of the ruling caste of a warrior society. I'd prefer that they maybe put a focus the clan on harmony. Harmony between the kami and humankind. Harmony between bushido and the mystical. Harmony between the Clans (in terms of general Clan political strategy), etc. Basically I'd prefer the Phoenix to always seek peaceful, balanced or mutually beneficial solutions but when that's not possible they're ready for war, and they march to end it quickly.

Along those lines I hope that the Phoenix lore moves away from the Isawa being the defacto ruling family and adjust the story so that the Isawa and the Shiba rule together (elemental masters and the Champion) from the start.

Finally, even if players decide they want to corrupt the Phoenix again (which I hope they won't but I'm not everybody) I hope the story writers use a bit more restraint in jumping the Isawa right into blood magic. Give that sort of thing a little time. But again I hope it doesn't happen.

"Clan X and Harmony" is a great way to flesh out the clans while making them work towards making Empire a better place, even if in conflicting ways. Social Harmony is extremely important concept in eastern Asian conformist societies, and you could easily say that the most important thing that Kami brought to their subjects was culture and social harmony, turning a bunch of warring tribes into (mostly) harmonious Empire. You could have Crane and "Harmony through virtue and social contract", Scorpion and "Greater Harmony through smaller chaos and sacrifice" (Yes, I vastly prefer bittersweet heroic Scorpion protagonists to trollpions, but trollpions , though both make great characters as long as both are included), Lion and "Harmony through virtue and justice, brought by sword", "Harmony by personal enlightenment", and so on. You could do it for all the clans, and it makes a great axis for conflicts while avoiding THE SPIDER PROBLEM (a faction that doesn't include "Empire's bestinterest" in their agenda).

10 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

AEG has never treated the magic of their world as well as WotC did

I'm really happy 4e explicitly denied the concept of void kami that 2e introduced, tbh. I also quite like how 4e brought in optional rules for religious devotion, purity, and worldliness.

3 minutes ago, BitRunr said:

I'm really happy 4e explicitly denied the concept of void kami that 2e introduced, tbh. I also quite like how 4e brought in optional rules for religious devotion, purity, and worldliness.

It didn't explicitly deny anything of the sort. It left it vague and undefined so you could decide if there were Void kami or not in your own game.
As to the second part, you'll have to elaborate as I'm unsure what you're referring to.

5 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

It didn't explicitly deny anything of the sort. It left it vague and undefined so you could decide if there were Void kami or not in your own game.

Nope. Book Of Void.

Quote

Shugenja, the practitioners of magic in Rokugan, recognize the Elements and the importance of their relative balance in all things. This is because they have an innate understanding and connection with the Elemental kami, the semi-sentient spiritual beings that both embody and reflect the essences of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. However, there are no Void kami. Rather, the Void itself is semi-sentient, incorporating the collective consciousness of all things.

5 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

As to the second part, you'll have to elaborate as I'm unsure what you're referring to.

Quote

The basic L5R rules for spellcasting are designed to be fairly simple and intuitive, allowing the game to move quickly without bogging down on remembering obscure rules or making detailed calculations. However, the downside of this approach is that it makes spellcasting very “utilitarian,” which goes against the setting’s theme of magic being intimately tied into religion and the spirit world. Accordingly, GMs and players who wish to add more depth to the depiction of shugenja in Rokugan can opt to add some or all of the following optional rules to their game.

That would be what I'm referring to. Imperial Archives. I won't say I like being a stickler on applying them, but I like the concept of those rules existing in some form.

If I recall correctly, Imperial Archives had some optional stuff (a lot of written by @Kinzen , though I'm not sure if THIS particular bit was it), including some rules about purity and whatnot.

If I had to redesign Shugenja (and while technically I should, I really don't want to because I'm not interested in Shuggies as player characters), I would probably give them a Purity bar that would be used up by casting spells and refilled by doing religious stuff. Think about Spiritual Capital created by taking certain actions (thus reinforcing the fluff of shugenja in the actual gameplay; L5R rpg was very bad at reinforcing its fluff through actual gameplay, leading to weird distortions) and allowing you to take certain actions. Purity would have an upper limit that would scale upwards with Rank, and better spells would cost more.

Huh. Maybe I'm remembering something from 3rd Edition then...
Ah well, touché.