idk - I really like that Shugenja are more priests than mages in Rokugan. I think they should keep that theme. The best Shugenja I had in one of my games was one where, I explained that Shugenja are priests and that they can do many awesome things, but that they don't do anything directly. They appeal to the Kami to do this. We sorta threw out the "spell book" from the game entirely and worked every situation out as a sense / commune / summon allowing him to creatively ask for what he felt was best at each situation, and to roll for it as a basic prayer + raises to the desired effect. He would always give offerings when ever the group traveled, and his tendency / obligation to do so allowed easy hooks and introduce new characters as they can meet others who are giving offerings.

Anyone could perform basic cleansing. I don't disagree with that. It's important to also realize the duality of religion. Some temples are Shinto type shrines which would be run by priests, and some are monastic shrines that are run by monks. There really is no western equivalent, even if you think Druids are closer... It's still not the same.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

This bit is fairly important to keep alive, because it is one of the building blocks of the warrior elite and thus the feudal society. If you make samurai legitimately versatile, then they will stop being a "warrior elite" in the strictest sense, and you will quickly end up with some sweet-sweet neo-feudalism. And while I'am all ready to redesign the whole Rokugani society, I'am also fairly sure that the majority of the other players are not exactly up to this task.

Less 'up to' and more 'vehemently opposed' , if you please.

5 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

This bit is fairly important to keep alive, because it is one of the building blocks of the warrior elite and thus the feudal society. If you make samurai legitimately versatile, then they will stop being a "warrior elite" in the strictest sense, and you will quickly end up with some sweet-sweet neo-feudalism. And while I'am all ready to redesign the whole Rokugani society, I'am also fairly sure that the majority of the other players are not exactly up to this task.

I'm talking about "he is a sword master, so obviously he can't do origami" and vice versa, not "we can do stuff that commoners exist for". A good example of the trend and damage it did was the outrage at Hotaru being able to both shoot a bow, use yari and know how to politics, like these things are mutually exclusive for a samurai and you either are Mirumoto Bob The Swordmaster or Asako Jane The Loreperson.

1 minute ago, WHW said:

I'm talking about "he is a sword master, so obviously he can't do origami" and vice versa, not "we can do stuff that commoners exist for". A good example of the trend and damage it did was the outrage at Hotaru being able to both shoot a bow, use yari and know how to politics, like these things are mutually exclusive for a samurai and you either are Mirumoto Bob The Swordmaster or Asako Jane The Loreperson.

Where is this trend coming from?

The rpg schools give access to non bugei skills, and there are plenty of fiction examples of well rounded samurai.

4 minutes ago, WHW said:

I'm talking about "he is a sword master, so obviously he can't do origami" and vice versa, not "we can do stuff that commoners exist for".

I was mostly referring to samurai being able to do non-warrior-y stuff at adequate levels, at which point they are not a warrior elite but white collars with military training. It is one of the defining features of a warrior elite that its members are suffering from crippling overspecialization.

36 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I see you have little familiarity with the proud Phoenix Tradition of Miniskirt Invention... or the Moshi Bikini Brigade...

I wasn't familiar with it until you mentioned it; and now I wish I could take back the Googles.

Also, Togashi Korimi.

5 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Where is this trend coming from?

The rpg schools give access to non bugei skills, and there are plenty of fiction examples of well rounded samurai.

Probably from the removal of incentives (mastery abilities) to buy "flavor" skills in 4th Ed.

Intelligence is a hard-sell for any bushi unless you need a high Fire for prereqs. Lore is all but worthless since the number of potential Lores to choose from is practically endless and you gain no incentives to increase it past 1. Even some job-relevant skills, like Spellcraft, will hit a "usefulness wall" (Spellcraft's is 5 - there's never a good reason to raise it higher, period), etc.

Combine the above with the fact that increasing things gets expensive fast, and you end up with hyper-focused characters, because Rank techniques offer you the ability to do one thing (toned down this way on purpose) and you just don't have the extra xp points to put into background/flavor/etc skills.

IMHO

6 minutes ago, WHW said:

I'm talking about "he is a sword master, so obviously he can't do origami" and vice versa, not "we can do stuff that commoners exist for". A good example of the trend and damage it did was the outrage at Hotaru being able to both shoot a bow, use yari and know how to politics, like these things are mutually exclusive for a samurai and you either are Mirumoto Bob The Swordmaster or Asako Jane The Loreperson.

Was there outrage at her shooting a bow? Or her firing 1 shot to kill a Clan Champion?

Personally I would expect a samurai to be well versed in all weapons. It's one of the tropes of Samurai fiction that western Knights don't often have. Western fiction typically gets bland in the weapons department, with super specialization. In D&D you are rarely able to use multiple weapons, and same for classes in MMORPG. Samurai are unique in that we expect them to be masters of the sword, polearm, bow, horse riding, ect.

The problem with Hotaru wasn't so much that she could use a bow, but that she could use a bow to 1 shot someone of such rank. It felt extremely anti-climactic to me, not a suitable death for a warrior and not realistic on the battlefield.

Just now, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I wasn't familiar with it until you mentioned it; and now I wish I could take back the Googles.

Also, Togashi Korimi.

tattoos have to be uncovered to function. It's in the rules.

10 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

tattoos have to be uncovered to function. It's in the rules.

I mean... it is. I mean, the artist even went strictly against Rokugani custom and let Korimi keep her long hair so as to modestly cover her up. She's supposed to be bald as a monk - the men never get that kind of consideration.

Besides, no one makes a fuss over the examples I listed before, so I still don't understand this idea that there is cringyness going on.

2 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Probably from the removal of incentives (mastery abilities) to buy "flavor" skills in 4th Ed.

Intelligence is a hard-sell for any bushi unless you need a high Fire for prereqs. Lore is all but worthless since the number of potential Lores to choose from is practically endless and you gain no incentives to increase it past 1. Even some job-relevant skills, like Spellcraft, will hit a "usefulness wall" (Spellcraft's is 5 - there's never a good reason to raise it higher, period), etc.

Combine the above with the fact that increasing things gets expensive fast, and you end up with hyper-focused characters, because Rank techniques offer you the ability to do one thing (toned down this way on purpose) and you just don't have the extra xp points to put into background/flavor/etc skills.

IMHO

Yeah, I see what you mean if we're talking ranks beyond 3. My pc's usually have a laundry list of rank 3 high skills and one or two high weapon/bugei skills.

11 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I wasn't familiar with it until you mentioned it; and now I wish I could take back the Googles.

Also, Togashi Korimi.

Looked her up. I would definitely be on board with bringing her into the lcg. She had some great cards in the old game... for the defensive abilities, of course.

5 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It is one of the defining features of a warrior elite that its members are suffering from crippling overspecialization.

Citation needed?

No, wait. Let me give a citation of my own, because this is something I actually know something about in real life.

From Pantagruel, this is an explanation of the education of an early-modern European warrior aristocrat. It's presented in a deliberately over-the-top way as an in-joke to other people who would have suffered through a similar education; nonetheless most of what's listed here would have been expected to be familiar to people of that class in Europe in the 1500s.

Wherefore, my son, I admonish thee to employ thy youth to profit as well as thou canst, both in thy studies and in virtue. Thou art at Paris, where the laudable examples of many brave men may stir up thy mind to gallant actions, and hast likewise for thy tutor and pedagogue the learned Epistemon, who by his lively and vocal documents may instruct thee in the arts and sciences.

I intend, and will have it so, that thou learn the languages perfectly; first of all the Greek, as Quintilian will have it; secondly, the Latin; and then the Hebrew, for the Holy Scripture sake; and then the Chaldee and Arabic likewise, and that thou frame thy style in Greek in imitation of Plato, and for the Latin after Cicero. Let there be no history which thou shalt not have ready in thy memory; unto the prosecuting of which design, books of cosmography will be very conducible and help thee much. Of the liberal arts of geometry, arithmetic, and music, I gave thee some taste when thou wert yet little, and not above five or six years old. Proceed further in them, and learn the remainder if thou canst. As for astronomy, study all the rules thereof. Let pass, nevertheless, the divining and judicial astrology, and the art of Lullius, as being nothing else but plain abuses and vanities. As for the civil law, of that I would have thee to know the texts by heart, and then to confer them with philosophy.

Now, in matter of the knowledge of the works of nature, I would have thee to study that exactly, and that so there be no sea, river, nor fountain, of which thou dost not know the fishes; all the fowls of the air; all the several kinds of shrubs and trees, whether in forests or orchards; all the sorts of herbs and flowers that grow upon the ground; all the various metals that are hid within the bowels of the earth; together with all the diversity of precious stones that are to be seen in the orient and south parts of the world. Let nothing of all these be hidden from thee. Then fail not most carefully to peruse the books of the Greek, Arabian, and Latin physicians, not despising the Talmudists and Cabalists; and by frequent anatomies get thee the perfect knowledge of the other world, called the microcosm, which is man. And at some hours of the day apply thy mind to the study of the Holy Scriptures; first in Greek, the New Testament, with the Epistles of the Apostles; and then the Old Testament in Hebrew. In brief, let me see thee an abyss and bottomless pit of knowledge; for from henceforward, as thou growest great and becomest a man, thou must part from this tranquillity and rest of study, thou must learn chivalry, warfare, and the exercises of the field

TL;DR: European warrior elites were some educated badasses.

1 minute ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Yeah, I see what you mean if we're talking ranks beyond 3. My pc's usually have a laundry list of rank 3 high skills and one or two high weapon/bugei skills.

I'm even one of those role-players who enjoys having a whole bunch of skills that will do me no good in play, but showcase what my character is actually trained in and good at.
For example, I like the idea of, say, Artisan: Painting at 4 and Perform: Flute at 2 - otherwise worthless skill levels, but it showcases that, while I'm artistic in both areas, I'm better at Painting.

If you actually looked at my character sheets? Almost nothing I don't need to do my job is above a 1, and if it is, it's because there was a good Mastery Ability or I needed it to get into a Path and/or Advanced School.
There's just not enough xp to go around to build how I *want* to build, without letting min/max minded players go nuts.

2 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I mean... it is.

Besides, no one makes a fuss over the examples I listed before, so I still don't understand this idea that there is cringyness going on.

The metal tube top was a little over the top, but the Moshi was a deliberate design choice.

So I can mostly agree.

2 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I'm even one of those role-players who enjoys having a whole bunch of skills that will do me no good in play, but showcase what my character is actually trained in and good at.
For example, I like the idea of, say, Artisan: Painting at 4 and Perform: Flute at 2 - otherwise worthless skill levels, but it showcases that, while I'm artistic in both areas, I'm better at Painting.

If you actually looked at my character sheets? Almost nothing I don't need to do my job is above a 1, and if it is, it's because there was a good Mastery Ability or I needed it to get into a Path and/or Advanced School.
There's just not enough xp to go around to build how I *want* to build, without letting min/max minded players go nuts.

I just...can't take characters without ettiquete and courtier, even the Crabs

5 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I just...can't take characters without ettiquete and courtier, even the Crabs

I (fairly) recently played a backwoods Hiruma Bushi, in a politics-very-heavy game, who never had any Sincerity, Etiquette, or Courtier at all. Obtuse and everything. Only High Skills on the page were Investigation and Medicine...
It was a blast!

7 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

Citation needed?

No, wait. Let me give a citation of my own, because this is something I actually know something about in real life.

From Pantagruel, this is an explanation of the education of an early-modern European warrior aristocrat. It's presented in a deliberately over-the-top way as an in-joke to other people who would have suffered through a similar education; nonetheless most of what's listed here would have been expected to be familiar to people of that class in Europe in the 1500s.

Wherefore, my son, I admonish thee to employ thy youth to profit as well as thou canst, both in thy studies and in virtue. Thou art at Paris, where the laudable examples of many brave men may stir up thy mind to gallant actions, and hast likewise for thy tutor and pedagogue the learned Epistemon, who by his lively and vocal documents may instruct thee in the arts and sciences.

I intend, and will have it so, that thou learn the languages perfectly; first of all the Greek, as Quintilian will have it; secondly, the Latin; and then the Hebrew, for the Holy Scripture sake; and then the Chaldee and Arabic likewise, and that thou frame thy style in Greek in imitation of Plato, and for the Latin after Cicero. Let there be no history which thou shalt not have ready in thy memory; unto the prosecuting of which design, books of cosmography will be very conducible and help thee much. Of the liberal arts of geometry, arithmetic, and music, I gave thee some taste when thou wert yet little, and not above five or six years old. Proceed further in them, and learn the remainder if thou canst. As for astronomy, study all the rules thereof. Let pass, nevertheless, the divining and judicial astrology, and the art of Lullius, as being nothing else but plain abuses and vanities. As for the civil law, of that I would have thee to know the texts by heart, and then to confer them with philosophy.

Now, in matter of the knowledge of the works of nature, I would have thee to study that exactly, and that so there be no sea, river, nor fountain, of which thou dost not know the fishes; all the fowls of the air; all the several kinds of shrubs and trees, whether in forests or orchards; all the sorts of herbs and flowers that grow upon the ground; all the various metals that are hid within the bowels of the earth; together with all the diversity of precious stones that are to be seen in the orient and south parts of the world. Let nothing of all these be hidden from thee. Then fail not most carefully to peruse the books of the Greek, Arabian, and Latin physicians, not despising the Talmudists and Cabalists; and by frequent anatomies get thee the perfect knowledge of the other world, called the microcosm, which is man. And at some hours of the day apply thy mind to the study of the Holy Scriptures; first in Greek, the New Testament, with the Epistles of the Apostles; and then the Old Testament in Hebrew. In brief, let me see thee an abyss and bottomless pit of knowledge; for from henceforward, as thou growest great and becomest a man, thou must part from this tranquillity and rest of study, thou must learn chivalry, warfare, and the exercises of the field

TL;DR: European warrior elites were some educated badasses.

If memory serves, Dark Ages Vampire had a skill for general academic knowledge that noble pc's were supposed to have a certain number of points in.

Maybe L5R should do something similar.

Like many of these entries of mine, comment about sacred cow of super experts was springed by reading somewhere a thing someone said, which has been reccuring experience for my in my l5r fandom life - "A character X wouldn't be skilled in Y, because X is a [courtier bushi origami ninja], and because so, training them in this thing would be SHAMEFUL WASTE OF RESOURCES and doing anything else than your main job skill is a DISGRACE and WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE".

Again, RPG tends to distort the setting, and RPG fandom does it triply, taking stuff to the massive extremes. I also heard tons of defenses of the RPG skill system (its granularity, mainly) boiling down to "because setting".

As for the Elite Warriors Caste - one of things that "kind of don't make sense" in Rokugan is the size and variety of Samurai caste (with which I'm OK) - there are lots and lots of samurai that are not really professional soldiers.

4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

If memory serves, Dark Ages Vampire had a skill for general academic knowledge that noble pc's were supposed to have a certain number of points in.

Maybe L5R should do something similar.

One of my many reworks of the L5R 4th edition (which, at this point, isn't very similar to the original) included reworking the skill list and consolidating them. Lore: XYZ is just Lore, Weapon skills are just Budo encompassing all forms of combat, including unarmed and archery, and so on.

1 minute ago, WHW said:

One of my many reworks of the L5R 4th edition (which, at this point, isn't very similar to the original) included reworking the skill list and consolidating them. Lore: XYZ is just Lore, Weapon skills are just Budo encompassing all forms of combat, including unarmed and archery, and so on.

I like the idea.

If the L5R rpg is NDS, you could see something similar become standard.

Honestly I don't care if they go with NDS or R&K or "roll x narrative dice, keep y of them" (lol), or whatever. I just hope that the system will be done from the start, fresh and anew, instead of trying to recapture 1st Edition and being drowned by sacred cows of bad design and "because 1st ED did it this way / because setting / dunno i like crane".

Yeah, the game had 4 editions of copy/paste. I hope for something entirely different too.

18 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

From Pantagruel, this is an explanation of the education of an early-modern European warrior aristocrat.

Pantraguel? Isn't that a renaissance-era fantasy story with all the trappings of being a renaissance-era fantasy story? I mean, I don't want to nitpick here, but it is like judging samurai from Hagakure.

3 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Yeah, the game had 4 editions of copy/paste. I hope for something entirely different too.

They could bring back d20 Rokugan!!

Yes, I'm kidding

As long as the system ends up fitting the setting I'll learn to love it....even when im ignoring it or breaking it.