41 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

Minor clans, playable Shadowlands, playable nonhumans.

Do you dislike the very idea of minor clans, or just the way they were implemented?

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Do you dislike the very idea of minor clans, or just the way they were implemented?

Both.

Just now, Kakita Shiro said:

Both.

Could you elaborate more? What was it you found so distasteful?

Just now, JJ48 said:

Could you elaborate more? What was it you found so distasteful?

Mostly that they are unnecessary.

2 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

Mostly that they are unnecessary.

Perhaps, but I'd point out that the same can be said for a good many aspects of the setting, up to and including the Great Clans!

I mean, do we really need the Crab Clan? Rather than have an entire clan dedicated to defending against the Shadowlands, couldn't the Emperor have just had a wall built and manned it with soldiers drawn from all the clans?

Or what about the Unicorn? If they had stayed away and never returned to Rokugan, the setting would be a little different, but would it be impossible to have the setting? I think not.

Maybe I'm a bit biased, considering my chosen clan started out as an alliance of minor clans, but I rather like at least some of the minor clans. Some can have specializations that might make things a bit unbalanced if you were to give it to one of the Great Clans. Others can simply help the story by allowing points of view that are outside the Great Clans, and lacking certain biases (while perhaps gaining others).

I can see how they could get out of hand if used poorly, but personally I just think that means FFG should be careful in how they use them; not eliminate them altogether.

I find the setting more plausible when there are more Minor Clans. I understand that various issues of game design put the brakes on this, but it's much more realistic to me if there are at least twice as many small clans as big ones, acting as a buffer/set of playing pieces between the large powers of the empire.

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Perhaps, but I'd point out that the same can be said for a good many aspects of the setting, up to and including the Great Clans!

I mean, do we really need the Crab Clan? Rather than have an entire clan dedicated to defending against the Shadowlands, couldn't the Emperor have just had a wall built and manned it with soldiers drawn from all the clans?

Or what about the Unicorn? If they had stayed away and never returned to Rokugan, the setting would be a little different, but would it be impossible to have the setting? I think not.

I've had these thoughts as well.

Also since the minor clans are usually much poorer and less influential than the great clans you get a different perspective on the empire.

Just now, phillos said:

Also since the minor clans are usually much poorer and less influential than the great clans you get a different perspective on the empire.

You can get that from a peasant.

That's not the same thing.

5 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I find the setting more plausible when there are more Minor Clans. I understand that various issues of game design put the brakes on this, but it's much more realistic to me if there are at least twice as many small clans as big ones, acting as a buffer/set of playing pieces between the large powers of the empire.

Lots of smaller clans allow to borrow from the contemporary politics and power dynamics, allowing for cool proxy wars and Rokugan equivalent of "cold wars", too.

3 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I find the setting more plausible when there are more Minor Clans. I understand that various issues of game design put the brakes on this, but it's much more realistic to me if there are at least twice as many small clans as big ones, acting as a buffer/set of playing pieces between the large powers of the empire.

I prefer it if this kind of thing exists within the clans, not between them. Inside the 'Bayushi' family are hundreds of families that are formally called Bayushi but have their own lands, ancestry, name, and rivals, all owing allegiance to the Bayushi Daimyo or some vassal of his. Little clans in between the great clans get swallowed up and become like these, because that's how Feudalism works: you offer your allegiance to someone in return for his protection. Anything less than a great clan can't protect itself against a great clan, so anything less than a great clan has to offer allegiance to a great clan. There is nothing great lords like better than forcing lesser lords to swear fealty.

1 minute ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I prefer it if this kind of thing exists within the clans, not between them.

That too -- but I don't see those options as mutually incompatible.

1 minute ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I prefer it if this kind of thing exists within the clans, not between them. Inside the 'Bayushi' family are hundreds of families that are formally called Bayushi but have their own lands, ancestry, name, and rivals, all owing allegiance to the Bayushi Daimyo or some vassal of his. Little clans in between the great clans get swallowed up and become like these, because that's how Feudalism works: you offer your allegiance to someone in return for his protection. Anything less than a great clan can't protect itself against a great clan, so anything less than a great clan has to offer allegiance to a great clan. There is nothing great lords like better than forcing lesser lords to swear fealty.

This is not a sacred cow I would like to be slain, but actually a sacred cow to be introduced - I love all things Yakuza, Triads and Mafia, and I think that Rokugan could use some of those that aren't Kolat.

5 minutes ago, phillos said:

Also since the minor clans are usually much poorer and less influential than the great clans you get a different perspective on the empire.

That too is contained within the great clan, because any given family living on its lands can be as poor or rich as you like. It's not like every Doji is rich: only the actual close relatives of the clan champion. If you're a Samurai who owes allegiance to one of the Doji Daimyo's vassals you call yourself Doji, but you could come from the smallest little patch of land in the most backward part of craneville and barely have the money for a horse.

But they are still connected to a wealthy and influential family. It's still not the same thing even if a great clan family itself is suffering because it lacks resources. The setting is much more interesting if it has more granularity.

10 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

That too -- but I don't see those options as mutually incompatible.

True. I think I wrote elsewhere that I like the idea that 'minor clans' are mostly families that have mixed allegiances, such that they are protected by the great clan system but don't fit neatly into it. For example, when a family that owes allegiance to the Bayushi inherits lands inside the Crab because of the usual weird dynastic stuff. They end up being the Lobster clan or whatever, because they have to accommodate themselves with the locals as well as holding on to their allegiance to their old lord. But it's also quite possible for families in out of the way places to potentially have independence.

I just think that independence is way more plausibly de facto rather than formal. It makes much more sense for a lord of some remote mountain fief to call himself a Bayushi and just do his own thing than insist on being an 'Ox' on his own. This is a setting where most of the time there are tens of thousands of great clan samurai sitting around wishing they had someone to fight. I don't see how under normal circumstances smaller clans don't get eaten.

I"m in the pro-mc camp.

I'd miss clans like the Hare and the Falcon, and the setting has more than enough room to accomodate them.

I like the Minor Clans, and always thought AEG slipped up by not having them be a little bit bigger in the game -- as followers. Set up each clan with an associated minor clan, and put in for an odd theme to go with, a la the honorable Monkey working with the Scorpion.

1 minute ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

No, they aren't. I think I wrote elsewhere that I like the idea that 'minor clans' are mostly families that have mixed allegiances, such that they are protected by the great clan system but don't fit neatly into it. For example, when a family that owes allegiance to the Bayushi inherits lands inside the Crab because of the usual weird dynastic stuff. They end up being the Lobster clan or whatever, because they have to accommodate themselves with the locals as well as holding on to their allegiance to their old lord. But it's also quite possible for families in out of the way places to potentially have independence.

I just think that independence is way more plausibly de facto rather than formal. It makes much more sense for a lord of some remote mountain fief to call himself a Bayushi and just do his own thing than insist on being an 'Ox' on his own. This is a setting where most of the time there are tens of thousands of great clan samurai sitting around wishing they had someone to fight. I don't see how under normal circumstances smaller clans don't get eaten.

Because the emperor said so. GC's cannot make war on MC without permission

2 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

I don't see how under normal circumstances smaller clans don't get eaten.

Protecting smaller clans from bigger clans sounds like another good way to give Lions something to do with their superduper military. Would even allow them to play the "superior tactican" card, because I imagine anyone trying to defend a minor clan against mobilized Great Clan is at ginormous disadvantage. "But then, a small group of Lion volunteers managed to protect the honor of Mini Clan, and thus earned their eternal gratitude..."

Too bad Lions are the primary aggressor towards the small clans :D.

22 minutes ago, phillos said:

But they are still connected to a wealthy and influential family. It's still not the same thing even if a great clan family itself is suffering because it lacks resources. The setting is much more interesting if it has more granularity.

I don't think being 'connected' to the Doji really means what you think it does. Remember: there are tens of thousands of Samurai who call themselves 'Doji'. Having the name gets you nothing from the clan leaders. They are not really your family and they probably don't know you from Bob. You have your lands: that's what you have thanks to their generosity, and if that makes you poor then that's that and you should still be grateful. You don't ask them for favors: they give you orders.

1 minute ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Because the emperor said so. GC's cannot make war on MC without permission

Yeah, if you keep that in the setting. It's a reboot, remember -- I , at least, am talking about what I would like to see/think would be realistic, not about what the old fluff said. If you want to include minor clans, you can do that via saying they are established and mantained by imperial decree, like in the old setting. But I was mostly interested in Kinzen's idea that it was more realistic to have some smaller powers as well, which I was questioning. It does, of course, depend a lot on how much warfare is tolerated in general.

I think one of the reasons I am a little suspicious of including minor clans too much is that I would really like to see the heterogeneity and disunity of the Great clans themselves played up. The more we have tons of clans, the more temptation there is to make all conflict inter-clan conflict, which would be a shame.

11 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

I like the Minor Clans, and always thought AEG slipped up by not having them be a little bit bigger in the game -- as followers. Set up each clan with an associated minor clan, and put in for an odd theme to go with, a la the honorable Monkey working with the Scorpion.

I also would have no problem at all with having minor clans that are integrated into the chains of allegiance. But at that point how are they different from clan families like the Soshi or Mirumoto?

You have your lands, or more probably, the person who has you written into their household owns land. I imagine that most of samurai are not actually taking care of land and are more of a glorified retainers and experts who get to sleep, eat and wear the best clothes affordable by their superior in exchange for doing their job. Typical Doji Bob probably sleeps where he is employed.