Played the final game of a store championship against an attani list. Using fenn, dengar and inaldra. Attani on everything and overclocked and inspiring on dengar. He was giving a focus back to fenn after fenn would fire by overclocking. Inaldra stayed in the corner just supplying focus. In one game he said he built up 6 stress on dengar but had no effect on how he needed to play. Its basically manaroo in attani form and utterly brutal.

Why had this not been done before? Was inaldra needed for a cheap enough attani?

10 hours ago, thestggrwng said:

Why had this not been done before? Was inaldra needed for a cheap enough attani?

Yes.

This has been another episode of short answers to long questions...

In all seriousness, only having to spend 13 [edit:] 14 points on a focus token generator is clutch, because it lets you have both Fenn and Dengaroo. Fenn is way undercosted, and so is Dengar if he can continually pull those shenanigans [edit: meaning infinite focus via OCR4]. Competitive X-wing is moneyball. Cost is the great equalizer.

At least he won't be able to get as many stress tokens as pre-nerf Dengaroo was. I got up to around 50 in one game, shooting at stealth device x7 defenders.

14 points. 15 base, -2 for light title, +1 for AM.

3 hours ago, thestggrwng said:

Played the final game of a store championship against an attani list. Using fenn, dengar and inaldra. Attani on everything and overclocked and inspiring on dengar. He was giving a focus back to fenn after fenn would fire by overclocking. Inaldra stayed in the corner just supplying focus. In one game he said he built up 6 stress on dengar but had no effect on how he needed to play. Its basically manaroo in attani form and utterly brutal.

Why had this not been done before? Was inaldra needed for a cheap enough attani?

I actually think no. While Inaldra a is cheaper than Kaato Leachos, it's only by 2 points, and it's not like Scum is hurting for points in most lists. Inaldra is no Manaroo, she can go down quick and leave Dengar sans actions for a few turns. That's not to say the list isn't very strong, it is, but I don't think the Kaato version was somehow fundamentally worse than Inaldra in a major way.

... and Inaldra wasn't one shotted because......

At the very least chase her out of green maneuvers.

What were the rest of Dengar's upgrades? I'd put plasmas and chips, and stay at 97p

3 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:

Yes.

This has been another episode of short answers to long questions...

In all seriousness, only having to spend 13 points on a focus token generator is clutch, because it lets you have both Fenn and Dengaroo. Fenn is way undercosted, and so is Dengar if he can continually pull those shenanigans. Competitive X-wing is moneyball. Cost is the great equalizer.

At least he won't be able to get as many stress tokens as pre-nerf Dengaroo was. I got up to around 50 in one game, shooting at stealth device x7 defenders.

This

I'm not convinced this will be as silly as Dengaroo, but Inaldra is a lot better than Kaato- The two extra points enable a lot more flexible Dengar builds, and Inaldra is much better equipped to stay out of trouble than Kaato, with a 1-turn to help slow roll early on, and with all of the banks green she's better at running away while still shedding stress.

I've been running a Kaato version for a few months and I'm surprised it hasn't really been a more popular archetype - Dengar, Fenn and Mindlink are ridiculously efficient and even without the rock-bottom cost of Light Scyk Inaldra you have enough points with Kaato to make Dengar effective.

My build has been:

- 98 -
Dengar w/ Mindlink, R4 Agromech, Gonk, title
Fenn Rau w/ Mindlink, title, Autothrusters
Kaato Leeachos w/ Mindlink

Gonk is key to making it work since you don't have the points to build Dengar to out-punch alpha strikers but you can use the build's efficiency and durability to win in the long run.

Inspired by this thread, and tired of getting stomped by Dengar/Tel and several Fenn Rau lists, I decided to use my JM5k for the first time ever. I bought it a long time ago, but felt a little "dirty" using it, so I had never played it before. I also had a Protectorate Starfighter that I had used only once, so I decided to have them team up. I have Inaldra available, but my next SC doesn't allow C-Roc stuff as it hasn't come out in Spain yet, so I'll have to use Kaa'to. I tried this list yesteday.

Dengar, Attani, Overclocked, Inspiring recruit, Inertial Dampeners, P1

Fenn, Attani, AT, Title

Kaa'to, Attani

I played against:

Asajj, PTL, Gonk, Gyroscopic, Title

Torkil, TLT, Dengar, Slicers

Unkar Plutt, Tractor, PA, IA

It's not a very sharp list, but has a lot of tricks. I had ZERO experience with the JM5k, and just one game with the Protectorate, but even though I made some mistakes, I was able to beat him twice out of three games. The 2 games I won I only lost Fenn once, and the one I lost was due to a very well played trick by my opponent, when he made me bump Fenn with Unkar, tractor beamed me, put me down to PS0 with Torkil, and as Asajj also hit me, I got 2 TB tokens, meaning I got only one evade die, and was auto hit by the TLT. Fenn died in that one round.

I feel the list has a lot of potential.

Hi everyone,

i play a similar list for the last 3 months and are very happy with it (i won a 32-players-StoreChampionship, a 40-players-GNK-Tournament and made 21. of 340 at European Championships)

In germany it is known as the S.W.AT. (Scum with Attanni)..ok all Attanni-Users are Scum but i needed a short name . Like a SWAT Police Team every squad member has different roles.

There you have Dengar the "door-opener"

Dengar (33)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Hotshot Co-pilot (4)
R4 Agromech (2)
Punishing One (12)

Dengar shoots first and forces the enemy ship to spend the focus even if he did not roll any focus-sides. I often used a focus for the R4 and did not use the targetlock immediately. My opponents often did shoot back, because they did not have a focus

The second crew member ist Fenn the "Guy with the Shotgun"

Fenn Rau (28)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)

The standard Fenn is (as you know) a beast in close combat (like a shotgunner). 5 red dices (yes please....who needs proton rockets? Yes i am looking at you Darth Vader )

Without a focus for defense he makes usually more damage.

Last but not least...Kaa´to the "medic / radio-operator"

He is the coordinator. He spends the focus to let the other guys getting things done. He is cheap, he has one job..keeping the hardhitters alive.

Kaa'to Leeachos (15)
Attanni Mindlink (1)

On the other he is able to kill ships as well... as a finisher (2 Dengars, 1 Bossk and 1 Assaj...till now )

I will replace him by Inaldra for the 2-points-Inibid.

I have 7 tournament videos on my YouTube Channel with this squad (1 with english subtitles) (the new videos are in a better quality because of my new camera)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaaYWnpHrGE&t=938s

Kind regards from germany

2 hours ago, Backfire84 said:

Hi everyone,

i play a similar list for the last 3 months and are very happy with it (i won a 32-players-StoreChampionship, a 40-players-GNK-Tournament and made 21. of 340 at European Championships)

In germany it is known as the S.W.AT. (Scum with Attanni)..ok all Attanni-Users are Scum but i needed a short name . Like a SWAT Police Team every squad member has different roles.

There you have Dengar the "door-opener"

Dengar (33)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Hotshot Co-pilot (4)
R4 Agromech (2)
Punishing One (12)

Dengar shoots first and forces the enemy ship to spend the focus even if he did not roll any focus-sides. I often used a focus for the R4 and did not use the targetlock immediately. My opponents often did shoot back, because they did not have a focus

The second crew member ist Fenn the "Guy with the Shotgun"

Fenn Rau (28)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)

The standard Fenn is (as you know) a beast in close combat (like a shotgunner). 5 red dices (yes please....who needs proton rockets? Yes i am looking at you Darth Vader )

Without a focus for defense he makes usually more damage.

Last but not least...Kaa´to the "medic / radio-operator"

He is the coordinator. He spends the focus to let the other guys getting things done. He is cheap, he has one job..keeping the hardhitters alive.

Kaa'to Leeachos (15)
Attanni Mindlink (1)

On the other he is able to kill ships as well... as a finisher (2 Dengars, 1 Bossk and 1 Assaj...till now )

I will replace him by Inaldra for the 2-points-Inibid.

I have 7 tournament videos on my YouTube Channel with this squad (1 with english subtitles) (the new videos are in a better quality because of my new camera)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaaYWnpHrGE&t=938s

Kind regards from germany

I'm not done watching the video yet, but it seems you played HSCP wrong. Enemy Fenn should have got rid of the first focus before rolling defence dice, and spent the 2nd focus on Dengar's shot, then he would have no focus for your Fenn's shot. Right?

PS In the game vs Rau Boats

Inspiring recruit seems pointless. Don't be scared to go all in on stress.

1 hour ago, sploosh said:

Inspiring recruit seems pointless. Don't be scared to go all in on stress.

He found it useful against higher firepower lists. Rather than just tanking the shot for the return shot, it allowed him to have an action to barrel roll to arc dodge. Especially late game where he was loaded with stress and the last ship on the table.

You know, when the FFG designers were developing Fenn Rau, you'd think they'd have noticed something regarding its closest cousin, the Interceptor:

The PS1 generic was trash
The PS9 pilot, for +9pts, was fantastic.

Well, they changed the costings to make the Protectorate, they decided that they needed to get the balance better.
The PS1 generic was solid.
The PS9 pilot, for +8pts... what exactly were they expecting, here?

It's bugged me for a while.

Use K4 and Countermeasures on Dengar. Better efficiency. Most of the time you can time the stress by the time Inaldra is dead or Fenn is dead meanwhile you have full mods.

List already won two store champs in my area. Many actually are bidding against the mirror match and dropping Countermeasures to be at 96 or puting ID on him for 97 because losing the initiative is huge. There must had been about 6 of us at the last store champ running it.

It does very much fly like Dengaroo. It can feel impossible to beat if you don't have the list that can take the punch from Dengar and Fenn on your way to inaldra. It's not like Manaroo was, you have two ships punishing you on your way and you'll probably be dead before you get there. I've found the counter to the list to be Triple Defenders. They pressure Fenn and many times kill him by doing so and pass up on Dengar and are fast enough to kill Inaldra.

I went 3-2 first time running it that day. It has a very high ceiling. Entry level isn't super easy cuz of Fenn. Like I've never ran Fenn before then, but once you master him it can be super powerful and click for you. Games I lost was a mirror match which I lost the Initiative roll and a rebel jank list that I don't know how I lost to. Seriously, I was pissed. Fenn Rau took a Crit Range 3 through a rock, Cracken wouldn't die, Countermeasures rolled three blanks, God it was awful.

Also, I ain't gonna fly it anymore, it wasn't fun not flying Imperials and pretty much took that day to try out the list to figure out how to beat it.

4 hours ago, Reiver said:

You know, when the FFG designers were developing Fenn Rau, you'd think they'd have noticed something regarding its closest cousin, the Interceptor:

The PS1 generic was trash
The PS9 pilot, for +9pts, was fantastic.

Well, they changed the costings to make the Protectorate, they decided that they needed to get the balance better.
The PS1 generic was solid.
The PS9 pilot, for +8pts... what exactly were they expecting, here?

It's bugged me for a while.

If you were one of the designer, do you think you would find the job rewarding if you were designing the exact same ship, the exact same cost just with a different look and faction?
They can see people do not play the Alpha interceptor, why design another one for scum?

3 hours ago, Polda said:

If you were one of the designer, do you think you would find the job rewarding if you were designing the exact same ship, the exact same cost just with a different look and faction?
They can see people do not play the Alpha interceptor, why design another one for scum?

Absolutely - it's well worth trying to design a ship so later cousins are more likely to be fielded - you can tell they had high hopes for the generics.

But when doing so, you must always balance the aces and generics for both ends of the spectrum. They did well with the Zealous Recruit by pricing it more aggressively, for sure.

But they had a useful reference point with Soontir Fel, too, and that suggested that the aces were considerably better than the generics (unlike B-wing & Y-wing analogues, where the aces struggle vs the basic frame)... so why you'd throw in a relatively straightforward dice-adding PS9 repositional ace and then make its relative price to the improved generic actually cheaper than Soontir compared to an Alpha is... puzzling.

(If I were the designer, I'd honestly have wept at making an all-green-2s design at all and tried something a little funkier out of sheer stubbornness - perhaps a Scyk dial with hard green 1s? - but that's neither here nor there.)

4 hours ago, Polda said:

If you were one of the designer, do you think you would find the job rewarding if you were designing the exact same ship, the exact same cost just with a different look and faction?
They can see people do not play the Alpha interceptor, why design another one for scum?

It would be better to design a ship where the generics were solid and the elites were around the same price level above the generics. Fel is a point more expensive than Fenn, and at least a point less good.

On 6/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, Mep said:

... and Inaldra wasn't one shotted because......

At the very least chase her out of green maneuvers.

funny thing about that,

Inaldra's ability works defensively, and there are def times when she would be one shot, you decide "**** it" and re-roll into too many focus + evades

It's not like Inaldra's trivial to one shot anyway. She'll be rolling at least 3 green dice with focus/evade if she's ever actually in danger.

On 18.6.2017 at 11:12 PM, Biophysical said:

I actually think no. While Inaldra a is cheaper than Kaato Leachos, it's only by 2 points, and it's not like Scum is hurting for points in most lists. Inaldra is no Manaroo, she can go down quick and leave Dengar sans actions for a few turns. That's not to say the list isn't very strong, it is, but I don't think the Kaato version was somehow fundamentally worse than Inaldra in a major way.

Here is your reason why this is not done with Kato:

Dengar (33)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
K4 Security Droid (3)
Overclocked R4 (1)
Countermeasures (3)
Punishing One (12)

Fenn Rau (28)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)

Kaa'to Leeachos (15)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder


Now on top of actually fitting much better there is the thing with having all banks and all of them green, those 3-banks help a lot with running away, clearing stress and getting the evade/focus combo to survive incoming fire.

8 hours ago, Reiver said:

You know, when the FFG designers were developing Fenn Rau, you'd think they'd have noticed something regarding its closest cousin, the Interceptor:

The PS1 generic was trash
The PS9 pilot, for +9pts, was fantastic.

Well, they changed the costings to make the Protectorate, they decided that they needed to get the balance better.
The PS1 generic was solid.
The PS9 pilot, for +8pts... what exactly were they expecting, here?

It's bugged me for a while.

FFG's costing of PS has been fundamentally flawed from the beginning and they have never fully addressed the problem. The fixed arithmetic scale they use for costing PS on basically all ships is a very poor approximation of the actual value PS affords the different ships/pilots. The value of PS is in the amount of extra damage it allows you to deal over the course of a match: you deal extra damage by getting an additional attack off before dying, you deal extra damage by being able to pick up TLs and fire ordnance, you deal extra damage by repositioning to get shots/get better shots, you deal extra damage by repositioning to avoid shots, live longer and get more attacks off, etc.

Certain ships/pilots/upgrade combos are much better able to get that value from PS - a ship that can reposition and has a lot of health/damage mitigation is going to be able to use higher PS much more effectively. See Captain Kagi (+6 points for +6 PS, pilot ability over a PS 2 Omicron Group Pilot) - paying for PS8 on a Lambda Shuttle only gains you the opportunity to get one extra shot out of the shuttle before you die. Since the shuttle has an awful dial, you may not even get this last shot since it becomes trickier to keep enemy ships in arc as the match goes on. Compare to Carnor Jax (+8 points for +7 PS, EPT, pilot ability over PS 1 Alpha Squadron Pilot). Carnor's PS not only allows him to get off an extra attack, it also allows him to reposition using boost and/or barrel roll to avoid taking fire and/or get better shots. He's paying basically the same cost for a dramatically better effect.

8 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Here is your reason why this is not done with Kato:

Dengar (33)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
K4 Security Droid (3)
Overclocked R4 (1)
Countermeasures (3)
Punishing One (12)

Fenn Rau (28)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)

Kaa'to Leeachos (15)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Countermeasures is hardly necessary for the build, though. You can drop it and get Attani for Kaato with a 2 point bid.

I mean, Inaldra is clearly better, but before she was an option, it wasn't like there was some awesome build out there, but no one took it because they couldn't fit Countermeasures in.

14 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Countermeasures is hardly necessary for the build, though. You can drop it and get Attani for Kaato with a 2 point bid.

I mean, Inaldra is clearly better, but before she was an option, it wasn't like there was some awesome build out there, but no one took it because they couldn't fit Countermeasures in.

I played with very similar builds of Fenn, Dengar, and N'dru (I figure if he's going to be left alone in a corner of the map, he might as well shoot properly if he's ever asked to do so), and I feel the real issue is I think I'd much rather have a Scyk as my focus-factory than a Z-95. They're just a little too stiff to keep out of trouble - the Scyk's hard 1s and ability to occasionally barrel roll, or token up with F+E (as long as Fenn is alive to focus-feed on the turns it's needed), are likely to be a real lifesaver while your other ships keep up the pressure.