I have been reading all the forum topics on Morality and Conflict and have begun to think that this is one piece of the system I don't want to engage with as a GM. However, I do feel that a Force User's struggle against the Dark Side is an important part of the Star Wars universe, so I still want to represent that struggle somehow within the framework of the game. (While at the same time, I don't really want to play with "fallen" characters - it's the STRUGGLE AGAINST this fall that's interesting to me.)

With that in mind, I also prefer to run games for players who run characters that lean toward "good" as society generally perceives it (i.e.: Murder is bad, Theft is bad, etc. etc.). In this context, "good" can change based on the societal norms in the game, but we're looking at Star Wars right now.

So I've come up with a first draft of a house rule (using the existing skill check mechanic) that I think could represent the struggle against the Dark Side of the Force.

Thanks for reading! Feedback is appreciated!

TEMPTATION

Each character with a Force Rating must track how many Dark Side Force Points they have used (cumulative across all sessions). This is the character's Dark Side Rating. (DSR may never be less than zero.)

At the beginning of each session, after Destiny Points are rolled, any character with a Force Rating must roll their Discipline versus their Dark Side Temptation.

The difficulty for their Dark Side Temptation is made up of the character's Force Rating and the character's Dark Side Rating (ie: as in a skill check).

Results may be spent as follows;
SUCCESS = Character adds 1 Light Side Destiny Token for the session
1 Advantage = Character can increase their Strain Threshold by 1 for the session
2 Advantage = Character can add 1 Boost Die to all Skill checks for the session
3 Advantage or 1 Triumph = Character can reduce their Dark Side Rating by 1

FAILURE = Character flips 1 available Light Side Destiny Token to the Dark Side for the session
1 Threat = Character reduces their Strain Threshold by 1 and increases their Wound Threshold by 1 for the session
2 Threat = Character adds 1 Setback Die to all Skill checks for the session
3 Threat or 1 Despair = Character increases their Dark Side Rating by 1
2 Despair = Character finds it easier to access Dark Side Force Points this session; using a light side point causes 1 Strain and requires that a Light Side Destiny token by flipped over to the Dark Side. Using Dark Side Force Points causes no strain and requires no Destiny Token to be flipped; however, each Dark Side Point used during the session still increases the character's Dark Side Rating.
3 Threat or 1 Despair = Character finds it easier to access Dark Side Force Points this session; using a light side point causes 1 Strain and requires that a Light Side Destiny token by flipped over to the Dark Side. Using Dark Side Force Points causes no strain and requires no Destiny Token to be flipped; however, each Dark Side Point used during the session still increases the character's Dark Side Rating.
2 Despair = Character increases their Dark Side Rating by 1

At any time, a player may decide that their character has fallen to temptation and "retire" their PC to the Dark Side (i.e.: the character becomes an NPC) - this would likely be due to the character having too high a Dark Side Rating for the player to be happy with.

Note: "Redemption" can be modeled by the slow process of reducing the character's Dark Side Rating.

- Whenever a character would accrue Conflict from an action, add a Setback Die to their next Temptation Check.

- Whenever a character performs a "good" action (something opposite to one that would accrue Conflict), add a Boost Die to their next Temptation Check.

edit: changed Failure chart, added thoughts on evil/good narrative actions.

So if in the course of their ENTIRE existence, a character has used 5 dark pips, they would roll against 5 difficulty? That's absurd. My Whiphid Guardian has 1600ish XP, has been on dozens of adventures, and has used some dark pips. The nice thing about the conflict system is that giving in and accepting a bit of extra power isn't punishing in a big way if done sparingly. It also gives lots of room to tack on narrative conflict for doing bad things. Your system doesn't seem to account for that at all.

The difficulty for their Dark Side Temptation is made up of the character's Force Rating and the character's Dark Side Rating (ie: as in a skill check).

It's worse than that. The higher your force rating the more dark side inclined you inherently become. Umm, no.

Given the number of posts and the general verbiage (Dark Side Points, etc) I can only suppose that the OP is new(ish) to F&D and is trying to import old systems' notions of light/dark mechanics into this one. That isn't going to work.

Agreed. I must say even though I'm not a fan of "alignment scales" in general, I like how F&D Morality lets you get away with just a little dark stuff rather than forcing you to go straight edge or get obviously screwed - the latter just shuts down temptation completely.

18 minutes ago, biggreen10 said:

So if in the course of their ENTIRE existence, a character has used 5 dark pips, they would roll against 5 difficulty?

It's only 5 Difficulty if they have never managed to reduce their Rating.

21 minutes ago, biggreen10 said:

The nice thing about the conflict system is that giving in and accepting a bit of extra power isn't punishing in a big way if done sparingly.

Which doesn't really feel like The Force to me -- any time you grasp at the Dark Side for power, I feel that it should be like a mild addiction that you have to struggle against. Also, the Dark Side is subtle and insidious; characters should ALWAYS be struggling against its pull.

25 minutes ago, biggreen10 said:

It also gives lots of room to tack on narrative conflict for doing bad things. Your system doesn't seem to account for that at all.

So far, yes. It's still a first draft. Any suggestions to add this?

17 minutes ago, Garran said:

The difficulty for their Dark Side Temptation is made up of the character's Force Rating and the character's Dark Side Rating (ie: as in a skill check).

It's worse than that. The higher your force rating the more dark side inclined you inherently become. Umm, no.

I'm going with the "Power Corrupts" way of thinking. Also, it's not "more dark side inclined" -- it's "more struggle with temptation you have."

41 minutes ago, biggreen10 said:

It also gives lots of room to tack on narrative conflict for doing bad things. Your system doesn't seem to account for that at all.

14 minutes ago, admutt said:

So far, yes. It's still a first draft. Any suggestions to add this?

I might have an answer to this after all;

- Whenever a character would accrue Conflict from an action, add a Setback Die to their next Temptation Check.

- Whenever a character performs a "good" action (something opposite to one that would accrue Conflict), add a Boost Die to their next Temptation Check.

Comments?

23 minutes ago, admutt said:

I might have an answer to this after all;

- Whenever a character would accrue Conflict from an action, add a Setback Die to their next Temptation Check.

- Whenever a character performs a "good" action (something opposite to one that would accrue Conflict), add a Boost Die to their next Temptation Check.

Comments?

The problem lies within the basis of your system. For new characters with FR 1, it's almost expected that you'll draw on the dark pips reasonably often - 7 out of 12 sides of the die are dark side. You can of course constantly abstain from using them, but that system is called Fumbles & Do-Nothing.

Temptation happens in little steps. Sure, use that dark side pip. Intimidate that guy. Use that dark-ish talent. It's just a few points of conflict each, nothing to worry about - until they become more and more and it'd be really practical to get out of this situation with just one more lie and one more Unleash. Your system puts a big, fat "Don't use the Dark Side at all or you're completely and utterly screwed!" sign up, which would work if the system was designed for it, but it's not. Force and Destiny as it is written assumes that you can generate roughly five points of conflict per session without your score going down too much. Changing that without changing the rest of the system will make the PCs weaker than expected - massively weaker in the case of FR 1.

What you're pitching here makes the dark side about as tempting as the prospect of hugging a rabid badger.

F&D's thematics and mechanics are fundamentally incompatible with what you're trying to impose. Since you're set on having it work like this, the only comment that comes to mind is, "This is not the game system you're looking for."

3 hours ago, admutt said:

Which doesn't really feel like The Force to me -- any time you grasp at the Dark Side for power, I feel that it should be like a mild addiction that you have to struggle against. Also, the Dark Side is subtle and insidious; characters should ALWAYS be struggling against its pull.

So far, yes. It's still a first draft. Any suggestions to add this?

It is an addiction. In the RAW, every time the player rolls dark side pips (7/12 times for each Force die), they have to choose between giving into their emotions and succeeding or managing to restrain themselves and intentionally failing a Force Power/Talent check. It's the GM's job to jump in there after they roll the die and go "oh hey, dark side... sooo, are you going to use it and succeed? *wink*" Eventually, as you gain a larger understanding of the Force, you have a better time maintaining the calmness of a Jedi amidst the chaos that is Star Wars. In addition, a higher willpower/Discipline means you are less likely to be affected by Fear, which is the path to the dark side.

3 hours ago, admutt said:

I'm going with the "Power Corrupts" way of thinking. Also, it's not "more dark side inclined" -- it's "more struggle with temptation you have."

No, that system you've devised is straight up punishment to players. The dark side in this system isn't really a punishment.

The Morality system is designed to empower players to tell the story they want to tell with their Force user. You as the GM are just supposed to arbitrate exactly how much Conflict is awarded by any one action (or inaction) on the Player Characters. If the player intends to be a Light Side force user, there's basically nothing short of house-ruling to stop them. Same goes for a player that wants to be dark side.

My suggestion is to give the RAW Morality system a shot and to approach it with the right attitude: you're not working against the player trying to make them become the opposite, you are working with the player to tell a super cool story of Jim Moonwalker, an ex-Compnor agent turned Jedi Padawan, in the search for his Imperial abducted one-time master Salé Imbuno, a Jedi in hiding. Just recently Jim has begun discovering his potential in the Force. Will Jim face temptation by the dark side/light side along the way? absolutely. Ultimately, in the words of Batman, "it's not who I am on the inside but what I do that defines me". What Jim chooses to do, his actions, will define whether he becomes good, evil or walks the edge for a time before falling into one of those categories, not the GM.

Also worth remembering, is that FaD characters by default are not Jedi. They are Force sensitives hiding out from the Empire's purge. Some may come to learn the beliefs of the Jedi, but they are designed to operate much more in the muddy middle.

All right, I get that many players enjoy the RAW, but I also KNOW that I'm not the only one who feels ambivalent towards the existing Morality and Conflict mechanics -- and it's really off-putting to have people telling me to go play another game (really?) or to use the RAW when I've already indicated that's not what I'd like to attempt.

So, please, if anyone has any ideas or thoughts on a house rule to add a grittier "good-guy struggles against temptation" mechanic to the game, let's talk.

The mechanic I'm proposing (which may indeed be too harsh currently) is supposed to give Force Users a narrative focus for the session while imposing some mechanical effects as well;

- You failed your Temptation check; what negative emotion is driving you this session? Is it bad enough that it's interfering with your actions (Threats)? Are you able to work past it while it colors everything you do (Advantages)? Are you more likely to reach for the Dark Side this session (Despair) or is it just that the Light Side is harder to reach?

- You passed your Temptation check; what positive emotion is driving you this session? Is it strong enough to give you a boost (Advantage)? Is it causing you difficulties (Threats)? Has it strengthened your resolve to avoid using the Dark Side (Triumph)?

At the moment, I'm suggesting that the Dark Side Rating increase by 1 for each Dark Side Force Point used, but maybe that could be increased? 2 to 1? 5 to 1?

I'm not looking to model the Fall to the Dark Side or the Journey to Paragon status, rather I'm looking to model a continuing struggle against a Fall. (It's a Point of View thing; you're a Paragon because you act that way, not because of some dice rolls, but even Paragons feel the pull of the Dark Side.) It's not that a character won't or can't fall, but that they shouldn't want to. (Which is a perfectly valid GM's requirement - no evil PCs, please.) Of course, a character can still perform a series of "evil acts" in pursuit of the "greater good" but there's going to be consequences.

Again, I don't feel that the existing Morality/Conflict RAW provide the experience I'm looking for. That said, I'm also not set on using what I have here -- I'm open to some brainstorming.

Question: If the Force is everywhere and flows through everyone, should non-force users fall under the same mechanic? I'm 50-50 on this one. Of course, without a Force Rating or access to Dark Side Force Points, a non-force user's difficulty will always be zero (a tiny chance for failure) -- however, with the addition of Setback dice for "evil" acts, they can still build a dice pool with an increased chance for failure (a small one, but it's there).

No, don't force your Morality mechanic on your smugglers and bounty hunters. For one, their characters care not about the Morality of a force user and for two, it adds unnecessary work for you as the gm.

My constructive feedback is you really need to look at the way you've setup your morality mechanic and determine if you want it to be increasingly more difficult the more powerful your players get because as it is right now, it punishes players for spending their xp to advance their characters. On the other side of things, how easy do you want your players to game your system? If I were a player using this and wanted little chance of failure I would just focus on powers that work by die committment and max out my willpower/discipline to have the least difficulty dice/most positive dice possible to ensure I'm on the light side the majority of the time before I upgrade my force rating.

5 hours ago, admutt said:

All right, I get that many players enjoy the RAW, but I also KNOW that I'm not the only one who feels ambivalent towards the existing Morality and Conflict mechanics -- and it's really off-putting to have people telling me to go play another game (really?) or to use the RAW when I've already indicated that's not what I'd like to attempt.

So, please, if anyone has any ideas or thoughts on a house rule to add a grittier "good-guy struggles against temptation" mechanic to the game, let's talk.

The problem is that by your system, the good guys doesn't struggle against temptation, they struggle against the dice. Temptation means weighing the pros and cons of the situation and making a choice that benefits you even though it's the morally wrong one. In your system, I'd never ever use the dark side because it's so obviously bad for me - the chance of removing even just a single point are minimal (1/12 per yellow die, 3 advantages are not exactly easy either) and they just keep racking up. Why risk that when even the force dice turn against you?

The best advice I can give to make this one workable would be: Start everyone with a second force die that's not counted towards the temptation check. That goes some way towards removing the cascade of failed force powers that would result from the rule.

Also, "go play another game" is not an insult, it's a valid statement - you're trying to do something with the game that just doesn't work unless you make a lot more changes to core mechanics and it might be simpler to pick up a game that supports your wishes better rather than trying to modify F&D, especially if you have little playing experience with the game.

With your proposed system, the Dark Side isn't temptation - its the straight up wrong choice in every situation. Reminds me of a problem with WEG Star Wars and 'Character Points', where using them to boost a roll is always the wrong choice in the long run because it hampers character advancement.

Using the Dark Side gives your character a quickly stacking drawback that'll make them unplayable in no time flat.

It's alright to not want evil PCs. However, using Dark Pips is NOT equivalent for actively drawing on the dark side. It represents drawing on power through negative emotions, rash decisions, darker instincts. Sure, it also represents directly drawing on the dark side if you have a high Force Rating PC or NPC, but at FR1 you're below a normal Jedi Padawan in strength, not to mention that by system design, you're NOT a Padawan, you're someone hiding from the Empire that happens to be force sensitive. Saying that someone who has never heard of Jedi, Sith or the Force is 'drawing on the Dark Side' when they use that single dark side pip they rolled to activate Sense and know if someone is waiting to ambush them around a corner is ridiculous. A single act of using your fear to power Sense does not necessarily draw you closer to the Dark Side.

I'm against any system which forcibly retires characters. Morality is cumbersome but it works far better than the WEG or Saga systems.

The problem is that by your system "You either die a hero or you live to see yourself become a villain."

Someone with Force Rating 4 will always roll against 4 difficulty.

What would Yoda's Force Rating be? 5? 6? Would he have to roll against a difficulty of 5 (Formidable) or beyond (Impossible!) even if he didn't use any darkside pips?

That seems utterly unreasonable. Every Force-user would eventually fall to the Dark Side using this system.

You probably feel like you're being jumped all over here, so I'm gonna try to be gentle. You know, as I hammer away at your house rule.

The first problem is keeping track of every dark side point over every session. I would probably walk right away from your table, because I'm not keeping track of all that.

Second is that your system seems to be focused on the use of Dark Side Pips, rather than actions. So far as I've seen, Dark Pips are not a big source of conflict. They're a speed bump. Sure, if things get desperate and the Force Wizard goes nova on the bad guy, he may take a pretty big conflict hit, but actions have been far more important in my games.

Third is that your system makes Willpower/Discipline absolutely necessary for every Force user. This is something that FFG very specifically avoided. Even in RAW, Discipline is very good to have, as many Force Powers use it, but it's not necessary. There's plenty of room for warriors and miscreants who use Enhance, Misdirect, Heal/Harm, Sense and so forth.

Your Willpower and Discipline should not protect you from the Dark Side. Why? Because you did what you did. Whether you lost control of your anger and slaughtered sand people, or whether you did it as a stone cold sunufagun, you took that darkness into yourself.

Now then, I've been having issues with Morality myself, but it's largely because I'm bad at tracking every little thing my players do. So here's what I've been using, as suggested by someone on these forums a long time ago. I feel I should not that his first draft was long, and complicated, and didn't make anything easier, and this was pointed out. I don't think he posted the second draft on the forums, but I stumbled across his blog later and I've been trying it out.

Tally Conflict for Dark Pips as usual, but don't worry about every minor discrepancy your players make. Make a note of important ones. At the end of the session, ask around the table for ways that each character acted out of Fear or Anger, or did anything particularly Dark. You'll probably come up with a few things. If they were pretty mild, add a black d10 to the character's pool. If the character particularly embraced his emotional weakness, or was particularly nasty, add another black die. If he was plain evil this session, add a third.

Now consider his Light Side. Did he work towards peace? Justice? Was he courageous? If he did these things, he can roll a white d10. If he was especially true to his emotional strength, or self-sacrificing, he can roll an extra.

Now roll them all together, adding any Dark Pip Conflict to the black dice. If the Dark Side rolled more, he reduces his Morality by that much. If the Light rolled higher, it goes up.

Notice that it's very similar to the RAW, which, really, is going to be your best starting point.