So after several unsuccessful runs with several lists I thought I would enjoy flying, I decided to make a list that /might/ be fun to fly, but mostly wants to win. To that end...

TIE Bomber: · Tomax Bren (24)
Crack Shot (1)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
TIE Avanced Prototype: · The Inquisitor (25)
Push The Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
TIE/v1 (1)
TIE Defender: · Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)
-- TOTAL ------- 98p. --

All pilots are at PS8, with a healthy 2 point bid to help with controlling initiative.

Both Tomax and Inq can provide target locks for Vessery, and both have reasons for target locking on their own behalf.

LRS on Tomax helps set up the shot long before it becomes an issue, and Homing Missiles + Crack Shot makes the damage stick. Because Ordnance seems very neccesary these days.

Inquisitor slow-rolls into combat, sniping from R3 when possible, doing Inquisitor things.

Vessery provides a hard target, both offensively and defensively. /x7 gives him his Evade, freeing his action for a focus, and his ability means he always has a target lock. Given the /x7 is now a free action, I threw TIE MkII in there to make sure he retains mobility while shedding stress.

If you really want to win a Bomber probably isn't the best choice. I'd replace him with the powerful Quickdraw:

The Inquisitor (25)
Push the Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
TIE/v1 (1)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

"Quickdraw" (29)
A Score to Settle (0)
Fire-Control System (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I would agree with the admiral to a certain degree. Bombers are fun but in today's alpha strike dominance. Tomax is gunna get a crack shot in once probably before he dies. Bombers just don't have enough going for them, especially when more powerful airframes can still hold one missiles for an alpha i.e. Quickdraw, Dengar. Also with the abundance of PS9's now I almost feel like an initiative bid isn't worth it unless you have 2+ 9's or an interceptor/fenn rau. Also with LRS extra munitions most certainly isn't going to pay off, if be highly surprised if your opponent let's you run far enough to re-targetlock.

I have been toying with low ps bombers or maybe Jonus for fun but have no tangible input in that yet.

7 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

If you really want to win a Bomber probably isn't the best choice. I'd replace him with the powerful Quickdraw:

The Inquisitor (25)
Push the Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
TIE/v1 (1)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

"Quickdraw" (29)
A Score to Settle (0)
Fire-Control System (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Inquisitor is a bit too squishy in the current meta, in my opinion, but the list works nicely together. Bonus for Quickdraw -- s/he can take their revenge shot against any legal target, meaning that they can potentially paint a completely new target for Vessery, if he hasn't shot yet.

36 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Inquisitor is a bit too squishy in the current meta, in my opinion, but the list works nicely together. Bonus for Quickdraw -- s/he can take their revenge shot against any legal target, meaning that they can potentially paint a completely new target for Vessery, if he hasn't shot yet.

Inquisitor is not remotely squishy. He's one of the best ships Imperials have in their arsenal. He's a great Fenn Rau counter for example.

I do agree that Tomax will only very rarely get to fire a second homing missile. Extra munitions is hardly necessary, especially if you consider that with 'perma' crack shot, his basic attack is quite decent. If you drop extra munitions, you have enough points to put a missile on Inquisitor. Proton Rockets or ion pulse missile are quite good, and preserve your initiative bid (slightly).

On 6/17/2017 at 7:47 PM, blade_mercurial said:

Inquisitor is not remotely squishy. He's one of the best ships Imperials have in their arsenal. He's a great Fenn Rau counter for example.

I do agree that Tomax will only very rarely get to fire a second homing missile. Extra munitions is hardly necessary, especially if you consider that with 'perma' crack shot, his basic attack is quite decent. If you drop extra munitions, you have enough points to put a missile on Inquisitor. Proton Rockets or ion pulse missile are quite good, and preserve your initiative bid (slightly).

Squishy given that the current meta has plenty of answers to him that shut him out or wipe him clean off the board.

You're personal feelings notwithstanding, there's a reason you're not seeing him on top tables very often; I'm not suggesting those reasons have anything to do with his being a fantastic pilot.

On 18 June 2017 at 0:47 AM, blade_mercurial said:

Inquisitor is not remotely squishy. He's one of the best ships Imperials have in their arsenal. He's a great Fenn Rau counter for example.

The problem he faces is Sabine bombs - they counter him hard .

Even though he's theoretically a great Fenn Rau counter, in practice I've found him quite lacking in the ability to push damage through. (Literally 7 rounds of 3 red TL versus 3 green focus for a single direct hit. Needless to say I lost that one.)

On 6/17/2017 at 11:02 AM, Drakeheart said:

So after several unsuccessful runs with several lists I thought I would enjoy flying, I decided to make a list that /might/ be fun to fly, but mostly wants to win. To that end...

TIE Bomber: · Tomax Bren (24)
Crack Shot (1)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
TIE Avanced Prototype: · The Inquisitor (25)
Push The Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
TIE/v1 (1)
TIE Defender: · Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)
-- TOTAL ------- 98p. --

All pilots are at PS8, with a healthy 2 point bid to help with controlling initiative.

Both Tomax and Inq can provide target locks for Vessery, and both have reasons for target locking on their own behalf.

LRS on Tomax helps set up the shot long before it becomes an issue, and Homing Missiles + Crack Shot makes the damage stick. Because Ordnance seems very neccesary these days.

Inquisitor slow-rolls into combat, sniping from R3 when possible, doing Inquisitor things.

Vessery provides a hard target, both offensively and defensively. /x7 gives him his Evade, freeing his action for a focus, and his ability means he always has a target lock. Given the /x7 is now a free action, I threw TIE MkII in there to make sure he retains mobility while shedding stress.

Drop Inquisitor for Backdraft (or Quickdraw) with Targeting Synchronizer, replace homing missile and LRS with Proton Torpedo and Guidance Chips and you got your alpha striking squad. (And most of the time Tomax will unload both torpedoes before dying)

I'm going to be trying this. I used to have the Inquisitor in there instead of Bren, but found his damage to be lacking.

Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Tractor Beam (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Tomax Bren (24)
Crack Shot (1)
Extra Munitions (2)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
Guidance Chips (0)

"Backdraft" (27)
Adaptability (0)
Fire-Control System (2)
Primed Thrusters (1)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 100

I'm hoping Bren gives me a harder alpha and or just take some heat off of Vessery. All PS 8 which is pretty nice. Going to try Primed Thrusters, but I might just drop that for an initiative bid.

So I've flown the original list several times now. So far, I'm 3 wins for 3 games.

I'm not going to offer any flight reports, but I will say some of the things I've learned about the list.

Tomax hurts. Between preventing Evade tokens, and Infinite Crack Shot, he will hit you, and it will hurt. Since he usually fires after Vessery anyways, he either kills or cripples whatever Vessery leaves behind. Vessery himself need only Barrel Roll or Focus (usually Focus), which makes flying him very simple, and I usually forgo using his Focus for offence, instead saving it for when Vessery defends to make sure he stays on the board longer. As for Inquisitor, as long as I keep him on the outskirts of the fight, or out of arc from bad guys, he pays back for himself. Between the /v1 title and Autothrusters, he's pretty squirrely, and on the rare times my opponent had a shot on him, he rarely made anything connect.

Which brings me to my question: We all seem to agree that Vessery is a solid choice, but why the hesitancy for Tomax or Inquisitor? The main concerns seem to be fragility, which are valid on paper, but turn out not be an actual worry on the board.

The main issue people seem to face is target priority. Of the games I've played, Tomax and Inq survived all of them, with Vessery only going down in one of them. Since I usually flew Vessery ahead to keep taking advantage of the /x7 title and the white 4k, people were forced to choose between the TIE/D flying in their faces, or that Bomber over there. In all three games, if Vessery was chosen, he weathered enough fire (between focus and evade) to let Tomax and Inquisitor mop up (Infinite Crack shot is so nice). In the one game my opponent chose to target Tomax, I simply bumped one of his ships to keep it from shooting, and the other couldn't put out enough damage to finish him. After that, Vessery and Inquisitor were left free to wreak havoc.

In all three games, Inquisitor was only ever a target-of-opportunity, and the damage never actually stuck.

So I clarify my question: What does the TIE/sf bring to the table that Tomax or Inq don't? The Inquisitor is an excellent Arc-Dodger, with lots of defensive options, and an amazing offensive ability. Compare to Quickdraw or Backdraft who are definitely more durable, and are no slouches offensively, but not nearly as manoeuvrable, and lack the defensive options Inquisitor gets.

Similarly, Tomax packs an amazing punch with Crack Shot; Homing Missiles to pry open their shields, and then wearing them down through attrition with Crack Shot. Quick-draft can certainly handle a beating a bit less punishingly, but does not provide the same amount of raw alpha that Tomax can, even if Quickdraw fires twice.

As a final note, a naked Quickdraw is only slightly cheap than the fully built Tomax and Inquisitor. So, what makes the TIE/sf worth the cost?

For the TIE/sf, you've got a number of things. Their upgrade options are superior. Their abilities, used better, are FAR superior. And the double arc is no joke, especially since the title really ramps up both the uniques in different ways.

Inquisitor's offense is nice, but is actually quite weak in the given meta. Quickdraw can potentially shoot four times in a round (SIX if you try Snapshot shenanigans, though I don't) -- with FCS and, say, Expertise, holy cow! This thing can BURN low agility ships, and stands a reasonable chance to tag even the most wily of aces (green dice are fickle, after all).

Backdraft is absolutely punishing if you aren't super careful with it -- that rear shot, which can be the bonus SECOND shot of his activation, can be very painful.

If you're running them naked, they are garbage and you're doing it wrong. If you're kitting them out, they're some of the best ships the Imperials have right now.

Just this past weekend, I obliterated an Inquisitor with Quickdraw... And it wasn't even close (of course, that's a single example, but look at current big tournament results and you should see a trend).

Additionally -- three shields are great, and three hull behind it means they don't, very often, pop after some bad dice. Inquisitor has much more trouble surviving a round if his dice decide offer no help, even with his bonus Evade. He's a great ship! But I'd rather have Quickdraw, who can be built for about 35 points (more or less, depending on room) and still be very solid. Inq is nice when you don't have the points and/or want an end game ship... You just have to baby him until you get there, and the SFs can't handle their own.

Edit: Tomax's issue is that he's on a bomber, which is easy to dodge and is a miniature crit magnet. They burn down fast, if you're playing against a competent player. And you've but a lot of points into it to lose it on 1-2 rounds of shooting (again, YMMY a bit, but there's PLENTY in the larger meta that eats Bombers alive).

35 minutes ago, Drakeheart said:

So I clarify my question: What does the TIE/sf bring to the table that Tomax or Inq don't?

1. Targeting Synchronizer.

This allows Tomax to shoot torpedoes first round even at PS9+ opponents and to shoot Torpedoes even after being stressed/bumped.

2. FCS

This allows TIE/sf to paint up a target for Vessery without spending an action and to switch Vessery targets on the fly if needed.

1 hour ago, PT106 said:

1. Targeting Synchronizer.

This allows Tomax to shoot torpedoes first round even at PS9+ opponents and to shoot Torpedoes even after being stressed/bumped.

2. FCS

This allows TIE/sf to paint up a target for Vessery without spending an action and to switch Vessery targets on the fly if needed.

I don't love Targeting Synchronizer on an SF. It's somewhat expensive for an upgrade that reduces the damage output of the SF itself, which is no slouch.

A TL on your opponent can really make them doubt shooting at QD, for example, because it means they are much more likely to be eating damage from the revenge shot.

It absolutely has its uses, I just feel like the SFs make better use out of their Target Locks than most other ships, and that slot is better suited to Pattern Analyzer, or saved for points elsewhere in the list.

I was testing a list with OL and QD using Synchronizer -- I loved OL having a target lock she could actually spend, but I hated taking it away from Quickdraw. Clearly, that's a very specific example... But I still think the upgrade doesn't belong on the named pilots.

But the upgrade slots, in general, make this ships extremely customizable.

24 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

I don't love Targeting Synchronizer on an SF. It's somewhat expensive for an upgrade that reduces the damage output of the SF itself, which is no slouch.

It all depends on the squad composition though. If we're talking Tomax Bren, then targeting synchronizer makes him a more potent threat and a loss of SF target lock for next round is more than offset by increased damage output from the bomber (ordnance shot round 1, 5K and ordnance shot round 2) as well as somewhat increased survivability (defensive focus round 1).

Essentially for TIE Bombers the key is to have some external way to feed them target locks, and Targeting Synchronizer is the best one right now.

9 hours ago, Drakeheart said:

Which brings me to my question: We all seem to agree that Vessery is a solid choice, but why the hesitancy for Tomax or Inquisitor? The main concerns seem to be fragility, which are valid on paper, but turn out not be an actual worry on the board.

So, what makes the TIE/sf worth the cost?

A lot of people don't seem to know how to fly a flanker well. I just shake my head when I go to my LGS and I see some of the things people do with their Imperial 'arc-dodgers'. So, for that reason, a lot of people think Inquisitor is squishy and easy to kill. If you're good at setting up your moves in advance, and you can keep Inqy at his preferred range more often than not (3 of course!), then he's gold. Absolutely worth 31 points, no question. But not everyone can do that, it seems. I'm pretty confident I can get more mileage out of Inqy than all the people commenting on his weaknesses above, for example.

Now, comparing the /sf directly to Inquisitor or Tomax, well, I think both options are sound, but for different reasons. I am a huge fan of the /sf. Its like the TIE defender, really. Not quite as tanky as an x-7 titled defender, but better firepower thanks to FCS. The rear-arc gives it great flexibility (although again, a lot of people don't seem to fly it as anything more than a jouster, and for them, it may seem lacklustre). And its a tiny bit cheaper in points too.

Tomax is quite good. However he is definitely more glass cannon than an /sf. This means that when the matchup favours him, he rocks, because his hard-hitting power can't be denied. But in a bad matchup, he seems terrible because of how easy he seems to be countered. A good matchup is pretty much anything of lower PS. A bad matchup is anything higher. Also, ships that are capable of boosting into range 1 (to avoid the missile) or block or arc-dodge can also foil your ability to get value out of Tomax. Fortunately, its very rare that an enemy fields all PS 9 ships, so Tomax can still be useful against most enemies. His worst nightmare is an Ace(s) + blocker(s) type list (something I've been using more of lately, in fact).

So I guess what it really comes down to is that the /sf has fewer bad matchups. Its going to be good in every game you put it on the table. Inqy has very few bad matchups, but its still greater than 0 (examples: PS10 Rey or anything that can counter your ability to control the range). Sabine bombs shouldn't be much of a problem for him if you are smart. Tomax however does have quite a few bad matchups. Not just higher PS ships. Large-based low PS blockers are quite effective against him. Swarms also laugh in his face (sure he kills one low cost ship, but then dies immediately after).

Its going to come down to what you are seeing a lot of in your meta. If no one is flying anything that is problematic for your Inqy and Tomax, then you don't have to worry about it. Keep on flying and keep on winning! If things become difficult for you though, just be glad that you have options in other ships

I took a very similar list to three regionals last season and went something like 14-5 with it, including a top 4.

TIE Bomber: · Tomax Bren (24)
Crack Shot (1)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
TIE Avanced Prototype: · The Inquisitor (25)
Push The Limit (3)
Proton Rockets (3)
Autothrusters (2)
TIE/v1 (1)
TIE Defender: · Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Very fun to fly, but can struggle against high PS and bombs. Tomax is a very underrated pilot and would normally draw most of the fire early, leaving the defender and Inquisitor to finish the game. I would normally focus fire with all three ships and most of the time I could eliminate an enemy ship in the first round of firing. Normally in the second turn of firing, I could normally get the Inquisitor to range one to fire proton rockets, which combined with a second round of homing missiles/crackshot from Bren, would remove another ship.

12 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

A lot of people don't seem to know how to fly a flanker well. I just shake my head when I go to my LGS and I see some of the things people do with their Imperial 'arc-dodgers'. So, for that reason, a lot of people think Inquisitor is squishy and easy to kill. If you're good at setting up your moves in advance, and you can keep Inqy at his preferred range more often than not (3 of course!), then he's gold. Absolutely worth 31 points, no question. But not everyone can do that, it seems. I'm pretty confident I can get more mileage out of Inqy than all the people commenting on his weaknesses above, for example.

And everyone taking him to events, or who considered and changed their mind, I guess. Not to mention everyone they've played using the Inquisitor, and still come away feeling he's too squishy.

... And then there's the folks who run or have run into RAC with Vader, bombing K-Wings, Dengar, or opponents equally skilled at controlling engagement and range with their ships...

I look forward to your upcoming Worlds victory ft. Inquisitor, though!

2 hours ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

And everyone taking him to events, or who considered and changed their mind, I guess. Not to mention everyone they've played using the Inquisitor, and still come away feeling he's too squishy.

... And then there's the folks who run or have run into RAC with Vader, bombing K-Wings, Dengar, or opponents equally skilled at controlling engagement and range with their ships...

I look forward to your upcoming Worlds victory ft. Inquisitor, though!

Look, I'm sorry if my post sounded 'douchy', but it bothers me when people come along to comment on someone's list, and the gist of their advice is: 'don't bother taking {insert ship/pilot name} because others have tried to do well at high level events and failed'. Who cares? Its not even remotely helpful.

I've played against the best players in the world. Most of them are not necessarily smarter or better than most other players that get together at their local games for fun gaming nights. The difference is that they play a lot, practice a lot and try hard (all admirable, of course). My point is, it really doesn't matter if some people failed to do well with a particular ship at tournament x, y or z. Regardless of how big the event was, or how 'competitive' it was. Because they are not necessarily better/more skilled players.

Now sure there are 'top tier' pilots/ships and then there are ones that are less stellar, especially when list-building for a competitive event. And it would be foolish to ignore the meta completely (since understanding what is popular in the meta is the best way to bring 'counters'). But even so, there are a lot of ships/pilots that 'popular opinion' thinks are garbage, but in reality, if you use them well, or think about how you can offset their weaknesses, its more than possible to succeed with them. It does require more work/practice to get right, however.

Speaking specifically about Inquisitor (or any high PS, 'glass cannon-type' arc-dodger/flanker), all of the weaknesses you mention can be countered/avoided by good flying. But here's the thing, if you are NOT confident that you can outfly the vast majority of your opponents most of the time, then these kinds of ships are not going to do well. When going to a big tournament, you should already know where you stand relative to other players (in terms of outflying opponents) when practicing with the list prior to the event. If you're finding it difficult to keep said Inquisitor (or Soontir or similar) alive for reasons you and others have mentioned, then yeah, don't run him! But if you ARE doing well at keeping him alive, then the argument 'Inquisitor is too squishy or too easily countered by bombs, dengar/rey/etc, etc' no longer holds water.

As for me, I'm sad I couldn't attend Worlds this year. I really wanted to go, but failed to get a ticket. I'm hoping I can win Nationals or get a ticket for next year. My big tournaments so far this year have all been great experiences and I look forward to more! If I do manage to go to Worlds next year, I have no idea what I'd fly because its way to early to decide that!

Lastly, maybe I implied that you personally are not good at this game if you have struggled to do well with Inquisitor or similar ships. But this is not what I meant. Different ships suit different playstyles, but being good with one thing or another is not in itself indicative of being good at the game. For example, I know Paul Heaver is kind of terrible with Soontir/Inquisitor and similar ships. But no one would suggest that he's terrible at this game!

3 minutes ago, blade_mercurial said:

Look, I'm sorry if my post sounded 'douchy', but it bothers me when people come along to comment on someone's list, and the gist of their advice is: 'don't bother taking {insert ship/pilot name} because others have tried to do well at high level events and failed'. Who cares? Its not even remotely helpful.

I've played against the best players in the world. Most of them are not necessarily smarter or better than most other players that get together at their local games for fun gaming nights. The difference is that they play a lot, practice a lot and try hard (all admirable, of course). My point is, it really doesn't matter if some people failed to do well with a particular ship at tournament x, y or z. Regardless of how big the event was, or how 'competitive' it was. Because they are not necessarily better/more skilled players.

Now sure there are 'top tier' pilots/ships and then there are ones that are less stellar, especially when list-building for a competitive event. And it would be foolish to ignore the meta completely (since understanding what is popular in the meta is the best way to bring 'counters'). But even so, there are a lot of ships/pilots that 'popular opinion' thinks are garbage, but in reality, if you use them well, or think about how you can offset their weaknesses, its more than possible to succeed with them. It does require more work/practice to get right, however.

Speaking specifically about Inquisitor (or any high PS, 'glass cannon-type' arc-dodger/flanker), all of the weaknesses you mention can be countered/avoided by good flying. But here's the thing, if you are NOT confident that you can outfly the vast majority of your opponents most of the time, then these kinds of ships are not going to do well. When going to a big tournament, you should already know where you stand relative to other players (in terms of outflying opponents) when practicing with the list prior to the event. If you're finding it difficult to keep said Inquisitor (or Soontir or similar) alive for reasons you and others have mentioned, then yeah, don't run him! But if you ARE doing well at keeping him alive, then the argument 'Inquisitor is too squishy or too easily countered by bombs, dengar/rey/etc, etc' no longer holds water.

You'll note that, while I said I felt he was squishy (very much an opinion, versus an attempt to state fact), I did NOT suggest swapping him. I'm in the school of, "fly what you want." X-Wing will remain more enjoyable on the individual level if you like what you're flying.

Your post came off very much as an elitist snob, and I got a bit triggered from that, however

The most important thing that I can address, for you, is that we shouldn't give suggestions that require the player to be a top-level player. If the Inquisitor, per your own comment above, requires expert-level-flying to use correctly... He's not a good suggestion for someone starting out, or looking for more direct, obvious advice on this forum. Is it a ship to learn? Hells yes... But OP is looking for a fun list to fly, not something that requires the highest caliber of player to milk full effectiveness from.

And no, Inquisitor isn't THAT difficult to run, I'm not actually suggesting that, either. I'm just saying my definition of squishy is going to be true for more players than not. And he's no longer the only/best option at his price point, so his value isn't quite as high for the Imperials as when he dropped.

Again, I did NOT suggest a swap for Inquisitor. For anyone that did though, I don't remotely blame them.

14 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

Tomax is quite good. However he is definitely more glass cannon than an /sf. This means that when the matchup favours him, he rocks, because his hard-hitting power can't be denied. But in a bad matchup, he seems terrible because of how easy he seems to be countered. A good matchup is pretty much anything of lower PS. A bad matchup is anything higher. Also, ships that are capable of boosting into range 1 (to avoid the missile) or block or arc-dodge can also foil your ability to get value out of Tomax. Fortunately, its very rare that an enemy fields all PS 9 ships, so Tomax can still be useful against most enemies. His worst nightmare is an Ace(s) + blocker(s) type list (something I've been using more of lately, in fact).

This is a good analysis actually, however these weak points can be mitigated. I think that blockers or PS9+ ships aren't really a problem for Tomax as long as he can get that target lock. As a matter of fact Tomax is one of the few ships that can reliably threaten Fenn at range 3.

His bad matchups are swarms and PS9 alpha strikers that can reliably kill him before he shoots.