I'm glad that the Armada FFG designer(s) seem to be watching and playtesting and adjusting to keep the balance a goal in the game. Yes, Rieeken has been OP in the top lists at the LGS and Worlds and flotillas everywhere need some hard counters or reductions, but it seems that's coming. I'm relieved and optimistic about Armada grasping true balance in the coming months. You don't know how much fun this game is to me, even at my level of ability.

And its grand that Armada incorporated Scum personnel and ships within the factions and not made it the power in the Galaxy as the FFG designers in X-Wing have. May this game continue to stay clear of that mess; please!! I'm getting my Armada out today and "teaching" two friends who are very interested (new inductees into this addiction I'll wager) how to play this awesome game, and I'm a novice. Guess after teaching it (and making mistakes), I'll be better at it, haha!

Cheers Admirals!!

Balance is a pendulum. Perfect does not exist.

1 hour ago, Darthain said:

Balance is a pendulum. Perfect does not exist.

I know your being contrary and a bit literary here with your first sentence, but I see your point. However your point is reaching, and in this instance, it's incorrect. Such a statement is certainly not a good premise to build a game upon.

Although "perfect" does not exist this side of the vail in any person, place or occupation, "perfect balance" is a goal that every game designer should continually strive to attain with each expansion and FAQ. Games (outside of checkers, chess, etc.) should be a beam that is supported freely in the center and has two pans of equal weight suspended from its ends; when one side dips in the slightest, an ounce is to be swiftly (as possible) added to the corresponding end. For a game that continuously oscillates between one extreme and another is not a good game in the least. I don't think this "pendulum" design has occurred in Armada. Certainly not to the degree it has it has in X-Wing, thus my optimism and bend toward this wonderful game.

You say should a lot there, and not is.

Look at the problem solutions ffg has presented us to date. They release more content to 'fix issues' which more often than not just creates new issues. You need to fix from the ground up, errata problems, change printed material as required for unexpected/unanticipated interaction. To date, none of that has happened, just attempts at bandaids that have had some interesting side effects. They may have fixed the desired problems, but created a whole new one.

Flotillas fixed the supposed problem with demolisher, allowing you to spread your points out and have less risk. I'd say from that perspective it worked, other potential issues have arises.

Philosophy is all good and well, but let's stay grounded in reality for the time being.

I feel like the game was balanced at wave II. FFG then had to keep releasing new upgrade cards and it went downhill from there. They'll assassinate the game with the release of the SSD.

8 minutes ago, RedPriest said:

I feel like the game was balanced at wave II. FFG then had to keep releasing new upgrade cards and it went downhill from there. They'll execute the game with the release of the SSD.

FTFY

14 minutes ago, RedPriest said:

I feel like the game was balanced at wave II. FFG then had to keep releasing new upgrade cards and it went downhill from there. They'll assassinate the game with the release of the SSD.

I haven't heard of the SSD Expansion. Why do you think that would end the game? It doesn't seem like large ships are or have ever been the issue at all that I have heard of, but I'm no expert; I'll take your word for it.

My collection thus far is through Wave II mostly and I'm not very strong meta-wise as I'm without flotillas. I have the fun stuff:

Core Set, 2 additional CR90 Corvettes, 1 Imperial Fighters, 3 additional Nebulon-B Frigates, 1 Victory-class Star Destroyer because, well, triangle, 1 Home One for Acbar to spring the trap, 1 Imperial-class Star Destroyer be cause it is THE Star Wars ship , 2 Imperial Raiders, 1 Rogues and Villains for the fun characters, 1 Imperial Fighter Squadrons, 2 Imperial Light Cruisers so the Imps can turn around a bit.

So far they've been a blast and I'm getting others into the game wanting and getting the Core Set. I don't go to the LGS much now because it's not fun; Rieeken and flotillas, but my friends and I think it's going to get better, seems quite fixable with a few anti-flotilla things and some anti-zombie. I'm encouraged actually.

Though the guys I play with would really dig an SSD ?

18 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

So far they've been a blast and I'm getting others into the game wanting and getting the Core Set [. . .] but my friends and I think it's going to get better, [. . .] I'm encouraged actually.

That's all that matters.

So long as you're having fun, it's a good game.

7 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I haven't heard of the SSD Expansion. Why do you think that would end the game? It doesn't seem like large ships are or have ever been the issue at all that I have heard of, but I'm no expert; I'll take your word for it.

My collection thus far is through Wave II mostly and I'm not very strong meta-wise as I'm without flotillas. I have the fun stuff:

Core Set, 2 additional CR90 Corvettes, 1 Imperial Fighters, 3 additional Nebulon-B Frigates, 1 Victory-class Star Destroyer because, well, triangle, 1 Home One for Acbar to spring the trap, 1 Imperial-class Star Destroyer be cause it is THE Star Wars ship , 2 Imperial Raiders, 1 Rogues and Villains for the fun characters, 1 Imperial Fighter Squadrons, 2 Imperial Light Cruisers so the Imps can turn around a bit.

So far they've been a blast and I'm getting others into the game wanting and getting the Core Set. I don't go to the LGS much now because it's not fun; Rieeken and flotillas, but my friends and I think it's going to get better, seems quite fixable with a few anti-flotilla things and some anti-zombie. I'm encouraged actually.

Though the guys I play with would really dig an SSD ?

Your collection and mine are similar give or take an expansion pack here and there. I think the game IS a blast (and, for the most part, balanced) with friends that want to play a Star Wars game.Your comment about not wanting to play at your LGS hits the nail on the head, there we are like minded as well. FFG failed to foresee competitive players breaking the game with flotillas.

@Darthain 's comment does make sense though. It would seem the balance may swing from one faction to another with every wave released. Maybe we have seen the pendulum reach its zenith with the Rebels and it will finally start swinging back toward the Imperials. We shall see, but the flux may be planned by FFG to make each successive wave more desirable.

2 hours ago, RedPriest said:

I feel like the game was balanced at wave II. FFG then had to keep releasing new upgrade cards and it went downhill from there. They'll assassinate the game with the release of the SSD.

You mean when Demo and Rhymerballs dominated the top of major tournaments in the way we saw Rieekan do at Worlds?

I've loved this game through all waves, and I remain happy with the direction we're going. A game gets stale without new content, which in turn makes it harder to balance. FFG is doing a pretty good job all things considered.

I've loved every wave of this game but I'm a competitive player who is capable of identifying the strengths of each new option and choosing them accordingly. I couldn't care less about reenacting storylines or these airy fairy comments about the game not feeling like Star Wars. I love flotillas, and Rhymer and Demo and every other awesome combo that comes into the game. To me it doesn't need balance at all but I love the new options they bring out and I can't wait for the new wave so I can get my hands on some new options.

But that's just my perspective, and its one that's only shared by the top players of any given competition which means that it's a small portion of our gaming pyramid. For the rest of you who don't think like me the best option is to look for internal balance options, limit the flotillas, Rhymers and Demos, enforce restrictions to squadrons or Reikan, whatever it takes to make the game enjoyable for you. Stop waiting for FFG to fix it for you and be grown up gamers who can sort your own business.

2 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:

I've loved every wave of this game but I'm a competitive player who is capable of identifying the strengths of each new option and choosing them accordingly. I couldn't care less about reenacting storylines or these airy fairy comments about the game not feeling like Star Wars. I love flotillas, and Rhymer and Demo and every other awesome combo that comes into the game. To me it doesn't need balance at all but I love the new options they bring out and I can't wait for the new wave so I can get my hands on some new options.

But that's just my perspective, and its one that's only shared by the top players of any given competition which means that it's a small portion of our gaming pyramid. For the rest of you who don't think like me the best option is to look for internal balance options, limit the flotillas, Rhymers and Demos, enforce restrictions to squadrons or Reikan, whatever it takes to make the game enjoyable for you. Stop waiting for FFG to fix it for you and be grown up gamers who can sort your own business.

As another competitive player, the game is ******* boring when everyone flies Rieekan. Please come down from that rarefied air so we can speak as peoples, or breath instead of choking to death unknown in a Rieekan mirror match which is so lively you may not notice.

Being a competitive player does not mean 1 item should dominate.

3 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:

I've loved every wave of this game but I'm a competitive player who is capable of identifying the strengths of each new option and choosing them accordingly. I couldn't care less about reenacting storylines or these airy fairy comments about the game not feeling like Star Wars. I love flotillas, and Rhymer and Demo and every other awesome combo that comes into the game. To me it doesn't need balance at all but I love the new options they bring out and I can't wait for the new wave so I can get my hands on some new options.

But that's just my perspective, and its one that's only shared by the top players of any given competition which means that it's a small portion of our gaming pyramid. For the rest of you who don't think like me the best option is to look for internal balance options, limit the flotillas, Rhymers and Demos, enforce restrictions to squadrons or Reikan, whatever it takes to make the game enjoyable for you. Stop waiting for FFG to fix it for you and be grown up gamers who can sort your own business.

Cool.

7 hours ago, Rettere said:

FTFY

Executors are not commonly known for ending lives.

39 minutes ago, mxlm said:

Executors are not commonly known for ending lives.

...Only the lives of the people on it!

*rimshot*

Guh, all I want is a list type with functional gun-armed medium and heavies that aren't highly susceptible to swarms of things.

7 hours ago, Darthain said:

As another competitive player, the game is ******* boring when everyone flies Rieekan. Please come down from that rarefied air so we can speak as peoples, or breath instead of choking to death unknown in a Rieekan mirror match which is so lively you may not notice.

Being a competitive player does not mean 1 item should dominate.

Does the Riekan Meta actually exist beyond America though? We've already established that this year's worlds were largely American and we don't see that same prevalence in say the Vassal comps which represent the rest of the world far more clearly. I totally agree that a Reikan vs Reikan mirror match is boring as anything but I question whether its as prevalent as some people (and particularly this forum) make it out to be... Even data collection initiatives like we see which are really awesome don't equally balance the non USA meta.

Aus has a nationals coming up so it will be interesting to see because the new wave will probably be out in time but will still be fairly fresh. Reikan wasn't anywhere in our nats last year and I'd be suprised if it suddenly turns up.

^Rieekan wasn't really an issue until wave5/CC, there is something to be gleaned though, that kt wasn't a local fad, but literally spread across NA entirely. We tried it all, including obtuse counters, and couldn't make it fly. Hence the current champ holding list.

4 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:

Does the Riekan Meta actually exist beyond America though? We've already established that this year's worlds were largely American and we don't see that same prevalence in say the Vassal comps which represent the rest of the world far more clearly. I totally agree that a Reikan vs Reikan mirror match is boring as anything but I question whether its as prevalent as some people (and particularly this forum) make it out to be... Even data collection initiatives like we see which are really awesome don't equally balance the non USA meta.

Aus has a nationals coming up so it will be interesting to see because the new wave will probably be out in time but will still be fairly fresh. Reikan wasn't anywhere in our nats last year and I'd be suprised if it suddenly turns up.

If that is indeed the case, then my suspicions of players lacking vision are confirmed.

Guess FFG is better off just selling blocks of wood in varying sizes, with rules.

5 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:

Does the Riekan Meta actually exist beyond America though? We've already established that this year's worlds were largely American and we don't see that same prevalence in say the Vassal comps which represent the rest of the world far more clearly. I totally agree that a Reikan vs Reikan mirror match is boring as anything but I question whether its as prevalent as some people (and particularly this forum) make it out to be... Even data collection initiatives like we see which are really awesome don't equally balance the non USA meta.

Aus has a nationals coming up so it will be interesting to see because the new wave will probably be out in time but will still be fairly fresh. Reikan wasn't anywhere in our nats last year and I'd be suprised if it suddenly turns up.

Rieekan-dominated metas exist in particular locales and the players there generally assume it's the same way everywhere even though it is not. When confronted with this fact (and data, such as the Regionals information collected by @shmitty ), they usually respond with some argument to the effect that they live in the cutting-edge meta and the questioner is a pleb operating in a non-competitive environment. It gets a little tiresome, honestly.

That's not to say that Rieekan should necessarily escape the FFG nerf bat at some point or another as he's widely complained about, just I've seen this argument go down it feels like dozens of times already and would like to spare you the repetition.

I figured Rieekan and Mon Mothma were Rebel responses to how big Rhymerballs and Demolisher were. Massed fighters are also a response to those two aspects of Imperial strategy.

10 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I figured Rieekan and Mon Mothma were Rebel responses to how big Rhymerballs and Demolisher were. Massed fighters are also a response to those two aspects of Imperial strategy.

I don't think that is the issue. for starters, Mon Mothma isn't even that common. sure, she is a powerful commander, but Rieekan, Ackbar and Dodonna are more common.

Rieekan is a thing because, while being useful to ships, he also gives bonus to fighters.

fighters are a thing because, point-for-point, fighters deal more damage than ships, and are harder to kill since only AA dice are used .

example: an ISD-I costs 110 points. it throws 3 red, 2 blue, 3 black; 5 dice with 0,75 damage, 3 dice with 1.0 damage. on average, the ISD deals 6,75 damage, plus it must be the front arc. plus shoot-then-move(harder to direct the firepower against a mobile target)

for the same cost (110 points, actualy 108), you get 9 TIE advanced. i will NOT even comment on bombers. just 9 TIE advanced. 9 black dice with average 0.75 damage each(due to not being bomber, otherwise bblack dice are 1,0) . 6,75 damage on average. plus you moveTHEN shoot, i.e. easier to direct. plus the attacks are seperate so brace doesnt work against this damage.

this is not a rant. squadrons should be important in star wars. just comparing to display WHY squadrons are a thing.

17 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

I don't think that is the issue. for starters, Mon Mothma isn't even that common. sure, she is a powerful commander, but Rieekan, Ackbar and Dodonna are more common.

Rieekan is a thing because, while being useful to ships, he also gives bonus to fighters.

fighters are a thing because, point-for-point, fighters deal more damage than ships, and are harder to kill since only AA dice are used .

example: an ISD-I costs 110 points. it throws 3 red, 2 blue, 3 black; 5 dice with 0,75 damage, 3 dice with 1.0 damage. on average, the ISD deals 6,75 damage, plus it must be the front arc. plus shoot-then-move(harder to direct the firepower against a mobile target)

for the same cost (110 points, actualy 108), you get 9 TIE advanced. i will NOT even comment on bombers. just 9 TIE advanced. 9 black dice with average 0.75 damage each(due to not being bomber, otherwise bblack dice are 1,0) . 6,75 damage on average. plus you moveTHEN shoot, i.e. easier to direct. plus the attacks are seperate so brace doesnt work against this damage.

this is not a rant. squadrons should be important in star wars. just comparing to display WHY squadrons are a thing.

That's not a great comparison. Those Tie Advanced will require 2-3 ships to command them, which are not getting to use other commands. The ISD also has a second arc which it really ought to be using in this scenario, which adds 3.5 average damage- Or you take gunnery teams. Of course, range complicates this, as does the different mobility options available to ships compared to squadrons.

I'm not saying it isn't worth looking at the damage potential of squadrons, but that was a bit of a strawman argument.

21 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

I don't think that is the issue. for starters, Mon Mothma isn't even that common. sure, she is a powerful commander, but Rieekan, Ackbar and Dodonna are more common.

Rieekan is a thing because, while being useful to ships, he also gives bonus to fighters.

fighters are a thing because, point-for-point, fighters deal more damage than ships, and are harder to kill since only AA dice are used .

example: an ISD-I costs 110 points. it throws 3 red, 2 blue, 3 black; 5 dice with 0,75 damage, 3 dice with 1.0 damage. on average, the ISD deals 6,75 damage, plus it must be the front arc. plus shoot-then-move(harder to direct the firepower against a mobile target)

for the same cost (110 points, actualy 108), you get 9 TIE advanced. i will NOT even comment on bombers. just 9 TIE advanced. 9 black dice with average 0.75 damage each(due to not being bomber, otherwise bblack dice are 1,0) . 6,75 damage on average. plus you moveTHEN shoot, i.e. easier to direct. plus the attacks are seperate so brace doesnt work against this damage.

this is not a rant. squadrons should be important in star wars. just comparing to display WHY squadrons are a thing.

Yes, but you also have to account for what pushes the fighters. Let's go cheap and say 3 Gozanti Carriers with Expanded Hangar Bays at 28 points apiece - that's nearly 200 points against a 110-point investment. Of COURSE it's going to do more damage! Cut the fighter/pusher investment down to match the ISD and let's do a comparison...

Ahhh, ninja'd.

7 minutes ago, Squark said:

That's not a great comparison. Those Tie Advanced will require 2-3 ships to command them, which are not getting to use other commands. The ISD also has a second arc which it really ought to be using in this scenario, which adds 3.5 average damage- Or you take gunnery teams.

I'm not saying it isn't worth looking at the damage potential of squadrons, but that was a bit of a strawman argument.

if you wanna go strict, we could talk about the damage 4 x firesprays with BCC put out. we should also mention that actualy *getting to fire at blue range* is not as easy as it sounds for capital ships- usualy you only get to do that 1-2 turns per game, whereas squadrons moveTHENshoot, so can keep firing at things. sure, if all your opponent does is run speed 1-2 ships and come at you, thats fine. but if he actualy uses speed 3+ and good maneuvrability, then dodging away is no problem.

I repeat this is OK. i think the main problem currently is the "Relay run-away-all-game-meta", not squadrons. remember the last pre-relay vassal tournament, it wasnt all about massed bomber fleets.