2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Again, the JMK is NOT the only scums OP ships. There is currently a trio of 3 ships that deserve the title.

You want solutions regarding the Scuurg:

- Make it a 2 dice primary attack

- Make it no EPT like the kwing and the Punisher

There you go, balanced ship! Its not that hard.

IMO Cad is just as good as Sabine and even better because he allows any ship with a crew slot to equip bombs. I have not seen it mentioned yet but gearing the YT with a corner net is a pretty good way to protect is one major weakness...

Now you compare the Scuurg with Miranda and you totally neglect 3 major facts:

- The EPT!!! Push the limit, VI, Mindlink, etc... so many possibility added by that one single element alone.

- Bombs have many roles and many ways to be effective. You really dont seem to get that one. Bomblets can be used as a really effective defensive tool.

- Both ships are not going to be played in the same environment. They are not going to be played the same way at all or have the same functions. Where Miranda is the star of the show, i see the scuurg as a terribly effective wingman. Fenn will love him thats 100% sure.

Anyway, for now it's all theory crafting. I cant wait a couple of month after release when this ship is making top charts to come back here and say "told you so". Just like when people said Palp and the defender nerf were small changes and Imps just needed to adapt to get back into the game. Look where we are now. Worst thing is you said it yourself, this ship is extremely effective at hunting not just aces but anything with low health. There is an entire faction built around that type of ship.

It's all a question of timing and priority. If FFG had given the tool to properly defend against that kind of stuff BEFORE releasing it, nobody would be complaining. Allow some defense vs bombs and suddenly we have a whole new meta. Same thing for the Palp and defender nerf. Give the Imperial some viable alternative before nerfing the 2 things that were making them work and absolutely nobody would be complaining about the change.

There is a significant difference between good and OP, if you're gonna make the claim that the Protectorate and the Caster are OP you better make a **** good argument. Something like the old Phantom, Fat han, or the more recent Torpedo Boats were OP because they had such a drastic effect on the meta that you had to bring direct counters to have any chance, S&V's other ships hardly fall under that category. You could possibly loosely count Fenn, but he's still an ace and dies to the usual ace hate or a bad roll of the green die. Not to mention that every faction currently has something that's just as good in it's own way.

If I come off as condescending this is why, it's hard to take you seriously when you make such bold claims with little to no argument or evidence to back them.

Oh in case you forgot, Sabine adds a bomb slot as well, cost the same as Cad, and while Cad gives bombs reliable damage Sabine gives bombs guaranteed damage. Sabine is better in every single aspect than Cad and yet you think he needs a nerf, why? The only argument to be had is that Cad can ride inside the JM5k, but once again we all agree that the JM5K should be nerfed so it's silly to balance things around it, plus while annoying I seriously doubt it will replace torpedoes for the JM5K.

As for it's comparison to the Punisher...just don't. We all know they screwed up making the Punisher. I'll tell you the same thing I told the other guy, balancing a card around another card that you already know to be broken is stupid. It serves absolutely no purpose and just means you have 2 ships that never see play instead of 1 making it so you have ever more things to go back and fix. Yet another reason I have a hard time taking you seriously, you want ships to be made DOA for seemingly no other reason that inter-faction spite.

For the K-wing....how many times do you need the same points reiterated to you and by how many different people? The EPT one of the few things the Scurrg has going for it over the K-wing. The attack is a fair trade off, 3 red die in arc vs 2 red die in a pwt. If you're bombing a target than unless your name is Deathrain you likely don't have them in arc, a built in turret is more than a fair trade for 1 less red die when it comes to bombers if nothing else.

And for the rest of your argument, is it really an argument? You blabber on about how useful bombs are but I'm wondering what that has to do with the argument that the Scurrg is a better bomber when they both have the exact same amount of bomb slots and can both use the new Bomblet, you know it's not unique to S&V right?

As for the actual use of bombs without the use of SLAM, we don't need to theory craft, it's a known quantity. Bombs have been around for a long, long time, but how often did you honestly see them before the K-wing came along? Maybe a Seismic charge here or there to fill in points but they definitely weren't common and it's not hard to figure out why, they're easily dodged, situational, one shot only upgrades with questionable reliability. The effort in using them was rarely worth the results, simple as that. The Bomblet fixes one problem, but it changes none of the other aforementioned problems.

Now I honestly think Nym is probably gonna be the only Scurrg we actually see just because with his ability, PS, and genius he can reliably put those bombs where you want them. We might also see Rebel Nym as his ability to make any bomb into a remote mine could prove to be extremely useful(Kinda Jealous). With that being said he's the only one that even compares to a bog standard K-wing with Adv.Slam, the K-wing is still the strictly better bomber overall. SLAM is just that good.

I'm not entirely sure how long the development for each wave is but I do know they're working on several at once in various stages of development to maintain a constant release schedule. In all likelihood this thing could of been in the early stages of development back when Aces were freaking everywhere and people wanted more reliable counters. You act as if FFG just thinks these waves up in a month and releases them the day after, it's not like they can just drop their entire release schedule every time someone wants to act like a petulant child because they feel their preferred plastic toy ships aren't as love as the other guys plastic toy ships.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Again, the JMK is NOT the only scums OP ships. There is currently a trio of 3 ships that deserve the title.

You want solutions regarding the Scuurg:

- Make it a 2 dice primary attack

- Make it no EPT like the kwing and the Punisher

There you go, balanced ship! Its not that hard.

That's not a balanced ship. It's an underpowered one. Sure, it has an extra attack die over a kwing, but the kwing at least has a pwt to help make up for it.

Quote

IMO Cad is just as good as Sabine and even better because he allows any ship with a crew slot to equip bombs.

...so does Sabine. And Sabine does a guaranteed extra damage. If you reroll 2 dice with cad he'll average 1 extra damage. And can't add any above what the dice roll if they get all hits/crits to start.

Quote

Now you compare the Scuurg with Miranda and you totally neglect 3 major facts:

- The EPT!!! Push the limit, VI, Mindlink, etc... so many possibility added by that one single element alone.

It does have this one over Miranda. Miranda has built in regen AND attack buffs. Scurrg can't throw a 5 die homing missile by itself or regen with one shot off a tlt.

Quote

- Bombs have many roles and many ways to be effective. You really dont seem to get that one. Bomblets can be used as a really effective defensive tool.

Also applies to Miranda.

Quote

Anyway, for now it's all theory crafting. I cant wait a couple of month after release when this ship is making top charts to come back here and say "told you so". Just like when people said Palp and the defender nerf were small changes and Imps just needed to adapt to get back into the game. Look where we are now.

Where we are now? Palp top 16 at worlds. Palp winning multiple store championships and making the cut at more. Defenders ((x7 no less) winning multiple store championship ships. Imperials in general doing pretty well at store championships once people adapted.

this ship making top charts is fine as long as it isn't blowing every other ship away. New ships are allowed to be good. We just don't want them to be op.

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Worst thing is you said it yourself, this ship is extremely effective at hunting not just aces but anything with low health. There is an entire faction built around that type of ship.

If you mean imperials, the most common ships right now are probably the sf, defender and decimator. Which also happen to be the least vulnerable ships in the faction to bombs. Traditional Aces are stil going to struggle, but that's new the case since kwing bombs took off

Quote

It's all a question of timing and priority. If FFG had given the tool to properly defend against that kind of stuff BEFORE releasing it, nobody would be complaining. Allow some defense vs bombs and suddenly we have a whole new meta. Same thing for the Palp and defender nerf. Give the Imperial some viable alternative before nerfing the 2 things that were making them work and absolutely nobody would be complaining about the change.

They had em. Just took people a while to start using them.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

The firespray was already really close to being good. Im not 100% sure on that one but i think the bomblets might give the ship the small boost it needed.

Boba and kath were close. Emon less so. The problem with bomblet on him is that he's too low PS to be as useful as they are on a higher pilot. Yes you can do area denial, but harder to actually hurt people with em.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

IMO trying to play the Scuurg as you would with the k-wing is a mistake. The bomblets are not meant to be just an offensive tool. You gotta think about the potential synergy with other pilots, like Fenn, Ketsu or Asajj. I have said it before and im really confident about this. The best version of the ship is the generic equipped with TLT and bomblet.

I agree that it's good for area denial. I don't think tlt + bomblet on a generic willl be the best build though.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Manaroo with Cad will be a problem unless FAQed. Thats 100% sure IMO.

If Miranda is taking cad and bombs you're spending more points on her, meaning less on the rest of your squad, and she's losing the utility of other crew.

also depends what she's up against. If you're flying a low health ace, it'll proabably suck for you. If you have higher hp it's less of a big deal.

I think the PS 6 pilot, Sol Sixxa, with "Genius" could be a good answer to the K-wing and it's Advanced SLAM. I would like to see the "atomic mushroom" graph of different places you can place a conner net for this guy as they did it for the K-wing and proton or ion bombs or thermal detonators, or action bombs. If instead of "Genius", he uses Experimental Interface and barrel roll, this guy could drop action bombs in crazy places.

Remember the Scurgg will have Talon-rolls after which it can place a reveal bomb with the help of "Genius". And then attack.
If the maneuver chosen isn't red, he could drop a reveal bomb left or right, then barrel roll the other way to get out of the blast radius. And with most reveal bombs, he doesn't need Cad Bane.

And we aren't accounting for EPT, or systems. Collision Detector, at 0 points, could let him barrel roll over a rock to place a mine on top of someone sitting at the other side. Veteran Instincts would put him at the same PS as Miranda for the same cost.

Sol Sixxa with Havoc, "Genius", Seismic Chargesx2, Extra Munitions, Accuracy Corrector, Autoblaster Turret, and Veteran Instincts is 28+2+2+2+3+1=38 points, for PS 8, 4 bombs instadamage (that can be dropped in 3 different places even when blocked, stressed or flew over a rock), plus range 1 turret 2x instadamage, plus normal 3 red dice primary for when everything else fails.

The only thing this guy is missing is regen, but he has better dial than the K-wing, 1 more health and barrel rolls. And he is trickier, because you want to keep him in arc, but not so close that he drops a bomb and accuracy corrected autoblaster turret in your face.

7 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

I think the PS 6 pilot, Sol Sixxa , with " Genius " could be a good answer to the K-wing and it's Advanced SLAM . I would like to see the "atomic mushroom" graph of different places you can place a conner net for this guy as they did it for the K-wing and proton or ion bombs or thermal detonators , or action bombs. If instead of " Genius ", he uses Experimental Interface and barrel roll, this guy could drop action bombs in crazy places.

Remember the Scurgg will have Talon-rolls after which it can place a reveal bomb with the help of " Genius ". And then attack.
If the maneuver chosen isn't red, he could drop a reveal bomb left or right, then barrel roll the other way to get out of the blast radius. And with most reveal bombs, he doesn't need Cad Bane .

And we aren't accounting for EPT, or systems. Collision Detector , at 0 points, could let him barrel roll over a rock to place a mine on top of someone sitting at the other side. Veteran Instincts would put him at the same PS as Miranda for the same cost.

Sol Sixxa with Havoc , " Genius ", Seismic Chargesx2, Extra Munitions , Accuracy Corrector , Autoblaster Turret , and Veteran Instincts is 28+2+2+2+3+1=38 points, for PS 8, 4 bombs instadamage (that can be dropped in 3 different places even when blocked, stressed or flew over a rock), plus range 1 turret 2x instadamage, plus normal 3 red dice primary for when everything else fails.

The only thing this guy is missing is regen, but he has better dial than the K-wing, 1 more health and barrel rolls. And he is trickier, because you want to keep him in arc, but not so close that he drops a bomb and accuracy corrected autoblaster turret in your face.

If I was going to run Sol with reveal bombs, I'd probably just take bomblet generator. Personally I'm running bomblet/genius nym alongside cad/action drop sol.

17 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

I added this to your well-penned thought trail.

And sir, this makes you a fine example of optimism, I applaud you. But I honestly have not any optimism left for the FFG designers after the slowness of issuing the rest of the balancing FAQ; and the unleashing of this crazy boost to Scum Expansion. I haven't any optimism for FFG fixing this mess....seems they are just throwing gas on the proverbial dumpster fire.

So the tanky regen Rebels is still intact, and they also have the best bombing platform and crew period. Imperials do not have Arc dodging to themselves anymore as every faction has barrel-rolling and re-positioning now and the Scum can even barrel roll large base s**ts; bombing is and will future obliterate that mode of operation anyway. And last but the opposite of least, the Scum faction has the best pilots, the best ships and the most action efficiency by far and can do what every other faction can do almost better on every point...even shield regen. If those designer's actually stated what you're claiming, and I'll bet they did at some point, I have no reason to doubt it, then they have either forgotten it, have completely changed their minds, or they don't give a crap about that anymore. If anyone can find it in a video or audio, post it on the forum, that would be grand to see......and sad as h***.

Perhaps I was overly optimistic with my summation of the newest expansion, and yes the K-Wings slam makes it easily the most versatile bomber in the game so far , though I don't see myself as an FFG defender as they have made obviously poor decisions in the past (much to my dismay), they do tend to plan these waves out ahead of time and this is mostblikely a response to a now defunct meta. Still though with bombing (other than Sabine) requiring slightly more skill (in my opinion) than TLT spam or certain large based ships that can ignore obstacles it may help bring back the idea of planning moves turns ahead and promoting great piloting. Then again as some users have already mentioned to me, the auto drop bomb from the "Bomblet Generator" will be used Avery turn regardless. Still though I am hopeful for bombs and the future of this game, we may not see the fall of the jump masters or this current meta for another season but heck, I'll be damned if I don't enjoy blasting one of those mindlinked suckers apart with what the "sweater" players call B-Teams. I stand by my philosophy in the face of this meta or any other: if you put enough time and heart into a list and practising it you can beat anything, all you need is strategy and practise. It's not necessarily where the competitive game is now (and there are those in my "casual group" that consider me to be a try hard for practising flying around p my bench with a handful o' pennies) but it's where I hope the game can be. And it's not only up to the FFG designers to make it happen but also us. Meta will always exist in some form, it's up to us to rise against the netlists and prevail due to our effort. But yeah FFG needs to get some stuff sorted - _ -.

as for each faction having something unique, they sort of do however their flavours are far less distinct than they used to be, as for scum having the best well everything. I think this may be an overstatement although they do have the best combinations of cards and ships in terms of list creating, once (if) FFG either nerfs them or releases something to beat them then maybe we will see the rise of rebels or the empire. Who knows we may have a balanced meta (eventually). Eh, may as well be hopeful.

To everyone complaining about the Scurgg's 3 attack primary. It has 6 forward laser cannons! If anything, they snubbed it for balance. Also, the primary isn't a turret.

16 hours ago, Thormind said:

I'm not asking for the Scurrg to be below average. I'm asking for it to be on par with what the other factions are getting.

11 hours ago, Thormind said:

You want solutions regarding the Scuurg:

- Make it a 2 dice primary attack

- Make it no EPT like the kwing and the Punisher

There you go, balanced ship! Its not that hard.

You are %100 actually asking for the Scurrg to be below average. Point blank, your take on "balanced" translates to "unplayable garbage fire." If this is what you consider balanced, then everything even semi-decent is overpowered, and I have a real hard time what you'd envision as "underpowered." No wonder you're so frazzled...

...or perhaps this is just what you consider balanced for Scum? Lowering the bar with new releases has no chance whatsoever of changing the meta. The meta changes with MORE competitive options, as opposed to "no good ships ever again because Jumpmasters hurt my feelings."

Making the Scurrg a flying disasterpiece won't put Imperials in any better place. Spite is a poor design principle.

11 minutes ago, sf1raptor said:

To everyone complaining about the Scurgg's 3 attack primary. It has 6 forward laser cannons! If anything, they snubbed it for balance. Also, the primary isn't a turret.

I haven't an issue with the 3 dice primary, it's the turret that I have issue with. I don't think any bomber should have one unless it had a points restriction on what turrets it could take or it looses it's torpedo slots....something; it's way to flexible. Honestly, I think from a game design perspective, being able to bomb and TLT from the same platform is absolutely nuts. And, let's be honest, stack that with Advanced Slam and Regen and well, though that's another discussion altogether, it's stupid.

22 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I haven't an issue with the 3 dice primary, it's the turret that I have issue with. I don't think any bomber should have one unless it had a points restriction on what turrets it could take or it looses it's torpedo slots....something; it's way to flexible. Honestly, I think from a game design perspective, being able to bomb and TLT from the same platform is absolutely nuts. And, let's be honest, stack that with Advanced Slam and Regen and well, though that's another discussion altogether, it's stupid.

Exactly.

I do take issue with the fact that every ship needs a 3-dice primary now, but since this thing will ultimately be using its turret and bomb upgrades for attack so it hardly needs a stand-alone attack value.
There's also the issue of relative stats. This thing has 5 hull and 5 shields. You know what has less total hit points than that? The U-Wing (a large-base ships) and every other small-based Rebel ship . Clearly FFG regrets the power creep and is choosing to exacerbate the problem by making all future ships massive. How the **** did this thing stay small base and get that much health? Seriously?

9 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Exactly.

I do take issue with the fact that every ship needs a 3-dice primary now, but since this thing will ultimately be using its turret and bomb upgrades for attack so it hardly needs a stand-alone attack value.
There's also the issue of relative stats. This thing has 5 hull and 5 shields. You know what has less total hit points than that? The U-Wing (a large-base ships) and every other small-based Rebel ship . Clearly FFG regrets the power creep and is choosing to exacerbate the problem by making all future ships massive. How the **** did this thing stay small base and get that much health? Seriously?

it's really not that big a deal, being only 1 health over the K or ARC and is a point more expensive than both (the K even has a point of PS over the PS 3 SCURGG) assuming the PS 3 is 26 points, which is a safe bet that falls along ffg's normal ps scaling

it'll still die fast and hard, possibly lasting only one jm5k turret shot after torps before biting the dust

people really are blowing the SCURGG out of proportion, forgetting how easily and quickly 1 agi burns down to everything. It is guaranteed green dice based defenses (such as evades/thrusters + focus) that make a ship difficult to kill, hence why you see thruster/title Rau + mindlink almost everywhere. In a straight TLT match with Miranda (Regen), the SCURGG should always lose unless they get into it with Miranda at 1 hull.

not to mention the U-wing is **** awful and FFG screwed up bad with it. Given the SCURGG is really only impressive when compared to crap like the U or B, it's really not impressive at all. It's just not shite

58 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I haven't an issue with the 3 dice primary, it's the turret that I have issue with. I don't think any bomber should have one unless it had a points restriction on what turrets it could take or it looses it's torpedo slots....something; it's way to flexible. Honestly, I think from a game design perspective, being able to bomb and TLT from the same platform is absolutely nuts. And, let's be honest, stack that with Advanced Slam and Regen and well, though that's another discussion altogether, it's stupid.

I don't think it is nuts. 1 PS Scurrg + TLT + Bomblet generator is 33 pts (1/3 of your list) and will go down in 2 turns. You get to shoot your TLT once, and maybe drop a bomb. Pretty weak combo IMO.

Y-wings can do the same for less points.

19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's really not that big a deal

The SCURRG has more health than three large-based ships (U-Wing, Aggressor, and JM5k) and just as many HP as the following large-based ships:

- Firespray
- Lambda Class Shuttle
- Lancer-Class Pursuit Craft
- YT-2400

So that's having more or the same health as a majority of large-based ships currently in the game. Genuinely, walk me through how that makes sense.

The Scurrg is overall pretty average. What IS good is Bomblet Generator, and the extra unique synergies allowed from EPT/System/Droid etc with the Havoc title.

Like the Starviper with Vizago I've not seen any generic Scurrg builds that worry me, but I've seen some very cool ~50pt Captain Nym builds which play with those potential synergies.

2 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

The SCURRG has more health than three large-based ships (U-Wing, Aggressor, and JM5k) and just as many HP as the following large-based ships:

- Firespray
- Lambda Class Shuttle
- Lancer-Class Pursuit Craft
- YT-2400

So that's having more or the same health as a majority of large-based ships currently in the game. Genuinely, walk me through how that makes sense.

it's a fat as **** ship that's actually as large (if not larger) than large base ships i.t.o. scale

it's certainly going to be bigger than the relatively tiny Aggressor or U

it's on a small base for gameplay balance purpose, given its primary role as a bomber would suck absolute *** on a large base that is 4 times larger and roughly 4 times as likely to run into asteroids and other ships which makes it very difficult to drop ACTION bombs

2 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

So that's having more or the same health as a majority of large-based ships currently in the game. Genuinely, walk me through how that makes sense.

Maybe this space metal the Scurrg is made from is tougher than the other space metal?

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

Maybe this space metal the Scurrg is made from is tougher than the other space metal?

nah, it just seems physically larger than even the K or ARC (which are, in term, also bigger or as big as certain large base ships) judging by the preview image

from a bird's eye view, I can at least see the base on those two ships

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's on a small base for gameplay balance purpose, given its primary role as a bomber would suck absolute *** on a large base that is 4 times larger and roughly 4 times as likely to run into asteroids and other ships which makes it very difficult to drop ACTION bombs

That makes sense. Got it. So if the Scrugg was not a Scum release, but say an Imperial, it could have had the same stats but be on a large base. I get FFG's design logic now.

17 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

That makes sense. Got it. So if the Scrugg was not a Scum release, but say an Imperial, it could have had the same stats but be on a large base. I get FFG's design logic now.

well no, that's just a complete nonsequitar with no logical basis whatsoever

see, imps already got a large small ship in the punisher, but FFG ****** that up for whatever reason while they made the K, from the same wave, incredible (and far superior to the base SCURGG imo). Then they kinda flipped that dynamic on its head with Imp Vets v Heroes despite the T-70 being horrid, but that's another story

the SCURGG is basically FFG learning from the punisher and making a large, small base bomber that doesn't utterly suck

maybe they chose, small base to represent how movable it is. and how it handles turning

8 minutes ago, the1hodgy said:

maybe they chose, small base to represent how movable it is. and how it handles turning

and relative speed

the engines are relatively small for something so large

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

and relative speed

the engines are relatively small for something so large

small base 5 isn't as fast as large base 5.

who knows what FFG was thinking, but makes sense in my head

9 hours ago, BomberGob said:

There is a significant difference between good and OP, if you're gonna make the claim that the Protectorate and the Caster are OP you better make a **** good argument. Something like the old Phantom, Fat han, or the more recent Torpedo Boats were OP because they had such a drastic effect on the meta that you had to bring direct counters to have any chance, S&V's other ships hardly fall under that category. You could possibly loosely count Fenn, but he's still an ace and dies to the usual ace hate or a bad roll of the green die. Not to mention that every faction currently has something that's just as good in it's own way.

If I come off as condescending this is why, it's hard to take you seriously when you make such bold claims with little to no argument or evidence to back them.

Oh in case you forgot, Sabine adds a bomb slot as well, cost the same as Cad, and while Cad gives bombs reliable damage Sabine gives bombs guaranteed damage. Sabine is better in every single aspect than Cad and yet you think he needs a nerf, why? The only argument to be had is that Cad can ride inside the JM5k, but once again we all agree that the JM5K should be nerfed so it's silly to balance things around it, plus while annoying I seriously doubt it will replace torpedoes for the JM5K.

As for it's comparison to the Punisher...just don't. We all know they screwed up making the Punisher. I'll tell you the same thing I told the other guy, balancing a card around another card that you already know to be broken is stupid. It serves absolutely no purpose and just means you have 2 ships that never see play instead of 1 making it so you have ever more things to go back and fix. Yet another reason I have a hard time taking you seriously, you want ships to be made DOA for seemingly no other reason that inter-faction spite.

For the K-wing....how many times do you need the same points reiterated to you and by how many different people? The EPT one of the few things the Scurrg has going for it over the K-wing. The attack is a fair trade off, 3 red die in arc vs 2 red die in a pwt. If you're bombing a target than unless your name is Deathrain you likely don't have them in arc, a built in turret is more than a fair trade for 1 less red die when it comes to bombers if nothing else.

And for the rest of your argument, is it really an argument? You blabber on about how useful bombs are but I'm wondering what that has to do with the argument that the Scurrg is a better bomber when they both have the exact same amount of bomb slots and can both use the new Bomblet, you know it's not unique to S&V right?

As for the actual use of bombs without the use of SLAM, we don't need to theory craft, it's a known quantity. Bombs have been around for a long, long time, but how often did you honestly see them before the K-wing came along? Maybe a Seismic charge here or there to fill in points but they definitely weren't common and it's not hard to figure out why, they're easily dodged, situational, one shot only upgrades with questionable reliability. The effort in using them was rarely worth the results, simple as that. The Bomblet fixes one problem, but it changes none of the other aforementioned problems.

Now I honestly think Nym is probably gonna be the only Scurrg we actually see just because with his ability, PS, and genius he can reliably put those bombs where you want them. We might also see Rebel Nym as his ability to make any bomb into a remote mine could prove to be extremely useful(Kinda Jealous). With that being said he's the only one that even compares to a bog standard K-wing with Adv.Slam, the K-wing is still the strictly better bomber overall. SLAM is just that good.

I'm not entirely sure how long the development for each wave is but I do know they're working on several at once in various stages of development to maintain a constant release schedule. In all likelihood this thing could of been in the early stages of development back when Aces were freaking everywhere and people wanted more reliable counters. You act as if FFG just thinks these waves up in a month and releases them the day after, it's not like they can just drop their entire release schedule every time someone wants to act like a petulant child because they feel their preferred plastic toy ships aren't as love as the other guys plastic toy ships.

Saying someone is ignorant because he doesnt share your opinions is not just condesending, it's insulting. As for the validity of my arguments, many people on this forum seem to often agree with me. The only time i saw most users disagree with me is when i said it would be nice to have the Vong in Xwing :-)

Why do i think the 2 ships are OP:

- For 39 points you get an amazingly effective ship with Asajj+Latts. That ship has a 3 dice primary that might as well be a PWT. It applies stress way too easily and create a range 1-2 bubble around itself where many other ships dont want to be. It's more survivable than most other large ships and it has an amazing dial (best of the game for large ship IMO). What are the drawbacks? Absolutely none. Only the JMK can compete with it in term of point for point value. It's impact on the meta isnt as big as the JMK but it's still major.

- Protectorate: do i need to give arguments has to why Fenn is better than any other ace in the game?? On list juggler the closest ace on the list (pilot) is whisper, in 28th position. If you count Omega Leader has an Ace (i dont) then it's him in 17th position. Fenn is in #1 position, before the Scouts, Dengar and Asajj. Do i really have to say why hes so much ahead??

I know Sabine add a bomb slot. But on the current Rebel rooster it almost doesnt matter. It certainly wont have the same impact has adding bombs to a JMK or a YT. Again Cad and her wont evolve in the same context which is a major factor when evaluating a card value and impact on the game. Make Sabine an Imperial instead of a rebel and absolutely no one would be talking about her. Make Cad a Rebel only instead of scum and yes, Sabine would be better. But you dont evaluate an element in itself in a Wargame or a TCG, you got to take into account the game settings as well. I havent done the maths but being able to reroll all misses is quite often has good (or really close) as doing 1dmg+dices you cant mod. The more dices you roll, the better he becomes.

As for Scuurg vs Punisher fair enough, ill give you that one. I did point out that both the kwing AND the punisher did not have an EPT though. For the kwing, you are still trying to compare them using the way the kwing is currently played which is, i think, a big mistake. For that part we cant really argue because it hasnt seen enough play yet. Thats what i would qualify as Theory crafting...

You say my arguments are weak and then you tell me that both ships are equal in term of bombing because they have the same number of bomb slots and they can use the same bombs?? If thats not what you are saying im sorry but i dont understant why you mentionned this fact... Again the use of the word "blabber" is not respectful here.

We dont know how the Scuurg will perform with bombs without SLAM because: 1- it's a totally unique bomber with aspect that were not present before. 2- It will be performing in a faction that did not have a proper bomber so no way to evaluate what kind of impact it will have. Yep, we are currently theory crafting so we are on the level of personnal opinions here.

Now for FFG development cycle and testing methods, just like you, i do not know what they look like. All im saying is with past and current examples we have, it's looking like they have more and more problems making products that maintain a proper game balance. For example if the changes to Palp and the defenders had been tested properly, it would not have been that hard to see what kind of impact it would have on the game. It would have made a lot more sense to then postpone the nerf until you have a way to do it without bringing down an entire faction.

1 hour ago, E Chu Ta said:

You are %100 actually asking for the Scurrg to be below average. Point blank, your take on "balanced" translates to "unplayable garbage fire." If this is what you consider balanced, then everything even semi-decent is overpowered, and I have a real hard time what you'd envision as "underpowered." No wonder you're so frazzled...

...or perhaps this is just what you consider balanced for Scum? Lowering the bar with new releases has no chance whatsoever of changing the meta. The meta changes with MORE competitive options, as opposed to "no good ships ever again because Jumpmasters hurt my feelings."

Making the Scurrg a flying disasterpiece won't put Imperials in any better place. Spite is a poor design principle.

11 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

That's not a balanced ship. It's an underpowered one. Sure, it has an extra attack die over a kwing, but the kwing at least has a pwt to help make up for it.

It still has a TLT, a better dial than other bombers, a way to boost bombs, a 3 dice primary attack, 5h/5s/1agi and many nice available upgrades. It would be far from a disaster. It would be... balanced.

11 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Where we are now? Palp top 16 at worlds. Palp winning multiple store championships and making the cut at more. Defenders ((x7 no less) winning multiple store championship ships. Imperials in general doing pretty well at store championships once people adapted.

this ship making top charts is fine as long as it isn't blowing every other ship away. New ships are allowed to be good. We just don't want them to be op.

If you mean imperials, the most common ships right now are probably the sf, defender and decimator. Which also happen to be the least vulnerable ships in the faction to bombs. Traditional Aces are stil going to struggle, but that's new the case since kwing bombs took off

They had em. Just took people a while to start using them.

Boba and kath were close. Emon less so. The problem with bomblet on him is that he's too low PS to be as useful as they are on a higher pilot. Yes you can do area denial, but harder to actually hurt people with em.

I agree that it's good for area denial. I don't think tlt + bomblet on a generic willl be the best build though.

If Miranda is taking cad and bombs you're spending more points on her, meaning less on the rest of your squad, and she's losing the utility of other crew.

also depends what she's up against. If you're flying a low health ace, it'll proabably suck for you. If you have higher hp it's less of a big deal.

The imperial had exactly 1 ship in the to 16 and none in the top 8. You really think thats balanced? The developer said the rebels underperformed a little at the 2016 World even if they had much better results. Before the nerf scums were still dominating but at least both other factions were able to compete.

On List juggler the 1st buit with a ship that can equip Palp is in 24th position (RAC+X). But even if the built can equip him most people dont. The first one to actually be built around Palp is in 44th position. Commonwealth defenders are now in 71st position. The first overall imperial built is in 12th position. Imperials have not won 1 single major event (not store champs...) since the FAQ.

I think most people agree by now that they got hit way too hard by the nerf and they are in serious need of a boost. I dont know how it's reasonably possible to argue otherwise. They are in a much worst position now that the pre-FAQ rebels ever were. A few players managing to win some low priority events with a small number of participants doesnt make a faction balanced...

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's a fat as **** ship that's actually as large (if not larger) than large base ships i.t.o. scale

it's certainly going to be bigger than the relatively tiny Aggressor or U

it's on a small base for gameplay balance purpose, given its primary role as a bomber would suck absolute *** on a large base that is 4 times larger and roughly 4 times as likely to run into asteroids and other ships which makes it very difficult to drop ACTION bombs

Okay, I've just been (incorrectly) associating size with a direct relationship to hull/shield. But if FFG and FGD say it isn't so, so it must be.

2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

That makes sense. Got it. So if the Scrugg was not a Scum release, but say an Imperial, it could have had the same stats but be on a large base. I get FFG's design logic now.

This. FGD, whatever you're about say to counter this...

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

well no, that's just a complete nonsequitar with no logical basis whatsoever

see, imps already got a large small ship in the punisher, but FFG ****** that up for whatever reason while they made the K, from the same wave, incredible (and far superior to the base SCURGG imo). Then they kinda flipped that dynamic on its head with Imp Vets v Heroes despite the T-70 being horrid, but that's another story

the SCURGG is basically FFG learning from the punisher and making a large, small base bomber that doesn't utterly suck

... ain't gonna make @clanofwolves point less true. Imperials are getting **** lately and it's all because Fel ran weekly game nights for what, a year or two?

2 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

The SCURRG has more health than three large-based ships (U-Wing, Aggressor, and JM5k) and just as many HP as the following large-based ships:

- Firespray
- Lambda Class Shuttle
- Lancer-Class Pursuit Craft
- YT-2400

So that's having more or the same health as a majority of large-based ships currently in the game. Genuinely, walk me through how that makes sense.

All of those ships, except the Lambda (which is cheaper), have 2 Agility or higher. Scurrg has 1 Agility. It might have more health but it will die faster. What doesn't make sense to you?

25 minutes ago, jesper_h said:

All of those ships, except the Lambda (which is cheaper), have 2 Agility or higher. Scurrg has 1 Agility. It might have more health but it will die faster. What doesn't make sense to you?

read a bit, bud

29 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Okay, I've just been (incorrectly) associating size with a direct relationship to hull/shield. But if FFG and FGD say it isn't so, so it must be.