5 hours ago, Azrapse said:

I don't think they are incompetent, but the designers do look a bit disconnected from the game.

They never expected people to combine Deadeye with the Jumpmaster and Guidance Chips, even when all those things came in the same wave.

To be fair, before wave 8 no one ever used deadeye before the jumpmaster, and about as many people used torpedoes. The whole idea was to make torpedoes more usable (with chips), it just...went a bit overboard.

5 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Why making Integrated Astromech a Modification instead of a title or any other thing, when they knew Vectored Thrusters was coming, and the T-70 preferred Autothrusters?

It was intended more for teh T65 than the T70, but the t70 does actually use IA as well. And by not making it a title they leave open the potential to have another title for the x-wing in the future. Also, if it was a title the T70 could take it WITH autothrusters, which wasn't the intention.

5 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Why balancing the whole Rebel faction around Biggs? Doesn't it make them depend even more on fielding Biggs, then?

Because as long as biggs exists in his current form they HAVE to balance around his ability, or you end up with stuff that's OP if you pair him with biggs.

TLT may be undercosted, but not by 3 points, and it's not like it's identical to the b-wing. It's a PS lower, and has differnet upgrade slots

5 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Why Rebels and Empire/First Order keep getting shuttles (U-wing, Wookie ship, Upsilon, TIE Shuttle) when Scum is actually the faction with the best crew and lowest cost?

Shuttles are practically all we've seen for large ships from the empire. Rebels have gotten 1 large base shuttle and have other good large ships, and also have very good crew. And people are already crying about the auzituck being OP...

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

I dont know if you realize this but your tone is improper. There are ways to disagree without being disrespectful. Thats what i would define as "childish"... Now back on topic:

On the top 10 archetypes of list juggler there are 8 scum builds with 2 rebel ones and no Imperial. 1 faction is currently totally dominating the game. Do i really have to say that it isnt a good thing??? I have nothing against the scums per se. If the roles were reversed and it was the Rebels or the Imperials that were in such a position, it would still be bad for the game and people would still be upset.

This has nothing to do with the scurrg. It's all on the jumpmaster/mindlink, which will be getting nerfed at some point. Having good ships already in a faction doesn't mean that faction shouldn't get new stuff. Or that new stuff they get should be crap. If anything, new ships (and fixing old ships) opens up the possibility of there actually being more variety in lists.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

You do realize that with the incoming fix the scums will be left with only 1 below average ship (the G-1A)? Meanwhile the Rebels and the Imperial have been waiting for fixes on many of their ships for years. I'm not saying that scums ships should never get fixes or good upgrades. Just that in term of priority, it's the other 2 factions that critically need them at the moment.

Someone's forgetting the Firespray. The hwk isn't bad, but probably a bit below average as well. And scum hsa been waiting for fixes for the scyk, starviper and kihraxz literally since they were released. The protectorate was literally the onlly good scum-only small-base ship we had. Y-wings in scum are only used as TLT carriers (don't even have the stresshog). Not to mention the fact that rebel and imperial both had 2 aces packs and epic ship packs with additions for ships, while scum had non of the above.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

The K-wing is a huge problem for the Imperials and the main reason why the faction is struggling. Adding a comperable ship to the scums without giving the empire a way to defend against bombs will only make things worst.

Can't argue with the k-wing being a huge problem. I don't think the Scurrg is nearly as big a deal for a couple reasons. First, it doesn't have advanced slam, so it's a lot easier to avoid gettting bombed in the first place. Second, they have cad bane, but unlike sabine he doesn't add any auto-damage and can't do more damage than the bomb is normally capable of, it just makes it a bit more reliable.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

IAnd last but the opposite of least, the Scum faction has the best pilots, the best ships and the most action efficiency by far and can do what every other faction can do almost better on every point...even shield regen.

Sure, scum have shield regen, but it's strictly inferior to rebel regen.

23 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

This I can't believe. It's not only the Slam that makes that ship better (its's one of the reasons), but it had to be obvious that crew + turret + PWT equals a much more versatile ship than a REALLY big TIE bomber

SLAM is a huge part of what makes the k-wing so good. SLAM + Sabine is what makes bombs so scary for rebels (without slam, sbine is way less scary because you can actaully avoid getting hit in the first place). And SLAM on miranda gives her huge possibilities to arc-dodge.

2 hours ago, John Rainbow said:

I recall hearing an interview with FFG and the design team where they said they wanted each faction to have a 'flavor'. Rebels have tanky regen, Imps have arc dodging and Scum have epts on more pilots to represent the lack of standardization and motley crue of pirates.

That's all we'll and good until flavor tips balance. Rebels (and now scum) ignore the Imperials flavor of arc dodging with bombs. Scum now ignore the tanky regen by just removing ships from the board before they can regen. And the Imperials... they get good stuff that then gets nerfed or "hate card'd" out before it can do harm while other harmful things are just "tweaked".

The game is full of flavor already and mixing too many flavors together seldom works out for a "good tasting" game.

4 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

That's all we'll and good until flavor tips balance. Rebels (and now scum) ignore the Imperials flavor of arc dodging with bombs. Scum now ignore the tanky regen by just removing ships from the board before they can regen. And the Imperials... they get good stuff that then gets nerfed or "hate card'd" out before it can do harm while other harmful things are just "tweaked".

The game is full of flavor already and mixing too many flavors together seldom works out for a "good tasting" game.

This. Well penned.

And yes Scum likely got "red dice creep" to be able to blow Imperial arc dodgers out of sky when they do get them in arc (can't forget how we got here). Rebels also used to have control to make arc dodging and token stacking harder. Imperials used to have better tech than everyone else. Scum used to only have illicts. Rebels had the best crew. The current flavor mix is madness.

It's not a flavor when it all tastes like... well it's a flavor, but not a desirable one.

2 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Curious, because I precisely remember Davy saying that they were going with the theme of Scum being full with tricks (Illicit) but lacking pilots at PS 9 to represent that they weren't the very best in the galaxy, but that they didn't need to. That was between Wave 6 and 7.
Then Wave 7 came out and they got Talonbane Cobra at PS 9. Well, that was okay. Just one PS 9 pilot. But not a great one.

Then they got Dengar.

Then they got Fenn Rau.

I would argue those were all correct choices for PS9 because those pilots are every bit as good as the other Aces.

But, but, but Scum isn't a problem...
Here's your flavors:

Scum: The competitive faction
Rebels: The next competitive faction
Imperials: Passe

Is FFG out of touch? No, but they certainly are scraping the bottom...

3 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

But, but, but Scum isn't a problem...

Saying "Scum" is a problem because Jumpmasters or Mindlink is a problem is a fallacious argument. If you chipped both of those out right now, before G4H and the H-6 comes out, how much of a "problem" is Scum?

4 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Saying "Scum" is a problem because Jumpmasters or Mindlink is a problem is a fallacious argument. If you chipped both of those out right now, before G4H and the H-6 comes out, how much of a "problem" is Scum?

Saying the Jumpmaster and Mindlink are in any way separable from Scum is a fallacious argument. How do you suppose I "chip both of those out" without saying something fallacious?

Edit: Good call qualifying the H6 and G4H - 'cause those will likely cause more problems. But I'm less wary because, like the Defender and x7, we've had plenty of time with the K-fighter and Starviper - so we can plan around them more intelligently.

Scum and Villany is sort of...hard for me to buy as a 'faction', said me who is so late to the game on that one. But in light of the game, sure, it helps to have a third 'faction'.

What I don't happen to like about things I keep seeing come out of scum and villainy is they seem to hurt what is already good about the lore based stuff. I mean, I want a fair game overall, not one with autopicking Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker or whatever. However, when some Dengar thing is an autopick, it runs the risk of not feeling like Star Wars, and more like, "Stuff we made up better than Star Wars."

My own devil's advocate here...yeah it's all Star Wars, but the scum and villainy stuff is pushing the edges of not feeling like a Star Wars from the movies game anymore to me. It sounds like, played to the most number crunched degree, in FFG's X-Wing, nobody plays Imperials much anymore. And that's disappointing, if true.

11 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

But, but, but Scum isn't a problem...
Here's your flavors:

Scum: The competitive faction
Rebels: The next competitive faction
Imperials: Passe

Is FFG out of touch? No, but they certainly are scraping the bottom...

eh, Imps are doing pretty well at Store Champs going by juggler's thread

which means that, for honestly the very grand majority of x-wing players, they're pretty **** viable

5 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Saying the Jumpmaster and Mindlink are in any way separable from Scum is a fallacious argument. How do you suppose I "chip both of those out" without saying something fallacious?

it is separate, in the same way that any one ship/upgrade doesn't make the entire faction overpowered

it's not like x7s being incredibly potent overall caused an errata which nerfed the evade token in general, which would've screwed over a lot more empire ships than just the defender even though they weren't a problem

the reason this observation is at all relevant is because we get hyperbole like the ones revolving around the SCURGG because we conflate the biggest problem ship in the game with the scum faction as a whole, and then apparently enter into a panic/salt party when S&V gets a fun, decent ship

I highly doubt this is anything like GW pushing SPESS MEHRINES on everyone

2 hours ago, LordBlades said:

What exactly do you consider 'average' ?

Ships that can compete but without being overpowered.

21 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

My issue is not whether or not the SCURRG is broken or not (but probably closer to being broken than useless), my issue is that it is really hard to imagine that the SCURRG and the K-wing are supposed to be at the level of the Punisher.

That the 3 points difference between the SCURRG's and Lambda's cost can account for the massive boost it gets in upgrade slots, actions, and dial.

As of now, I can only imagine 3 possible scenarios that answers these.

- FFG designers are incompetent
- FFG favors 1 faction over the others
- FFG is planning a *massive* nerf to Jumpmaster, and they are trying to give alternative options before the FAQ hits.

One of these, (at least to my mind) has to be true. I cannot see why else would FFG do this.

The scenario is that the designers have been conservative in developing ships from the get go and gradually seen where a nominal power curve can exist while also making the occasional oversight (JM5K, TLT) in playtesting. Many things that were originally useless were testing the waters and were designed overly conservative and replaced by a later iteration. Some iterations were still underpowered. The overall intent always being to try to never overshoot the power curve target and over time when possible bring up older ships to the target level.

Development cycles are way ahead of the current meta so it can take 1-2 years for something to see the light of day that was discovered in tournament play. They try to shy away from running the FAQ all over the places with nerfs and de-nerfs on everything to attempt balance, it would get super confusing. Better to have a meta that people don't like but at least understand than to have continuous confusion over what things even do.

Ultimately I expect there will eventually be a complexity reduction akin to MTG in 6th edition and M10 where a lot of the chaff is discarded and a large amount of lessons learned are implemented.

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

it is separate, in the same way that any one ship/upgrade doesn't make the entire faction overpowered

Unfortunately, in this case you're dead wrong. The JM5k is easily exactly that.

4 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Unfortunately, in this case you're dead wrong. The JM5k is easily exactly that.

except it isn't, because you don't have to nerf the entire faction just because of the JM5k

also don't have to go into a tizzy because S&V is getting stuff like guns for hire or the SCURGG

there is literally no benefit to conflating the ship with the faction, as all problems seem to stem from the ship itself, unless one would be suggesting some kind of "scum agenda" as if scum were by far the best selling FFG product and they're trying to push more of it

but I don't see FFG as Games Workshop, and I can't imagine that's the case when Rebels and Imps are far more iconic and theoretically easier to sell based on that appeal alone

I just see it as FFG really ******* up the JM5k

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

except it isn't, because you don't have to nerf the entire faction just because of the JM5k

also don't have to go into a tizzy because S&V is getting stuff like guns for hire or the SCURGG

there is literally no benefit to conflating the ship with the faction, as all problems seem to stem from the ship itself

We need some baseline for what a "problem" is for this to be an intelligent or constructive discussion. I'll let you set that up since I'm in a tizzy.

Also, I already said I was okay with Guns for Hire. Recognize.

3 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Unfortunately, in this case you're dead wrong. The JM5k is easily exactly that.

Right, but if you removed Jumpmaster from the picture (I/E, you do a local tournament with a ban on the Jumpmaster, or the increasingly likely occurrence of a nerf errata) are Scum then still overpowered? Without additional fix cards and archetypes which G4H and Scurrg added, would they be weak even? If this is the case, then it is not Scum which is overpowered - Scum being overpowered is only a symptom of an actual problem. To blame the whole of Scum for something sells the issue short.

But, some people seem to enjoy being hurt about Scum so they stay mad. Never really followed that mentality, being angry about plastic spaceships is exhausting for me.

Just now, Rinzler in a Tie said:

We need some baseline for what a "problem" is for this to be an intelligent or constructive discussion. I'll let you set that up since I'm in a tizzy.

Also, I already said I was okay with Guns for Hire. Recognize.

well yeah, the baseline has already been established

it's the JM5k

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

...in the same way that any one ship/upgrade doesn't make the entire faction overpowered

4 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Unfortunately, in this case you're dead wrong. The JM5k is easily exactly that.

Fickle is more correct than not so many times; but I'm in with @Rinzler in a Tie here, the entire Jumpmaster Expansion was an apologetic, overpowered, under-tested cluster-f*** of an expansion. The entirety of the design for that ship was and is absolutely terrible for this game. It makes a mockery of every other ship it sets itself across from due to it's amazing cost, dial, stat line and possibilities. It's just plain broken. In response, the designers nerfed innocent cards around it and gave poor Dengar's wife a leash, but they have failed to reduce it's true power; because it power is the very chassis man, not the upgrades or modifications. But hell, Attani MindLink is only found in that godforsaken expansion too. The Jumpmaster 5000 is an X-Wing dumpster-fire.

Just now, UnitOmega said:

Right, but if you removed Jumpmaster from the picture (I/E, you do a local tournament with a ban on the Jumpmaster, or the increasingly likely occurrence of a nerf errata) are Scum then still overpowered? Without additional fix cards and archetypes which G4H and Scurrg added, would they be weak even? If this is the case, then it is not Scum which is overpowered - Scum being overpowered is only a symptom of an actual problem. To blame the whole of Scum for something sells the issue short.

But, some people seem to enjoy being hurt about Scum so they stay mad. Never really followed that mentality, being angry about plastic spaceships is exhausting for me.

That's what I'm saying. You can't simply remove a ship from play as that would be fallacious - so until the ship is addressed, the faction and ship are one and the same.

9 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Ships that can compete but without being overpowered.

I am asking because I don't think Scum has less below average ships than the other factions.

The way I see it, post C-ROC, Guns For Hire and Wave 11, if we define 'below average' as 'has no competitive build whatsoever on any pilot', Scum has G1-A (although Zuckuss might be at least worth looking at), Rebels have the B-wing and Empire has the Punisher (possibly not, between LWF, Unguided Rockets and Minefield Mapper it might move out of hopeless tier). Everything else has at least one build that you can take to a tournament and not do terrible with.

Where Scum is currently ahead of the pack IMO is at the other end: they have more top tier ships than Rebels or Empire.

6 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Ships that can compete but without being overpowered.

This definition is... soft.

Compete? In what environment? Casual Friday with no pants on and a squad made of fluff and dreams? Full battle armor tournament murder mode? The spectrum of games is so wide that the spectrum of "competitive" is equally wide. Cuddle bunny everything goes wild-style matches have no average. On the other hand...

Frankly, average doesnt have much of a place in a murder-mode tournament list. That's the point, the goal is to make the best to beat the best. If I come packing average, then I'm under armed. This could be a mistake, naiveté, or because I am a solid brass monster who thinks I can win at a handicap. If, in this context, compete means "has any capacity to function whatsoever," that is a broad enough definition to be meaningless. There's still some easy-peasy decision making as far as efficiency goes. Choosing a nearly identical but more expensive option is playing at a handicap.

In a game like this, there will always be a best, and a worst. There will always be tiers of pilots, and there will always at the top level be some casually cutthroat decision-making when it comes to list building. That is the nature of this beast.

Clamoring for new releases to be sliding in at the bottom of the power curve is a zero sum game. It’s a bummer when it happens, but you don’t fix an underpowered ship by making everything else vaguely similar to come out afterwards equally-or-more underpowered. That’s just a way to summarily remove a ship archetype from the game.

19 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I am asking because I don't think Scum has less below average ships than the other factions.

The way I see it, post C-ROC, Guns For Hire and Wave 11, if we define 'below average' as 'has no competitive build whatsoever on any pilot', Scum has G1-A (although Zuckuss might be at least worth looking at), Rebels have the B-wing and Empire has the Punisher (possibly not, between LWF, Unguided Rockets and Minefield Mapper it might move out of hopeless tier). Everything else has at least one build that you can take to a tournament and not do terrible with.

Where Scum is currently ahead of the pack IMO is at the other end: they have more top tier ships than Rebels or Empire.

Top Tier ships:

Rebel: Xwing (biggs, rest not so much), K-wing, ARC-170, T70 (mostly Jess), TIE Fighter (irony), VCX, Y-wing (stresshog), YT-2400
Imperial: TIE/SF, TIE Defender, TIE Striker, Decimator, Phantom (Whisper), TIE/FO (Omega Leader)
Scum: Jumpmaster, Protectorate, Shadowcaster, HWK (palob in mindlinked lists)

Scum doesn't have MORE top tier ships, they just have the most OP one. The other factions actually have more variety in ships they can take to a tournament and win.

20 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I am asking because I don't think Scum has less below average ships than the other factions.

The way I see it, post C-ROC, Guns For Hire and Wave 11, if we define 'below average' as 'has no competitive build whatsoever on any pilot', Scum has G1-A (although Zuckuss might be at least worth looking at), Rebels have the B-wing and Empire has the Punisher (possibly not, between LWF, Unguided Rockets and Minefield Mapper it might move out of hopeless tier). Everything else has at least one build that you can take to a tournament and not do terrible with.

Where Scum is currently ahead of the pack IMO is at the other end: they have more top tier ships than Rebels or Empire.

well that depends on whether you're talking "ships" or "pilots"

going by what I've seen most often, rebels pack K-wings (especially Miranda), Y-wings (stressY), X-wings (Biggs), Tie Fighters (Rex), T-70s (Jess), VCX-100s (Kanan ghost/phantom), and YT-2400s (Dash)

Empire seems lately compromised mainly of Special Forces (especially Quickdraw) accompanied by an FO (Omega Leader) with some sprinklings of VT-49s (cheri) and x7 defenders

Scum has, obviously, the jm5k (every pilot represented and viable, though most commonly the Scout and Dengar), the Lancer (Asajj), and the Fang (Most Rau and some Old Terry)

Scum, however, have had a rather obscene showing at worlds and I believe every list featured had a jm5k (and the winning list was two)

damnit Vander

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Scum, however, have had a rather obscene showing at worlds and I believe every list featured had a jm5k (and the winning list was two)

There was one lone non-jumpmaster scum list in the cut at worlds (palobtanni)

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

damnit Vander

Too slow

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Scum has, obviously, the jm5k (every pilot represented and viable, though most commonly the Scout and Dengar), the Lancer (Asajj), and the Fang (Most Rau and some Old Terry)

Scum, however, have had a rather obscene showing at worlds and I believe every list featured had a jm5k (and the winning list was two)

*cough*