Pretty much checked out when OP said Scum were the only faction to get generics with an EPT. I suppose that's true, as long as you ignore Green Squadron, Red Squadron Vets, Omega Squadron, Black Squadron, Glaive Squadron, Saber Squadron, Royal Guards, Gamma Vets and the various Barons of the Empire.

On 17/06/2017 at 0:11 PM, Sekac said:

*Edit* totally meant to say " actually drunk" not "scissor drunk" but scissor drunk is, will be, and always should have been a thing. So I'm keeping it. You win this round, autocorrect.

Liked for the term scissor drunk.

2 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

You're right. Clearly the amount of complaints regarding "game balance" and elements being "OP" are coming from both the casual and competitive crowds. Just like other games.

Balance problems affect every player whether they care or not, and a well written, balanced game benefits everyone . Just because you choose to stick your head in the sand and ignore them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Your 'holier than thou' attitude and condescending remarks are rude, ignorant, and unnecessary. If they are all you are going to contribute to the discussion, then I suggest you leave it. I doubt your input will be missed, by competitive and casual players alike.

46 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Balance problems affect every player whether they care or not, and a well written, balanced game benefits everyone . Just because you choose to stick your head in the sand and ignore them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Your 'holier than thou' attitude and condescending remarks are rude, ignorant, and unnecessary. If they are all you are going to contribute to the discussion, then I suggest you leave it. I doubt your input will be missed, by competitive and casual players alike.

I'm enjoying the idea that I seem to be the only one with a "holier than thou" attitude here. I can easily agree my last comment was highly sarcastic, but the initital one in this thread was based in fact: the competitive players of X-wing are the most, if not the only, people voicing complaints.

This community is just brimming over with it. It's so bad there was a thread on here the other week from a new player asking if he was crazy for enjoying a game it seemed like so many people complained about.

I get you want a balanced game, but I also get that the people who benefit most from that work for FFG. They want to sell product. Having a game where the "highest level" of play doesn't see the same or similar builds week after week helps with that. I'm sure it's their goal.

So here's a contribution: if you're losing your mind and no longer enjoying the game go do something else. I'm not even telling you to walk away from it, just take a few days off, or play it with builds that limit you in a way where you won't see what's dominating the top of the list.

Try and remember games are fun and game design isn't an exact science.

Well now...

I have a feeling... That Scum is getting all this "unfair bias" because there are going to be some really freakin cool and powerful Resistance and First Order ships from Episode 8 that will be here before you know it (or at least announced). Through these ships and the upgrades they bring I believe the playing field will be leveled for Rebel/Resistance, Imperial/First Order and Scum & Villainy.

I do not believe that anyone at FFG is pro Scum over any other faction just that Scum is probably not going to get a lot of love through the episode 8 releases which is why you are seeing the C-ROC, H-6 Scurrg and Guns for Hire Expansions now.

Eh, new triology ships have latgely underwhelmed

Except the SF, my 2nd favorite ship 'cause it's an ARC but not quite there yet

Not to say patterns must bemaintained (only analyzed) but more that we all already have cool **** and the SCURGG doesnt change that (the jm5k kinda did and does, but i doubt the SCURHG will)

Now the blight of green dice does adversely affect the empire most of all, but I remember the days when palp aces were so **** prevalent that DEATHRAIN won me a store championship. Low hp aces were a massive matchup skew from the get go due to the system of dice not being the best

1 hour ago, Flavorabledeez said:

I'm enjoying the idea that I seem to be the only one with a "holier than thou" attitude here. I can easily agree my last comment was highly sarcastic, but the initital one in this thread was based in fact: the competitive players of X-wing are the most, if not the only, people voicing complaints.

I absolutely agree that this forum is lousy with complaints. It is annoying and tedious at times. However, the difference you're missing is that competitive players are almost never taking shots at casual gamers just because they're casual gamers.

You're initial post was based in fact, but was phrased as, and clearly intended to be an attack on competitive players. It's a surprising common sentiment from "casual" gamers. There's nothing casual about a shot across the bow.

If you feel the game would be better played in non-competitive format, by all means post about it. Epic pictures, battle reports, new scenarios. Convince jaded competitive players that the grass is greener on your side.

Entering the conversation with, "hey jerks, you're doing it wrong" isn't gonna sell anybody on it.

On the occasion I peruse casual threads, they're mostly positive and that's cool. But part of the reason is because competitive players realize they have little value to add to that conversation, and the information therein has little competitive value to them, so they avoid posting.

I almost entirely play competitively. I'm not crazy serious about it because I play a lot of games. But it encourages me to travel and branch out. I've made friends all over the PNW United States and Canada. I don't have social networks online so if I want to see these people, I gotta get out. People are repainting their ships, putting LEDs and fiber optics in them, and flying them around making sound effects. The tournament scene is vibrant and positive almost all of the time. It's only online that all the wailing and gnashing of teeth happens.

There are many aspects to this game that are great. People enjoy those aspects differently. That's all, really. There isn't a wrong or right way to enjoy it.

1 hour ago, Flavorabledeez said:

I'm enjoying the idea that I seem to be the only one with a "holier than thou" attitude here. I can easily agree my last comment was highly sarcastic, but the initital one in this thread was based in fact: the competitive players of X-wing are the most, if not the only, people voicing complaints.
[cut for space]

And they only complain because they care enough to want the game to be more balanced, so that players at all levels can more easily enjoy the game by playing with what they like (rather than what's at the top of the meta) and still have a roughly equal chance.

Funnily enough, I have backed off from the game recently, eschewing the C-ROC, planning to avoid Wave 11 and not attending tournaments, but I still care enough about it to have an opinion and to voice that opinion and I'd much rather the game improved than give up on it, because I still play it.

Yours is an attitude all too common with GW's games, where even a shred of competition is looked down upon as if playing that way is somehow 'wrong', and the 'right' way is to ignore any problems and to tell anyone who suggests otherwise to 'go away' or 'stop playing', which is hardly the attitude any community should foster if it intends to expand. A forum like this one is not just an echo chamber for everyone to go 'everything is awesome and fun!', and inevitably there will be concerns voiced over balance - pretending those are somehow a problem in of themselves is deeply misguided.

The current volume of such threads, which I'd agree is excessive, is FFG's own fault for suddenly and without warning releasing 'hard' errata to cards in a fashion they hadn't before, opening up the floodgates for suggestions of more of the same, leading us to the deluge we now have where it becomes increasingly difficult to sort the genuinely good ideas from the idiotic rubbish so common on the internet.

I also find it incredible that you believe you know my X-Wing situation and, once again, talk down to me as if I don't know how to respond to what I see as the state of the game. I'm not 'losing my mind', either - all I've done is explain what I see as the problems and express disappointment, not anger, at Wave 11 seemingly not making much effort to resolve them.

Games are meant to be fun, but fun is a very subjective term, and what it means for you is not necessarily equivalent to what it means for someone else. For me personally, I like any game I play to have enough balance that 'viable' options are not so narrow as they currently are in X-Wing. I've always stayed away from the most common 'netlists', but when I lose to even elements of those lists (Fenn Rau is a good example since he is bloody everywhere) and I genuinely cannot identify any mistakes in my own gameplay, that is where the frustration arises, because it feels the balance gap is too wide to overcome, and I certainly don't want to resort to just using those same dominant list archetypes.

Regardless, you are yet to explain to any satisfactory degree why you felt the need to jump into this topic with such an inflamnmatory, ridiculous statement, nor have you yet excused it with your follow-up remarks since they are all in the exact same tone - a tone that suggests your approach is the superior one, and that it's so self evident you feel the need to talk to me as if I am a child.

I'll say again: balance benefits everyone , and there should be no stigma attached to striving for it.

On 6/17/2017 at 6:29 AM, clanofwolves said:

Yes FFG deserves all the sh** storm we can muster about the Jumpmaster Expansion, that I think we all can agree wholeheartedly on.

They MUST be planning an actual nerf, must be, for they are not stupid; they want to continue the money making game. It's happening soon, btw.

However, the new "Guns for Hire" Aces Expansion and this Bomber are fine by me, for they'll be fun and they're not Jumps and Attani. Yay!!

I'm hopeful to see a JM5K nerf in the near future that actually fixes the problem with it. It simply has too many tools in its kit, and it doesn't have enough weaknesses to compensate.

Nerfing it would mean either knocking an icon off it's upgrade bar, its action bar, or adjusting the price of each pilot. Or maybe knocking a point of agility off the ship.

Any of those options would be something FFG is loath to do, so I understand why they're resistant to the idea.

I totally agree with you about Guns for Hire, and the H-Wing. They bring some interesting tools to the game, and I can't wait to get them on the table.

10 hours ago, Thormind said:

Out of the 3 ships previewed so far there is 1 absolute clear winner: the Scurrg. I just dont understand how FFG can't see the problems that xpac is going to bring to the game or worsen the existing ones. Can you imagine a ship with a TLT droping a bomb every turn before moving?? What are the negatives for all the positives this ship gets? There is no drawback at all. The dial is good, the point cost is good, the pilot ability is good, the abailable upgrades are amazing.

Did scums really need another ship thats clearly superior to any equivalent from the other 2 factions? Did scums really need a way to add (and boost) bombs on every god darn ship with a crew slot??? Whats causing prolems to the Imperial faction at the moment: Bombs. Why make them unlimited? Why give that option to Sabine??

The scums have been dominating the meta for how many years now?? Can we have a break?

No draw back? How about cost relative to defenses? You add a bomb kit and a TLT you're looking at mid to high 40s depending on what extras you decide to bring along. That's half your list in ship that's A. Not an arc dodger, B. Has little to no damage mitigation with only a single agility and a limited ability, and C. Is only dealing 2-3 damage on average under ideal conditions. But hey, if you think it's broken please show us a list and give as an example of how this things "scum op" because despite how obvious you think it is a lot of us just aren't seeing how this thing changes the current lineup in anyway besides giving Scum/Rebels(and even Imps with the upgrades) a new option.

Any list built with firepower in mind will wreck this thing, you're better off keeping it cheap as it's rarely a good idea to invest half your points in a ship that will easily die in the first 2-3 turns when it's the main focus.

The whining in this thread is kind of pathetic. Because they messed up and made the JM5K too powerful we gotta have nothing but crappy gimmick ships like the Quadjumper? Grow up. This thing does absolutely nothing to further the use of either the JM5K or Mindlink, and in of its self is no more broken than the current K-wings people are use to fighting anyway.

Also I'll admit that the Scurrg may be more interesting but it's not like the other two ships were complete duds, not to mention that the upgrades and Rebel Nym gives everyone some new interesting options.

On 18/06/2017 at 8:03 PM, Fuzzywookie said:

The Empire can't have nice things.

Kind of the entire point of the Star Wars franchise, really...

17 hours ago, Thormind said:

Can you imagine a ship with a TLT droping a bomb every turn before moving??

Yes, yes I can. If it's dropping a bomb behind it every turn before moving, then it's not dropping a Conner Net or Cluster Mines after moving, which is much more effective and much more problematic, see Doni, Miranda for details.

13 hours ago, Smutpedler said:

Liked for the term scissor drunk.

I remember a stand-up sketch (I believe Eddie Izzard) where he was discussing the fact that when stating how drunk you were, you can use pretty much any word, and it still sounds right: "I was totally [insert word here]" - "Totally scissored" sounds relatively normal compared to some suggestions....

I think my main thought is that given its stats, the Scurrg can do a fairly decent impression of a T-70, but has turret and ordnance options too. I'm not saying it's the second coming of the apocalypse, but it should be a fairly nasty ship even if you just want to use it as a heavy fighter - assuming the Lok Revenant is 26 points (with the PS1 genetic at 24 and the PS6 elite at 28 that seems a fair guess) you can pack three with K4 security droids and synched turrets, for example, and fit three in a squad. That's actually a pretty unpleasant thought to joust against.

I just don't understand why the devs don't slow down ever so slightly. The power curve took a hefty bend upward this wave.
Granted, the Havoc title swaps an upgrade slot, but in otherwise, this ship has everything available to it but Missile - with a 3-dice primary. And of course it can take TLT...

I've grown tired of being negative here, but I'll still say this expansion doesn't jive with me. Have fun with all of those bombs and the continued dominance of Scum. But hey, Imperials got TLT - that's awesome! No arc to worry about, six red dice... what a rush.

21 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I just don't understand why the devs don't slow down ever so slightly. The power curve took a hefty bend upward this wave.
Granted, the Havoc title swaps an upgrade slot, but in otherwise, this ship has everything available to it but Missile - with a 3-dice primary. And of course it can take TLT...

I've grown tired of being negative here, but I'll still say this expansion doesn't jive with me. Have fun with all of those bombs and the continued dominance of Scum. But hey, Imperials got TLT - that's awesome! No arc to worry about, six red dice... what a rush.

It did take a hefty curve, but in a new way, this time bombs were given a massive boost (imperials with TLT=meh but a necessary evil at this point). Other than Miranda (and possibly the illicit slam upgrade), bombing requires a higher level of skill unlike TLT spam. If the meta turns to bombing then Heck im down for it. It'll be a good shake up if it does occur, so many traditional lists will need to change...

50 minutes ago, Quadjumper King said:

It did take a hefty curve, but in a new way, this time bombs were given a massive boost (imperials with TLT=meh but a necessary evil at this point). Other than Miranda (and possibly the illicit slam upgrade), bombing requires a higher level of skill unlike TLT spam. If the meta turns to bombing then Heck im down for it. It'll be a good shake up if it does occur, so many traditional lists will need to change...

I only take issue with your claim that bombs (continue?) to take skill.

You can now drop all of your bombs during setup OR drop a bomb every turn. OR both.
Sabine and Cad make the damage automatic.

Not trying to pick a fight with everyone who thinks this game is beyond reproach and there's little to worry abouti, just saying... You're wrong.

9 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I only take issue with your claim that bombs (continue?) to take skill.

You can now drop all of your bombs during setup OR drop a bomb every turn. OR both.
Sabine and Cad make the damage automatic.

Not trying to pick a fight with everyone who thinks this game is beyond reproach and there's little to worry abouti, just saying... You're wrong.

Have you visualized the minefield thing? It is bloody useless, strictly inferior to dropping them on top of fools directly. This upgrade won't alter the way mines are used.

Now dropping mines isn't easy, especially without access to A-SLAM. It is about as hard as higher PS arcdodging. You need to be at you a-game with visualization. Bombs are weirder, they are incredibly hard to hit with lower PS and all but guaranteed hits with higher PS. Of course manouvering into positions where the bomb drops matter still requires outplaying your opponent, but that happens a few turns ahead.

5 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Have you visualized the minefield thing? It is bloody useless, strictly inferior to dropping them on top of fools directly. This upgrade won't alter the way mines are used.

Now dropping mines isn't easy, especially without access to A-SLAM. It is about as hard as higher PS arcdodging. You need to be at you a-game with visualization. Bombs are weirder, they are incredibly hard to hit with lower PS and all but guaranteed hits with higher PS. Of course manouvering into positions where the bomb drops matter still requires outplaying your opponent, but that happens a few turns ahead.

I didn't say Minefield Mapper would be effective, I just said it doesn't take skill. So in that, we agree. And while you can't spam it, Bomblet Dropper also requires no skill. Doing more than a 1-straight? Auto-drop.

High PS ships (Nym and Doni) hardly have a difficult time dropping action bombs, but I agree, it's not "mindless" - there's Mindlink for that.

52 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I didn't say Minefield Mapper would be effective, I just said it doesn't take skill. So in that, we agree. And while you can't spam it, Bomblet Dropper also requires no skill. Doing more than a 1-straight? Auto-drop.

High PS ships (Nym and Doni) hardly have a difficult time dropping action bombs, but I agree, it's not "mindless" - there's Mindlink for that.

Right, stripping the cost of opportunity from bomb use does make it a lot easier. But the act of maneuvering in a way that makes them matter still is a process that takes several turns of planning ahead.

I differentiate action and reveal bombs as mines and bombs to make my posts shorter, I believe that was a bit confusing in my first reply. Nym will have a hard time hitting action bombs (he will have Bomblet Generator glued to his backside because of that), Miranda can only do it so well because of A-SLAM.

13 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

And they only complain because they care enough to want the game to be more balanced, so that players at all levels can more easily enjoy the game by playing with what they like (rather than what's at the top of the meta) and still have a roughly equal chance.

Funnily enough, I have backed off from the game recently, eschewing the C-ROC, planning to avoid Wave 11 and not attending tournaments, but I still care enough about it to have an opinion and to voice that opinion and I'd much rather the game improved than give up on it, because I still play it.

Yours is an attitude all too common with GW's games, where even a shred of competition is looked down upon as if playing that way is somehow 'wrong', and the 'right' way is to ignore any problems and to tell anyone who suggests otherwise to 'go away' or 'stop playing', which is hardly the attitude any community should foster if it intends to expand. A forum like this one is not just an echo chamber for everyone to go 'everything is awesome and fun!', and inevitably there will be concerns voiced over balance - pretending those are somehow a problem in of themselves is deeply misguided.

The current volume of such threads, which I'd agree is excessive, is FFG's own fault for suddenly and without warning releasing 'hard' errata to cards in a fashion they hadn't before, opening up the floodgates for suggestions of more of the same, leading us to the deluge we now have where it becomes increasingly difficult to sort the genuinely good ideas from the idiotic rubbish so common on the internet.

I also find it incredible that you believe you know my X-Wing situation and, once again, talk down to me as if I don't know how to respond to what I see as the state of the game. I'm not 'losing my mind', either - all I've done is explain what I see as the problems and express disappointment, not anger, at Wave 11 seemingly not making much effort to resolve them.

Games are meant to be fun, but fun is a very subjective term, and what it means for you is not necessarily equivalent to what it means for someone else. For me personally, I like any game I play to have enough balance that 'viable' options are not so narrow as they currently are in X-Wing. I've always stayed away from the most common 'netlists', but when I lose to even elements of those lists (Fenn Rau is a good example since he is bloody everywhere) and I genuinely cannot identify any mistakes in my own gameplay, that is where the frustration arises, because it feels the balance gap is too wide to overcome, and I certainly don't want to resort to just using those same dominant list archetypes.

Regardless, you are yet to explain to any satisfactory degree why you felt the need to jump into this topic with such an inflamnmatory, ridiculous statement, nor have you yet excused it with your follow-up remarks since they are all in the exact same tone - a tone that suggests your approach is the superior one, and that it's so self evident you feel the need to talk to me as if I am a child.

I'll say again: balance benefits everyone , and there should be no stigma attached to striving for it.

Speaking of judging people without knowing them: I play both competitive and casual X-wing. I don't believe there's a "superior" way to play, but there are ways to play where you won't be running across the same ole same old every time (leaving out those poor unfortunate people who only have venues to play at that are competitive). If that's your gripe, then it's on you for not stepping out of your self made rut.

And I did offer my advice: step away from the game. Not forever, just enough to take a breath and analyze things.

Your idea of growing a game also doesn't really work. Negative players don't grow games. Sitting down across from someone who immediately gets upset about your build isn't inviting. But I will agree that a lack of balance certainly doesn't help, but that ignores the obvious that game design, especially as comprehensive as X-wing is, is not a perfect science. And it's been that way since Wave 1, which was my original point.

This isn't new to X-wing or any other game for that matter. But the only types of players consistently barking at the moon are competitive players as if it's going to help anything. FFG monitors championships (obviously). They see the issues, they'll do their best to address them.

Oh, and I don't touch anything by GW. If I look down from my high horse on anything, it's those games and ALL their players

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Yes, yes I can. If it's dropping a bomb behind it every turn before moving, then it's not dropping a Conner Net or Cluster Mines after moving, which is much more effective and much more problematic, see Doni, Miranda for details.

It can still chose Corner or Cluster you know. But thats much more expansive. Look at this:

Thats a hell of a ship for 33pts! I would say it's going to be the best ordnance ship per point invested in the entire game... and it's scum again. With that you still have place for 2-3 good partners.

Of course Miranda is going to be better if you gear her for 40+ pts...

6 minutes ago, Thormind said:

It can still chose Corner or Cluster you know. But thats much more expansive. Look at this:

Karthakk Pirate — Scurrg H-6 Bomber	24
Twin Laser Turret	6
Bomblet Generator	3
Ship Total: 33

Thats a hell of a ship for 33pts! I would say it's going to be the best ordnance ship per point invested in the entire game ... and it's scum again. With that you still have place for 2-3 good partners.

Of course Miranda is going to be better if you gear her for 40+ pts...

the above SCURGG build really isn't that good. It's a ps 1 drop on reveal which is very easy to predict/outmaneuver and ps kill

as a TLT carrier it is sorely lacking because the Y does a better job for FAR cheaper.

In a closer parallel, you don't see many wardens sporting TLTs because they're focused on A-SLAMING ACTION: bombs that leverage their low ps to overlap bombs (or liter them right in front of the movement pegs) before the enemy even activates

10 hours ago, BomberGob said:

No draw back? How about cost relative to defenses? You add a bomb kit and a TLT you're looking at mid to high 40s depending on what extras you decide to bring along.

Cost to defense??

You are looking at a 33 pts small ship with a defense thats close to a large ship and really good offense. The bomblet protect the ship against the one weakness of TLTs: range 1 attacks. You can add Bane or Bombardier as a crew and still have many points left for partners.

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

the above SCURGG build really isn't that good. It's a ps 1 drop on reveal which is very easy to predict/outmaneuver and ps kill

as a TLT carrier it is sorely lacking because the Y does a better job for cheaper. You don't see many wardens sporting TLTs because they're focused on A-SLAMING ACTION: bombs that leverage their low ps to overlap bombs (or liter them right in front of the movement pegs) before the enemy even activates

Funny you show a JMK because they have now been upgraded (again) to carry boosted bombs (Bane). It was really needed :-)

On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 7:11 AM, Sekac said:

*Edit* totally meant to say " actually drunk" not "scissor drunk" but scissor drunk is, will be, and always should have been a thing. So I'm keeping it. You win this round, autocorrect.

Scissor Drunk: when someone beligerently refuses to try or understand rock while screeching about its vast overpoweredness, maintaining a hardline that paper is completely fair, balanced, and well designed.