49 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

IMHO, Lightweight Frame doesn't do enough. It's auto-include on Imp Tier 1 and Tier 2 ships (SF and Striker). With the red-dice creep, rolling 3 greens MAX isn't enough.
The reason Quickdraw does so well (besides the title and PS) is that he wants to get hit, so LWF isn't so bad. The others melt too fast to the barrage of TLT (Rebels) and munitions/5-dice attacks (Scum)

Quickdraw doesn't WANT to get hit. He just gets to punish people when he does. He absolutely is better off evading all damage if possible as opposed to taking a shield and getting a free shot.

3 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

I think that really is it. 3 Aces or 2 Aces support, and even if there is a long list of aces in those slots, they all end up feeling like the same game.

Tie/SFs are good and can be different enough. What else do you have? Swarm is still mostly dead, bombers aren't good enough, punishers aren't good enough; shuttle, FS, and basic ties have had no update; and the Adv. and interceptor update wasn't good enough.

The interceptor update wasn't enough? Soontir was a monster for a LONG time until auto-damage (mostly sabine + advanced slam, assaj didn't help) killed him off. The interceptor fix was fine, the game has just moved on to where the interceptors aren't as good right now. The TIE Advanced fix was also great (for vader at least) for all of like a week. If they hadn't released TLT right after it probably would have been fine. Sadly, they did...

2 fixes that make 2/19 playable, only because they have 2 of the best abilities in the game, do not create a fix. Those 2 pilots would see play on any ship at PS 9 and an EPT. Vader probably doesn't even need an EPT.

7 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

2 fixes that make 2/19 playable, only because they have 2 of the best abilities in the game, do not create a fix. Those 2 pilots would see play on any ship at PS 9 and an EPT. Vader probably doesn't even need an EPT.

Turr Phennir also saw play for a while

14 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Quickdraw doesn't WANT to get hit. He just gets to punish people when he does. He absolutely is better off evading all damage if possible as opposed to taking a shield and getting a free shot.

Not at the rate the power curve is accelerating and Rebels are getting meat shields - kill or be killed.

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Turr Phennir also saw play for a while

He was a third in original 3 Aces before Jax. That's kinda the point though: all the empire has had forever is super action efficient arc dodging Aces. All three of the pilots you mention and the 1 I just added do 1 thing- dominate actions. Now Scum does that better on a better chassis. Rebels do it just as well too just a little jankier.

22 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Not at the rate the power curve is accelerating and Rebels are getting meat shields - kill or be killed.

I've been playing Quickdraw for months. If he's being shot at, it's absolutely better to avoid all damage than it is to take a shield and get a revenge shot. Because it means you're still taking your normal shot (and theoretically doing damage), while your opponent is "wasting" their shots doing no damage to you.

It's part of the reason quickdraw took so long to take off as a real competitive pilot. When he was first spoiled/released, everyone was trying to put together janky self-damaging builds to be able to shoot in the activation phase, which is...not actually a good idea. You're far better off with a more defensive build and just taking his revenge shots when the come naturally from being shot.

19 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

He was a third in original 3 Aces before Jax. That's kinda the point though: all the empire has had forever is super action efficient arc dodging Aces. All three of the pilots you mention and the 1 I just added do 1 thing- dominate actions. Now Scum does that better on a better chassis. Rebels do it just as well too just a little jankier.

Scum has action efficiency, but they aren't super efficient arc dodging aces like empire had. Fenn is actually LESS action efficient than soontir (since soontir gets 2 actions + a free focus, while fenn gets a free focus + his normal action. He MIGHT get an extra focus if you have manaroo in the list and at range 1, but that's less common nowadays), and he's a worse arc-dodger since he only gets 1 repositioning move with mind link instead of 2. Where he's better is that he has an extra health, he gets a focus even if he's blocked, and his ability/title at range 1.

Same applies to old trench, who's ability can also be worse than carnor. Carnor's 1 PS higher and stops all tokens at range 1, either not getting to take it in the first place or not being able to spend it, while teroch only strips tokens from 1 ship, and only in arc, so it doesn't help against turrets if out of arc.

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Scum has action efficiency, but they aren't super efficient arc dodging aces like empire had. Fenn is actually LESS action efficient than soontir (since soontir gets 2 actions + a free focus, while fenn gets a free focus + his normal action. He MIGHT get an extra focus if you have manaroo in the list and at range 1, but that's less common nowadays), and he's a worse arc-dodger since he only gets 1 repositioning move with mind link instead of 2. Where he's better is that he has an extra health, he gets a focus even if he's blocked, and his ability/title at range 1.

Same applies to old trench, who's ability can also be worse than carnor. Carnor's 1 PS higher and stops all tokens at range 1, either not getting to take it in the first place or not being able to spend it, while teroch only strips tokens from 1 ship, and only in arc, so it doesn't help against turrets if out of arc.

You forgot to really push hard the real difference besides free focus, and that the difference IS nuts!! Finn has an auto-hull upgrade card and unlimited Proton Rockets at ZERO cost.

Everyone always forgets that pilots like Turr and Valen are solid defensive ships.

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

You forgot to add that Finn has an auto-hull upgrade card and unlimited Proton Rockets at ZERO cost.

I literally pointed those out in the last sentence of the first paragraph.

Quote

Where he's better is that he has an extra health, he gets a focus even if he's blocked, and his ability/title at range 1.

Just now, Celestial Lizards said:

Everyone always forgets that pilots like Turr and Valen are solid defensive ships.

Love them!

If only they had been designed by the FFG crew that designs Scum ships, boy they'd be great!

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

Love them!

If only they had been designed by the FFG crew that designs Scum ships, boy they'd be great!

Not necessarily. That same crew gave us the scyk, star viper and kihraxz. And the quad jumper, which is probably better than the previous 3, but definitely worse than other ships they've gotten.

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Love them!

If only they had been designed by the FFG crew that designs Scum ships, boy they'd be great!

or just the imp vets comittee

don't know who in their right mind decided that the baron of the empire should be 3 points over the test pilot

@VanderLegion , yeah, you did sir, true. But you way, way undersold them.....in my estimation. That difference is why you see them everywhere and Soontir is all but retired. And that my friend, sucks for the game, and sucks for all of us who play it. Arguably he, and perhaps Vader, the greatest pilots in the Star Wars expanded universe cannot be competitive in a space fighter combat game....let that amazing fact sink in.

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

don't know who in their right mind decided that the baron of the empire should be 3 points over the test pilot

Thinking they didn't want 5 with Title and Autothrusters running around.. Or Crackshot and Autothrusters.

1 minute ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Thinking they didn't want 5 with Title and Autothrusters running around.. Or Crackshot and Autothrusters.

but they wanted deadeye r4 aggro torp scouts with free chips

did the same thing with the poor blacksquad scout Striker too, and I honestly don't think either would've been even remotely overpowered

There definitely seems to be some cost fudging on some ships to prevent them running on 5+ with certain upgrades, See TIE Strikers and even Protectorate Fighters.

1 minute ago, UnitOmega said:

There definitely seems to be some cost fudging on some ships to prevent them running on 5+ with certain upgrades, See TIE Strikers and even Protectorate Fighters.

hell, even the poor rookie pilot was denied that

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

@VanderLegion , yeah, you did sir, true. But you way, way undersold them.....in my estimation. That difference is why you see them everywhere and Soontir is all but retired. And that my friend, sucks for the game, and sucks for all of us who play it. Arguably he, and perhaps Vader, the greatest pilots in the Star Wars expanded universe cannot be competitive in a space fighter combat game....let that amazing fact sink in.

They aren't the only reasons Fenn sees play and Soontir doesn't. The extra hull definitely makes a difference, but so does mind link. If soontir could get tokens even when blocked or stressed he might see more play too. The infinite prockets help as well, but fenn gets the boosted offense at the cost of worse defense. Fenn is easier to hit than soontir ever was. Soontir at range 2 can tank up and have a much better chance of avoiding damage. And he's better off at range 3 as well since he can actually evade. Even at range 1 (defensively), he can evade (as long as he wasn't blocked) and be just as well off in arc if he's taking single shot, and is better off against turrets. The reason soontir died isn't because fenn came out, it's because bombs kill him (one place the extra hull on fenn can help). As well as other auto damage sources that have shown up (like slicer tools).

2 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

There definitely seems to be some cost fudging on some ships to prevent them running on 5+ with certain upgrades, See TIE Strikers and even Protectorate Fighters.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

hell, even the poor rookie pilot was denied that

Yup. It's the reason a lot of generics don't see play, because they make them too expensive to avoid potentially "overpowered" combos.

Edit: I'm all for avoiding overpowered generics, but don't think any of the above would be OP right now if they were point cheaper

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

hell, even the poor rookie pilot was denied that

The original example, yeah. But I wanted to point out modern examples (including 1 of a Scum ship) because that is a trend which has stayed ongoing for the game.

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Not necessarily. That same crew gave us the scyk, star viper and kihraxz. And the quad jumper, which is probably better than the previous 3, but definitely worse than other ships they've gotten.

They were quietly replaced by cybernetic copies when the Jumpmaster design was hatched; those designers should be tapped for Imperial design corrections and expansions. ?

4 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

They were quietly replaced by cybernetic copies when the Jumpmaster design was hatched; those designers should be tapped for Imperial design corrections and expansions. ?

Hypocrisy laid bare.

29 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

but they wanted deadeye r4 aggro torp scouts with free chips

did the same thing with the poor blacksquad scout Striker too, and I honestly don't think either would've been even remotely overpowered

yo, I am literally the last person on this forum needing reminding of how broken Scum is...

Um, I hope you're wrong (because I was ready to pre-order 5), but then again, I've never played it out... Maybe I will the next casual game I play?

43 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

They aren't the only reasons Fenn sees play and Soontir doesn't. The extra hull definitely makes a difference, but so does mind link. If soontir could get tokens even when blocked or stressed he might see more play too. The infinite prockets help as well, but fenn gets the boosted offense at the cost of worse defense. Fenn is easier to hit than soontir ever was. Soontir at range 2 can tank up and have a much better chance of avoiding damage. And he's better off at range 3 as well since he can actually evade. Even at range 1 (defensively), he can evade (as long as he wasn't blocked) and be just as well off in arc if he's taking single shot, and is better off against turrets. The reason soontir died isn't because fenn came out, it's because bombs kill him (one place the extra hull on fenn can help). As well as other auto damage sources that have shown up (like slicer tools).

Soontir you can block and hit him. Fenn you gotta block him at Range 2 and pray to God his greens crap out cuz he still has a **** Focus token. Fenn may technically be easier to kill, but in reality he isn't. That extra Hull, Mindlink, his ability, and the title are all very good defensively, oh and he comes 3 points cheaper than Soontir and has his entire dial open so he's less predictable.