54 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

... ain't gonna make @clanofwolves point less true. Imperials are getting **** lately and it's all because Fel ran weekly game nights for what, a year or two?

even if we assume that this premise is true, it doesn't make the SCURGG anything more than a decent (at best) platform given how it stacks against the currently existing "good" ships (not counting how pilot abilities play into things, because they dramatically alter the ship's playstyle and effectiveness)

don't see any imps getting ****** in SC season, though. They're doing quite well for themselves, even if jm5ks continue to be stupid

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

I haven't an issue with the 3 dice primary, it's the turret that I have issue with. I don't think any bomber should have one unless it had a points restriction on what turrets it could take or it looses it's torpedo slots....something; it's way to flexible. Honestly, I think from a game design perspective, being able to bomb and TLT from the same platform is absolutely nuts. And, let's be honest, stack that with Advanced Slam and Regen and well, though that's another discussion altogether, it's stupid.

I'm not entirely sure the scurrg will always be taking TLT anyway. I've been fying nym and sol with autoblasters (mainly to save points because even with autoblasters instead of tlt they're already hellaciously expensive for ships with no regen and no defensive upgrades). And if you lose the torpedo, you now can't have extra munitions and go back to failing as a bomber (outside of bomblet generator)

3 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Exactly.

I do take issue with the fact that every ship needs a 3-dice primary now, but since this thing will ultimately be using its turret and bomb upgrades for attack so it hardly needs a stand-alone attack value.
There's also the issue of relative stats. This thing has 5 hull and 5 shields. You know what has less total hit points than that? The U-Wing (a large-base ships) and every other small-based Rebel ship . Clearly FFG regrets the power creep and is choosing to exacerbate the problem by making all future ships massive. How the **** did this thing stay small base and get that much health? Seriously?

Turret slot is a big difference from a PWT, since you have to, ya know, actually pay for the turret. As for the health, as already pointed out the thing is basically a large base ship on a small base. And why SHOULDN'T a new ship be able to come out with more health than an existing ship? By that argument the k-wing shouldn't exist (or shouldn't have 9 hp), ditto the arc 170. Again as already pointed out,t he thing has 1 agility, no regen, and likely no defensive upgrades (maybe 3po for rebel nym?), so if you shoot at it, it's going to die.

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

The Scurrg is overall pretty average. What IS good is Bomblet Generator , and the extra unique synergies allowed from EPT/System/Droid etc with the Havoc title.

Like the Starviper with Vizago I've not seen any generic Scurrg builds that worry me, but I've seen some very cool ~50pt Captain Nym builds which play with those potential synergies.

StarViper with Vizago? Think you're thinking of another ship since the viper has no crew slot...

Bomblet generator is indeed good (especially with genius on scum nym), though personally I've only been running a 39 point nym instead of ~50. Half your list on a ship that can die in a round or 2 of shooting is a lot.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

I know Sabine add a bomb slot. But on the current Rebel rooster it almost doesnt matter. It certainly wont have the same impact has adding bombs to a JMK or a YT. Again Cad and her wont evolve in the same context which is a major factor when evaluating a card value and impact on the game. Make Sabine an Imperial instead of a rebel and absolutely no one would be talking about her. Make Cad a Rebel only instead of scum and yes, Sabine would be better. But you dont evaluate an element in itself in a Wargame or a TCG, you got to take into account the game settings as well. I havent done the maths but being able to reroll all misses is quite often has good (or really close) as doing 1dmg+dices you cant mod. The more dices you roll, the better he becomes.

I doubt we'll see cad and bombs on the YV much. On that platform you get 1 single bomb drop. We might see it on JM5Ks, but I think if we do it'll be differennt builds than we've had in the past. It gives you two really flexible bomb drops, but takes away the utility of the crew slot for other upgrades (of which scum has many, many good ones), and makes the ship more expensive if you try to slot it onto an existing build, meanning you're losing points fromt he rest of your list. As for how useful cad''s reroll is, it depends entirely on how many dice they roll and how many you reroll. On average, cad is going to result in LESS damage than sabine. A bomblet or cluster mine token makes them roll 2 dice. Average result is 1 hit/crit and one blank/focus. You make them reroll the one, and half the time it'll get a hit/crit, so you average .5 damage on a 2 die bomb. On proxy, you'll average about .75 damage. The difference is that sometimes he'll do nothing (eithe they roll all hits/crits so you reroll nothing, or any dice they reroll come up as no damage still), but sometimes they'll roll no damage ona proxy mine and he'll reroll them into 3 hits/crits. Cad is all about variance while sabine is about consistency.

Also, sabine works with ALL bombs, while cad only works with those that roll dice, so he can't give you 2 damage from a conner net, or an extra damage from seismic/thermal/etc.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

You say my arguments are weak and then you tell me that both ships are equal in term of bombing because they have the same number of bomb slots and they can use the same bombs?? If thats not what you are saying im sorry but i dont understant why you mentionned this fact... Again the use of the word "blabber" is not respectful here.

We dont know how the Scuurg will perform with bombs without SLAM because: 1- it's a totally unique bomber with aspect that were not present before. 2- It will be performing in a faction that did not have a proper bomber so no way to evaluate what kind of impact it will have.

So far in my testing I've found pretty much exactly what people are arguing. It's WAY harder to hit someone with an action drop bomb without the slam action. Nym with bomblet gneerator has been great, but the action drop bombs on sol (even with his abilitY) have been less reliable.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Yep, we are currently theory crafting so we are on the level of personnal opinions here.

Doesn't all have to be personal opinion and theorycrafting. The ship is on vassal now for people to be ablet o actually fly it.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

It still has a TLT , a better dial than other bombers, a way to boost bombs, a 3 dice primary attack, 5h/5s/1agi and many nice available upgrades. It would be far from a disaster. It would be... balanced.

Given that I was responding to the post about giving it a 2 attack primary and no ept, it...wouldn't have a 3 att primary. And the "better" dial is entirely debatable as far as "bombing" goes. It's better than the punisher (except the punisher has deathrain to drop bombs out the front), but while it's a better general dial than the k-wing, the SLAM action makes it easier for the k-wing to actually "bomb" stuff.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

The imperial had exactly 1 ship in the to 16 and none in the top 8. You really think thats balanced? The developer said the rebels underperformed a little at the 2016 World even if they had much better results. Before the nerf scums were still dominating but at least both other factions were able to compete.

I didn't say the they're completely balanced (though I still think imperial is quite well balanced within it's own faction for the most part, it just doesn't have OP crap like the other factions do atm). I said that palp wasn't nerfed into oblivion (nor was x7). Useless cards don't make the top 16 at worlds . Even if it's "only" in one list. There was no punisher there. There was no marksmanship, or expose, or even ruthlessness (which some people have tried to make work with TIE/D, but has been generally useless otherwise). If something is in the top 16 at worlds (and a fairly integral part of the build), it's not a useless card.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Imperials have not won 1 single major event (not store champs...) since the FAQ.

This would be more meaningful if there had been more major events since the FAQ. 2 of the system opens were the weekend after the FAQ dropped, and the third was shortly after. Worlds was a couple months after, but imperials were still trying to find their feet from the FAQ. And yet, again, palp still made the top 16, and quite a few defenders made day 2. And they've been doing quite well at store championships. We'll see how things go when more actual major events come along.

Also, you don't have to WIN a major event to be balanced, or even good. Whisper pre-nerf was a nightmare, but didn't win worlds.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

I think most people agree by now that they got hit way too hard by the nerf and they are in serious need of a boost. I dont know how it's reasonably possible to argue otherwise. They are in a much worst position now that the pre-FAQ rebels ever were. A few players managing to win some low priority events with a small number of participants doesnt make a faction balanced...

Imperials odn't need a boost. Scum needs nerfs (as do sabine/adv slam bombs).

So, if you follow @f0rbiddenc00kie 's formula, the Scurrg is perfectly priced. While I would say this is definitely a bit of a drift in the game's direction, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ships have had their cost fudged up before, the Punisher is probably a prime example of it - new material should try and got closer to what people "expect" the price to be. You might even argue it is slightly undercosted for it's dial (which I say is probably fairly average - it can turn around, it has a few red maneuvers, has some of the basic greens) and upgrade bar and rounded down - but at the same time the base cost is pretty high. You're already at basically 4 naked H-6s to a list - maybe a "Scurrg n' Friends" list with all the 1 point Scum crew on each of the four (which doesn't sound like it has a lot of synergy). You add TLT, the base jumps to 30 points, basically 1/3rd of the list. For a 1 AGI 10 HP ship which people hopefully can know how to burn down. I think it's very precisely costed because while a bit tanky it's an ordnance carrier first, and not necessarily armed with staying power - part of why Minefield Mapper is with it. Some people would probably run with turrets, but that's probably not it's ideal space. And nobody has fun when their bomb or missile boat gets blown up before it gets a chance to take a swing or two with munitions.

But similar to the primary, I'd personally be disappointed if it didn't have a turret effect somehow - it very clearly has the little ball turret on the model. Everybody's always up in arms TIE Strikers don't have bomb slots (because there was no way in hell FFG would figure that out in time to release it with the film), but you give the Havoc it's ball turret and people are like "Why does it need a turret?". It has a turret. It's right there.

TLT is a lot less ridiculous when you already have a viable attack. The jump from meager two dice to TLT offense is gigantic. The jump from 3 dice to TLT is great, but not necessarily worth running your ship at 40+ points when all you have is a slightly better than B-Wing profile.

17 hours ago, Thormind said:

IMO Cad is just as good as Sabine and even better because he allows any ship with a crew slot to equip bombs.

Identical stuff aside (cost, adding a bomb slot) Cad is a strictly worse version of Sabine. Sabine works on all bombs and can redirect 1 damage wherever she pleases. Cad only works on bombs that roll dice and the extra damage has to go on the same ship. Even under these conditions, Cad still has a lesser effect. Rerolling Focus and Blank results increases the average damage per die from 0.5 to 0.75. This increases average damage for Cluster Mines and Bomblets from 1 to 1.5 and for Proximity Mines from 1.5 to 2.25. In all cases below Sabine's flat 1 damage.

As the usual people again are whining about the Palp and X7 nerf in a totally unrelated thread: FFG needs to sell ships. When you only see Lambdas, Tie Int and Defenders, and Imps do not even try new SF or Strikers (immediately declared as DOA by many Imp fanboys, as they do not have 3+ greens AND at least Int dial with 2 repositions every round) then FFG has an economical problem. Now you see more creativity in Empire builds.

And the JM5K nerf which finally hits the ship itself, and not just do tons of collateral damage is hopefully coming soon.

Continously farting out bomblets makes flying support ships alongside more difficult, have not seen that mentioned.

I would expect an Imperial Bomb Officer crew coming. There is one problem though, it's called Tie Phantom.

I'd say the answer is balance, not an excuse for a revolving door of broken stuff.

thats why no matter how many editions of 40k that come out, that game is never good.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Imperials odn't need a boost. Scum needs nerfs (as do sabine/adv slam bombs).

One would equal the other :-) The nerfs you are suggesting would be a boost to the Imperials

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Doesn't all have to be personal opinion and theorycrafting. The ship is on vassal now for people to be ablet o actually fly it.

Vassal play is definitely not large scale enough to properly evaluate a ship. It's also quite different playing on the screen than playing with the real size material. At least for most people i know. And i'm pretty sure a majority of people are trying to fly/play the Scuurg like a kwing at the moment. At least that's exclusively what i've seen so far. From what i have found on Vassal, when partnered with Fenn and obstacle are placed properly, you can "direct" your opponent into Fenn range 1 web quite easily. It's also a lot harder for you opponent to get some good shots on the Scuurg at better than range 3. I'm still searching for the best 3rd partner but with 33 points left (Fenn at 34 and the Scuurg at 33) there are a lot of options to try. So far my best games have been with a scout. 2 good control and offensive ships + Fenn. I'm not sure if a 2nd scout would not be better but then again comparing a ship to the most OP element of the game at the moment is just as bad as trying to compare it to a Punisher :-)

Also we dont know for sure how much the PS3 pilot will cost but seeing the pattern i think we can safely guess it's going to be 26 pts. Add to that 1 pts for mindlink and you get a nasty 36 points ship. With Fenn costing 2 points less (replace PTL by mindlink) You have 32 points left for a partner (just 1 pts less than my current built). Thats quite enough for a really strong 3rd teammate.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Turret slot is a big difference from a PWT, since you have to, ya know, actually pay for the turret. As for the health, as already pointed out the thing is basically a large base ship on a small base. And why SHOULDN'T a new ship be able to come out with more health than an existing ship? By that argument the k-wing shouldn't exist (or shouldn't have 9 hp), ditto the arc 170. Again as already pointed out,t he thing has 1 agility, no regen, and likely no defensive upgrades (maybe 3po for rebel nym?), so if you shoot at it, it's going to die.

Its all a question of balancing everything the ship gets for the points it cost. The U wing cost exactly 1 point cheaper for 1 shield and 1 hull less. The ARC is 1 point more expansive and 1 health/shield less. The YT-1300 is 3 points more expansive to get the exact same defense. The k-wing is 1 point less for 1 hull less. I think we can all agree that 1 hull is worth more than 1 point and does make a big difference in a ships survivability. No matter how you look at it, in term of defense for point cost it's better than any comparable ships...

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm not entirely sure the scurrg will always be taking TLT anyway. I've been fying nym and sol with autoblasters (mainly to save points because even with autoblasters instead of tlt they're already hellaciously expensive for ships with no regen and no defensive upgrades). And if you lose the torpedo, you now can't have extra munitions and go back to failing as a bomber (outside of bomblet generator)

Hence why the 3 attack dice is so important even if not a PWT. It's still an amazing ship even without a turret. And IMO 3 red dices in arc is better than a 2 dice PWT. We all know how 2 dices (with no access to turret/canons) ships are effective in the current meta...

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I didn't say the they're completely balanced (though I still think imperial is quite well balanced within it's own faction for the most part, it just doesn't have OP crap like the other factions do atm). I said that palp wasn't nerfed into oblivion (nor was x7). Useless cards don't make the top 16 at worlds . Even if it's "only" in one list. There was no punisher there. There was no marksmanship, or expose, or even ruthlessness (which some people have tried to make work with TIE/D, but has been generally useless otherwise). If something is in the top 16 at worlds (and a fairly integral part of the build), it's not a useless card.

You dont take into account that the guy is an amazing player and has been using the same kind of built for years. He has become hyper specialized with it and has been doing well no matter what the meta looks like. If you look at the same type of built on Juggler, the big majority of successful ones dont use Palp. You also point out 1 top 16 (not even a top 8 or 4) and ignore the fact that it was THE ONLY imperial built to do it. A triple A-Wing + Norra built made top 8 at Hoth 2017. Does it make the A-wing a top ship?? Palp has been nerfed to a point where he went from a top 4 general ranking to at best a 24th position. He went from being a top upgrade to being in 32rd position. The best Imperial archetype went from top 4 to a 71 position. Thats a badly implemented nerf in my book.

If Imperials have adapted, like you say they did, can you explain why they keep dropping in rankings? Palp being just an ordinary card (compared to a faction defining one, thats a major drop) and defenders becoming average ships (compared to being able to compete with the OP stuff of the other factions) would not have matter that much IF the faction had other means to remain competitive. Statistics have shown now that its not the case at all.

12 hours ago, Thormind said:

Saying someone is ignorant because he doesnt share your opinions is not just condesending, it's insulting. As for the validity of my arguments, many people on this forum seem to often agree with me. The only time i saw most users disagree with me is when i said it would be nice to have the Vong in Xwing :-)

Why do i think the 2 ships are OP:

- For 39 points you get an amazingly effective ship with Asajj+Latts. That ship has a 3 dice primary that might as well be a PWT. It applies stress way too easily and create a range 1-2 bubble around itself where many other ships dont want to be. It's more survivable than most other large ships and it has an amazing dial (best of the game for large ship IMO). What are the drawbacks? Absolutely none. Only the JMK can compete with it in term of point for point value. It's impact on the meta isnt as big as the JMK but it's still major.

- Protectorate: do i need to give arguments has to why Fenn is better than any other ace in the game?? On list juggler the closest ace on the list (pilot) is whisper, in 28th position. If you count Omega Leader has an Ace (i dont) then it's him in 17th position. Fenn is in #1 position, before the Scouts, Dengar and Asajj. Do i really have to say why hes so much ahead??

I know Sabine add a bomb slot. But on the current Rebel rooster it almost doesnt matter. It certainly wont have the same impact has adding bombs to a JMK or a YT. Again Cad and her wont evolve in the same context which is a major factor when evaluating a card value and impact on the game. Make Sabine an Imperial instead of a rebel and absolutely no one would be talking about her. Make Cad a Rebel only instead of scum and yes, Sabine would be better. But you dont evaluate an element in itself in a Wargame or a TCG, you got to take into account the game settings as well. I havent done the maths but being able to reroll all misses is quite often has good (or really close) as doing 1dmg+dices you cant mod. The more dices you roll, the better he becomes.

As for Scuurg vs Punisher fair enough, ill give you that one. I did point out that both the kwing AND the punisher did not have an EPT though. For the kwing, you are still trying to compare them using the way the kwing is currently played which is, i think, a big mistake. For that part we cant really argue because it hasnt seen enough play yet. Thats what i would qualify as Theory crafting...

You say my arguments are weak and then you tell me that both ships are equal in term of bombing because they have the same number of bomb slots and they can use the same bombs?? If thats not what you are saying im sorry but i dont understant why you mentionned this fact... Again the use of the word "blabber" is not respectful here.

We dont know how the Scuurg will perform with bombs without SLAM because: 1- it's a totally unique bomber with aspect that were not present before. 2- It will be performing in a faction that did not have a proper bomber so no way to evaluate what kind of impact it will have. Yep, we are currently theory crafting so we are on the level of personnal opinions here.

Now for FFG development cycle and testing methods, just like you, i do not know what they look like. All im saying is with past and current examples we have, it's looking like they have more and more problems making products that maintain a proper game balance. For example if the changes to Palp and the defenders had been tested properly, it would not have been that hard to see what kind of impact it would have on the game. It would have made a lot more sense to then postpone the nerf until you have a way to do it without bringing down an entire faction.

It still has a TLT, a better dial than other bombers, a way to boost bombs, a 3 dice primary attack, 5h/5s/1agi and many nice available upgrades. It would be far from a disaster. It would be... balanced.

The imperial had exactly 1 ship in the to 16 and none in the top 8. You really think thats balanced? The developer said the rebels underperformed a little at the 2016 World even if they had much better results. Before the nerf scums were still dominating but at least both other factions were able to compete.

On List juggler the 1st buit with a ship that can equip Palp is in 24th position (RAC+X). But even if the built can equip him most people dont. The first one to actually be built around Palp is in 44th position. Commonwealth defenders are now in 71st position. The first overall imperial built is in 12th position. Imperials have not won 1 single major event (not store champs...) since the FAQ.

I think most people agree by now that they got hit way too hard by the nerf and they are in serious need of a boost. I dont know how it's reasonably possible to argue otherwise. They are in a much worst position now that the pre-FAQ rebels ever were. A few players managing to win some low priority events with a small number of participants doesnt make a faction balanced...

Okay first off you could be crying that Soontir Fel should have a unique title that adds 5 green/red die for 1 point an at least one or two jackoffs are gonna agree with you. Just because you have a following of sheep doesn't make your argument any better or worse, it just means you can baaah together which is exactly the case with the constant whining in off topic threads that this forum has devolved into thanks to you and your fellow herd mentality friends.

Also apparently you didn't know that Sabine added a bomb slot as you specifically mentioned it as an advantage that Cad had over Sabine, this brings into question whether you actually bother to read or study cards beyond your own preferred faction and why you would bother commenting on something you haven't even read.

Once again, we don't need to theory craft or debate on the Scurrgs bombing potential. It drops its bombs out the rear just like everyone else(except that one guy..), if bombs were difficult to use before than this ship has nothing to change that fact beyond the 2 pilots abilities that you somehow think are inferior to the generic.

Yes, Asajj is a great pilot/ship. What's your point? That it's good? No ****. If you're trying to prove it's op you gotta give examples of how it's clearly better than the other top competitive builds of the other 2 factions. For example the JM5K is Op because it has some of the best manoeuvrability via it's amazing dial, great damage via torpedoes/Dengar+Title, and good defenses by virtue of being a highly mobile PWT with a stack of tokens. The JM5K has no major weaknesses and it's cheap enough that you can often fit 2 other ships while maintaining necessary upgrades. It has basically no major flaws or weaknesses that can be exploited and is currently the only ship IMO that can boast that claim.

Compare that to the Shadowcaster that 1. Lacks meaningful damage, it's attack is about as bog standard as you can get with 3 red die and no special modifcations which becomes a real down side when you consider... 2. The cost, the cheapest generic Shadowcaster cost 33 points, that's the same price as the JM5K's most elite pilot Dengar. What this means is you're shoehorned into either running a 2 ship list or running 3 ships with barely any upgrades. This downside plays perfectly into number one, having low damage in a 2 ship list is a major weakness. 3. Middling PS, Ketsu can reach 9 but she's doesn't combo with Latts and thus isn't the premier build. The arguably best pilot fails to reach the magical number 9. 4. A mobile arc is not the same as a PWT, no matter how much you try to play it off. A PWT has no possibility for error beyond range, that's a significant advantage. Whether the enemy over shot your arc prediction or you turned it towards an enemy you thought would need the extra firepower to bring down but didn't, there are plenty of ways to lose your shot that a PWT will never need to worry about.

These are the major disadvantages that make a good ship fair. All the op ships of the past were ships that managed to remain nigh untouchable while still dishing out the pain. This is not the case with the Shadowcaster, it can choose to be defensive or offensive, but not both at once due to it being build specific.

So Fenn is the number one ace, does that automatically make him broken? Does he have effective counters in the meta? Yes? Than how is he broken? Soontir Fel was the top ace and imperial competitive ship for **** near 8 freaking waves. Was Soontir broken? Soontir for the longest time defined the meta simply by the fact that the majority of ships couldn't even touch him, can you claim the same for Fenn in the current meta? If i go back through your old post will I see you actively seeking for a Soontir nerf as voraciously as you pursue the nerf for Fenn, gods know there was a hell of a lot more supporting data for that case. I somehow doubt it, and that's the crux of it.

You don't really care about actual balance, your true motivation is obvious by your commentary. You've mentioned the nerfs that Imperials received several times despite them having little to nothing to do with the current balance of S&V. All that matters to you is your favorite faction got hit with the nerf bat and you want to take it out on the current reigning faction. Screw suggesting actually improvements for the game, let's just whine about the other guys.

I don't disregard your argument because you disagree, I disregard it because it makes no comparisons of data, you just state your opinion of how strong it is without actually developing any real comparison to support your opinion and then ignore when people like Vander or Fickle provide you actual data or side by side comparisons to demonstrate it's effectiveness in the current meta game.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

One would equal the other :-) The nerfs you are suggesting would be a boost to the Imperials

Different way of getting there though. I don't want imperials given OP crap to keep up with jumpmasters (been there, done that, got nerfed back down). I want jumpmasters/mindlink brought back down to be good but balanced instead of OP.

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Vassal play is definitely not large scale enough to properly evaluate a ship. It's also quite different playing on the screen than playing with the real size material.

Vassal is plenty large scale. From what I recall deadeye uboats showed up on vassal well before wave 8 ever actually released for instance. As for being different, it's not that different. Evaluating distance can be a bit easier/harder than playing on a table, but the strategy and the way lists fly doesn't change.

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From what i have found on Vassal, when partnered with Fenn and obstacle are placed properly, you can "direct" your opponent into Fenn range 1 web quite easily. It's also a lot harder for you opponent to get some good shots on the Scuurg at better than range 3. I'm still searching for the best 3rd partner but with 33 points left (Fenn at 34 and the Scuurg at 33) there are a lot of options to try. So far my best games have been with a scout. 2 good control and offensive ships + Fenn. I'm not sure if a 2nd scout would not be better but then again comparing a ship to the most OP element of the game at the moment is just as bad as trying to compare it to a Punisher :-)

I've been running nym and all together so far (with a vaksai marauder). Genius and bomblet on nym, sold loadout has changed every game, but some combination of proxy and/or cluster mines with cad. Both have autoblaster, tried adv sensors and accuracy corrector on Nym. So far I've only dropped mines maybe twice in 4-5 games on sol. Having them helps some with area denial, but he's mostly just shot stuff with high health. I am gonna try giving him some thermal detonators next game as well. Also planning to try dropping g sol in favor of a jumpmaster.

Nyms been fantastic so far though.

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It's all a question of balancing everything the ship gets for the points it cost. The U wing cost exactly 1 point cheaper for 1 shield and 1 hull less. The ARC is 1 point more expansive and 1 health/shield less. The YT-1300 is 3 points more expansive to get the exact same defense. The k-wing is 1 point less for 1 hull less. I think we can all agree that 1 hull is worth more than 1 point and does make a big difference in a ships survivability. No matter how you look at it, in term of defense for point cost it's better than any comparable ships...

The uwing is overcosted crap. I've almost never even seen it hit the table, much less so reliably we'll.

The arc has one less health, but has a built in rear arc and the Astro/crew combo, as well as more general abilities. It's also one of the few ships where every single pilot sees play (though thane less than the rest).

The kwing has a pwt, which costs extra. And SLAM, and is the best bombing platform in the game. We'll see how the scurrg matches up in that regard.

All 3 of the above are ALSO higher pilot skill than the base scurrg, which also costs extra.

The yt1300 is even more laughably overcosted than the uwing, so comparing to it fairly meaningless just for that reason. Get a valid cost to make the ors playable then we can compare it to the scurrg. Either way, it ALSO has a pwt.

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Hence why the 3 attack dice is so important even if not a PWT. It's still an amazing ship even without a turret. And IMO 3 red dices in arc is better than a 2 dice PWT. We all know how 2 dices (with no access to turret/canons) ships are effective in the current meta...

Yes, I agree attack 3 is important. Because the ship would be crap without it (unless you discounted it from where it is now). Costwise the 3 attack is probably similar value to a 2 attack pwt.

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You dont take into account that the guy is an amazing player and has been using the same kind of built for years. He has become hyper specialized with it and has been doing well no matter what the meta looks like. If you look at the same type of built on Juggler, the big majority of successful ones dont use Palp. You also point out 1 top 16 (not even a top 8 or 4) and ignore the fact that it was THE ONLY imperial built to do it. A triple A-Wing + Norra built made top 8 at Hoth 2017. Does it make the A-wing a top ship?? Palp has been nerfed to a point where he went from a top 4 general ranking to at best a 24th position. He went from being a top upgrade to being in 32rd position. The best Imperial archetype went from top 4 to a 71 position. Thats a badly implemented nerf in my book.

If Imperials have adapted, like you say they did, can you explain why they keep dropping in rankings? Palp being just an ordinary card (compared to a faction defining one, thats a major drop) and defenders becoming average ships (compared to being able to compete with the OP stuff of the other factions) would not have matter that much IF the faction had other means to remain competitive. Statistics have shown now that its not the case at all.

I've already pointed out plenty of times elsewhere why I don't think the system opens and worlds this year are the best indicator of where imperials actually are right now.

As for palp, part of the reason he's on the decline is because imperials have actual viable lists without him now. He's not a required OP upgrade nowadays like he used to be. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. And 24th position for upgrades still puts him ahead of hundreds of others, and he still sees play (and wins) still gonna disagree that he was nerfed into oblivion he was turned into something that takes some thought to use well and isn't a guaranteed -1 damage every single round

On the other hand, QuickDraw is the #6 pilot on meta-wing right now after the jumpmaster pilots, fenn and asajj. Backdraft is #qp, and vessery is #11.

3 hours ago, Thormind said:

Vassal play is definitely not large scale enough to properly evaluate a ship. It's also quite different playing on the screen than playing with the real size material. At least for most people i know.

Given that it's currently Store championship season (so no large 2-300 people tournaments in sight), Vassal is likely providing a larger pool of players than most people can access in RL currently.

My main take-away from playing on vassal so far is that Fenn Rau really, really doens't like my 39 point PS10 nym...

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1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

My main take-away from playing on vassal so far is that Fenn Rau really, really doens't like my 39 point PS10 nym...

Awesome news, glad to hear someone's began testing some builds and doing well.

Just wondering how many points that Fenn Rau was? Most likely the Skurrg was more expensive (I can't see how it wouldn't be....). It's all well and good to beat something worth less points by positioning yourself in a favourable confrontation but how does it do against similarly costed ships.

glad to hear your testing the Skurrg, do you think 39 points is the optimum build price or does that seem to be overloading it?

8 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Different way of getting there though. I don't want imperials given OP crap to keep up with jumpmasters (been there, done that, got nerfed back down). I want jumpmasters/mindlink brought back down to be good but balanced instead of OP.

And most people want the scums to get stuff that are equal in power lvl to what the other 2 factions get. Also Imperials dont need OP stuff, just some more unique upgrades to be on par with scums/rebels. For example they missed a great opportunity to do that by not making Intensity Imperial only. Would that have made the faction OP? Not at all. Once again the faction is the only one to not get anything unique.

8 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Vassal is plenty large scale. From what I recall deadeye uboats showed up on vassal well before wave 8 ever actually released for instance. As for being different, it's not that different. Evaluating distance can be a bit easier/harder than playing on a table, but the strategy and the way lists fly doesn't change.

How long did it take for people to find out how good the Caster was? How long to discover Paratanni? Dengaroo? How long before Sabine really made a mark on the meta? From what i see every time i log on Vassal the number of players is never really high. On top of that at least 50% of the players try builds that arent really competitive. Maybe there is something im not aware of, like alternative servers (serious question, id really like to know if there are :)?

8 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I've been running nym and all together so far (with a vaksai marauder). Genius and bomblet on nym, sold loadout has changed every game, but some combination of proxy and/or cluster mines with cad. Both have autoblaster, tried adv sensors and accuracy corrector on Nym. So far I've only dropped mines maybe twice in 4-5 games on sol. Having them helps some with area denial, but he's mostly just shot stuff with high health. I am gonna try giving him some thermal detonators next game as well. Also planning to try dropping g sol in favor of a jumpmaster.

Nyms been fantastic so far though.

Have you tried the built i talked about (generic scuurg, PTL Fenn, classic scout)? I have not tested it yet but id like to try the same built with a "cad bane" scout. Im not sure it would work because at 33pts theres not enoughe to add plasma trop with the bombs.

9 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

The uwing is overcosted crap. I've almost never even seen it hit the table, much less so reliably we'll.

The arc has one less health, but has a built in rear arc and the Astro/crew combo, as well as more general abilities. It's also one of the few ships where every single pilot sees play (though thane less than the rest).

The kwing has a pwt, which costs extra. And SLAM, and is the best bombing platform in the game. We'll see how the scurrg matches up in that regard.

All 3 of the above are ALSO higher pilot skill than the base scurrg, which also costs extra.

The yt1300 is even more laughably overcosted than the uwing, so comparing to it fairly meaningless just for that reason. Get a valid cost to make the ors playable then we can compare it to the scurrg. Either way, it ALSO has a pwt.

Yes, I agree attack 3 is important. Because the ship would be crap without it (unless you discounted it from where it is now). Costwise the 3 attack is probably similar value to a 2 attack pwt.

I was giving examples as to why the ships defense for it's cost is really good. The Scuurg also has many other advantages that are added on top of the good defense and no drawback. I see people saying its a fragile ship with crap defense. Its not. The YT is IMO the perfect example of what a balanced ship should be. Remove all the OP crap we have now and it's perfectly balanced. It still see play and it's still quite competitive. It managed top 4 at the world champ just last year. If a top 16 is an indication of balance then a top 4 is...? :-)

8 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I've already pointed out plenty of times elsewhere why I don't think the system opens and worlds this year are the best indicator of where imperials actually are right now.

As for palp, part of the reason he's on the decline is because imperials have actual viable lists without him now. He's not a required OP upgrade nowadays like he used to be. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. And 24th position for upgrades still puts him ahead of hundreds of others, and he still sees play (and wins) still gonna disagree that he was nerfed into oblivion he was turned into something that takes some thought to use well and isn't a guaranteed -1 damage every single round

On the other hand, QuickDraw is the #6 pilot on meta-wing right now after the jumpmaster pilots, fenn and asajj. Backdraft is #qp, and vessery is #11.

I dont know why you would ignore major tournaments with high number of players and the best ones participating. A lot of the best players actually help FFG test changes to the game and were aware of the last changes much earlier that everyone else. Even if you do pass the biggest events, you cant ignore the fact that Imperials have been on a major decline in overall ranking since the FAQ. 1 good ship doesnt mean they can make viable builds. The stats prove just that. Also in a three faction game, the best ship of one of them is in 6th position and you find that balanced? That same faction only has 1 ship in the top 10 and it's not a major drop? Even with 1 good ship they cant manage to make a top 10 built and they are almost balanced? The rebels were nowhere near as underpowered as the Imperials are now and many players were complaining...

I believe what bothers most of us is all the good scum ships dont really feel/look like the movies material. I did buy scum products while waiting for a fix but i would prefer to play with "classic" Star Wars ships. Also always seeing the same builds again and again is getting really boring.

10 hours ago, BomberGob said:

Okay first off you could be crying that Soontir Fel should have a unique title that adds 5 green/red die for 1 point an at least one or two jackoffs are gonna agree with you. Just because you have a following of sheep doesn't make your argument any better or worse, it just means you can baaah together which is exactly the case with the constant whining in off topic threads that this forum has devolved into thanks to you and your fellow herd mentality friends.

Just there you are saying something without any valid argument. Isnt that what you are blaming me to do (even if im actually giving solid ones to which you just disagree...)? Im not going to answer the rest of your post because your are being insulting again (herd mentally? and you say some people are childish??). I'm reporting you now, thats enough.

7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

My main take-away from playing on vassal so far is that Fenn Rau really, really doens't like my 39 point PS10 nym...

Just curious, what do you run with Nym ?

I think it'll be interesting to see which, if any, ships hit the meta from this Wave....I'm betting the Scrugg has the best shot. I request @Stay On The Leader update is cool and informative list that he did back on April 25th and see if and how it has morphed to now:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/248122-ship-rankings-from-meta-wing/

SCURGG does indeed, imo, have the best chance of the wave of making any impact on the meta

simply because it does something new ("genius" Nym in particular) FAR moreso than its not terribly inspiring statline and lack of access to significant defensive modification upgrades (contrast with Miranda and Norra)

seriously, the oh so vaunted 1 health difference is utterly insignificant next to the damage mitigation potential of those two. If you get into a late game 1v1 with Miranda/Norra against a similarly priced SCURRG, you've basically already lost the game

Rebel Nym - PTL, Advanced Sensors, Engine Upgrade, Bomblet Generator, Genius, Twin Laser Turret. Go to town.

Pre-move boost and barrel options, drop your bomb before or after your dial, explode it or dont. Your call!

7 hours ago, Rakky Wistol said:

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now that you say it, i realize i've spent way to much time writing all that :-)

btw, for all I've said, I will completely understand concerns IF AND ONLY IF that unique salvaged mech turns out to be a regen bot

but then again, that'd be dumb as all **** mostly because of the jm5k

11 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

SCURGG does indeed, imo, have the best chance of the wave of making any impact on the meta

simply because it does something new ("genius" Nym in particular) FAR moreso than its not terribly inspiring statline and lack of access to significant defensive modification upgrades (contrast with Miranda and Norra)

This is power-creep and it's lopsided and therefore breaks the game in a tactile way.

Let's break it down using another type of crayon and see how this Scrugg fits into the game, fractionally speaking:

Blue team has a crappy playing piece that's lousy at making pancakes in a game where pancakes makes your team really better.

Red team has an awesome piece that is fantastic at making pancakes in a game where pancakes can make your team win and win.

Orange team didn't really have a a piece that could make pancakes at all, but now they are slated to get a great pancake maker almost as good as Red team's pancake maker and therefore can get better and hopefully win. All-the-while, everyone knows that Red team is actually getting the same model pancake maker that Orange team is getting, possibly better even.

....so why would Blue team care at all that Orange is getting pretty much what Red team has?

I got lost in the sea of colors that was that analogy, esp since i have no idea what's supposed to be what

still doesn't address how the K will probably end up being the superior bomb platform overall, making it difficult to see the SCURGG as powercreep

as a pure combat boat, it'll basically be stomped by everything already doing well in the meta

quite honestly concerned about Sul because I don't see her ability as being comparable to even adv. SLAM and I really like running two fat as hell small ships + a third

at a first glance, I only see reliable use for the Nyms and only then in a pure bombing capacity

39 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

still doesn't address how the K will probably end up being the superior bomb platform overall, making it difficult to see the SCURGG as powercreep

quick (genuine) question: is it not powercreep giving another faction a version of miranda? even if Nym/Sol don't have Adv. Slam? While also giving Rebels another option at a ship that is clearly powercreep (courtesty of Sabine) with some questionable mechanics attached to her?

3 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

quick (genuine) question: is it not powercreep giving another faction a version of miranda? even if Nym/Sol don't have Adv. Slam? While also giving Rebels another option at a ship that is clearly powercreep (courtesty of Sabine) with some questionable mechanics attached to her?

Uhh...it aint a version of miranda

It cant regen

At all

Thats kinda a massively important distinction because of how it skyrockets her durability far beyond what the SCURGG is capable of, not even getting into the flexibility of adv. SLAM