14 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

It's a better Bomber than the Tie Bomber. But....does something have to be better than something else for it to be good? As in, I don't think the Imperials have anything else quite like the Tie Punisher....except the Tie Bomber. At this point, the Bomber is the ordnance ship and the Punisher is the bomber.

There's nothing the punisher can do that can't be done better by other factions. Both other factions now have better bombs, both have better ordinance, and now I've exhausted the options available to the punisher.

I'm not saying the sky is falling on Imperials, but the punisher being a little less bad doesn't really help us at all.

6 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes, I agree.....just indirectly stating that she probably needs a Title that does something System wise at no cost. Then, I think they'll be a great option for lists to assert space and flight control of opponents via bombs.

I will agree it still needs a missile fix. As @heychadwick pointed out, the irony is that the Punisher is now the bomber.

OTOH, I can't wait to drop a mine field in my next epic game. It can they fly around with FCS tossing 2 die attacks until it dies in flames, primary mission accomplished (for the first time in the history of the TIE Punisher).

58 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

In my mind I have always interpreted it that the token is a proxy for another card, thus, the token functions like a card in all other ways.

So, I could see how it would be tempting to interpret the card that way. However, this kind of interpretation fundamentally violates one of the golden rules: Do what the card says, not what it doesn't. Extra Munitions does not say "this token counts as another copy of that card for all game effects." It ONLY says "when a game effect tells you to discard this card, discard this token instead." Interpreting anything further than that is a path to the dark side

2 hours ago, Incard said:

I think this is a very good argument. I think this is the right approach to take in answering these questions: think like a computer program. That said I don't know if I've been convinced of either side on this particular question. The answer depends, I think, on whether there is a discreet step in the procedure for choosing the number which is the "any number." It may instead work like this:

1. Trigger Minefield Mapper after "Place Forces".

2. Pick a bomb upgrade on the ship with Minefield Mapper.

3. Discard the upgrade and place the associated tokens. (Triggering Extra Munitions as appropriate)

4. Repeat steps 2-3 any number of times until a) you decide not to b) you've discarded all bomb upgrade cards.

This would allow the extra munition bombs to be deployed at set up.

Except the "once per opportunity rule" means that you can only perform step 2 once per upgrade card. You cannot go back and pick the same upgrade card again (Extra munitions does not add another upgrade card, see above. You still picked and resolved that card, it just so happened that you were able to discard the token instead of the card itself.) Part b of step 4 should be "you're out of opportunities." This procedure is exactly the same for all other upgrades that resolve on the same trigger, discarding is irrelevant.

4 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

So, I could see how it would be tempting to interpret the card that way. However, this kind of interpretation fundamentally violates one of the golden rules: Do what the card says, not what it doesn't. Extra Munitions does not say "this token counts as another copy of that card for all game effects." It ONLY says "when a game effect tells you to discard this card, discard this token instead." Interpreting anything further than that is a path to the dark side

Mindfield mapper does say that though. I agree with your once a turn point but I see no reason you couldn't map all your tokens and keep the original card.

1 minute ago, LordFajubi said:

Mindfield mapper does say that though. I agree with your once a turn point but I see no reason you couldn't map all your tokens and keep the original card.

I think you misunderstood my point. I was not referring to the rule that you can only place one bomb per turn, Minefield Mapper clearly overrides that. I'm referring to the fact that you only get to resolve an upgrade card once per opportunity (aka once per trigger). Extra munitions does not give you extra cards to trigger, it only allows you to discard a token instead of the card when that card triggers.

So in reality you are just saying "Punishers who want to use Minefield Mapper have to pay more for the bombs the want to place". Right?

Because a Punisher with only 1 Bomb and EM can only place one Bomb. Sounds a little bit studid....

Read with attention extra munitions and minefield mapper a couple of times and everything will be clear

1 hour ago, WAC47 said:

I think you misunderstood my point. I was not referring to the rule that you can only place one bomb per turn, Minefield Mapper clearly overrides that. I'm referring to the fact that you only get to resolve an upgrade card once per opportunity (aka once per trigger). Extra munitions does not give you extra cards to trigger, it only allows you to discard a token instead of the card when that card triggers.

I don't think I was clear in my point, I know you know MM overrides the one bomb a turn rule. ? I was saying that EM just puts tokens on all bombs, therefore when MM triggers the one time what is stopping you from clearing all tokens for this purpose. Maybe I am not understanding the point you are making but it's pretty clear to me you can do that and it's the only way I see this card as worth anything as you would still have the bomb card to use as normal.

3 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

I don't think I was clear in my point, I know you know MM overrides the one bomb a turn rule. ? I was saying that EM just puts tokens on all bombs, therefore when MM triggers the one time what is stopping you from clearing all tokens for this purpose. Maybe I am not understanding the point you are making but it's pretty clear to me you can do that and it's the only way I see this card as worth anything as you would still have the bomb card to use as normal.

Haha my mistake! I may be confused still, but I think we may actually agree with each other. Yes, MM instructs you to discard the card, EM says you can discard the tokens instead and that leaves you with the bombs you can use normally.

I was saying you can't discard the EM tokens AND the bomb cards to place twice as many bombs using MM. Does that make sense?

1 minute ago, WAC47 said:

Haha my mistake! I may be confused still, but I think we may actually agree with each other. Yes, MM instructs you to discard the card, EM says you can discard the tokens instead and that leaves you with the bombs you can use normally.

I was saying you can't discard the EM tokens AND the bomb cards to place twice as many bombs using MM. Does that make sense?

We are on the same page lol

10 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

My list deploys 6 mines turn 0, your only deploys 3.

The way i read mapper and extra munitions, you can discard the munitions tokens with mapper just like the cards themselves. Still 6 bombs turn 0

Just now, Eruletho said:

The way i read mapper and extra munitions, you can discard the munitions tokens with mapper just like the cards themselves. Still 6 bombs turn 0

Some people are reading it iteratively, some people are looking at it as a single effect.

As described on the card, I feel it is a single effect. You have 1-2 bombs on your ship, they can be placed on the field, and EM means you dont lose them when you do this. Card resolved.

Others seem to feel it be interpreted as "Do I still have bombs? Keep using it!" which I feel has no precedent in this game.

27 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Some people are reading it iteratively, some people are looking at it as a single effect.

As described on the card, I feel it is a single effect. You have 1-2 bombs on your ship, they can be placed on the field, and EM means you dont lose them when you do this. Card resolved.

Others seem to feel it be interpreted as "Do I still have bombs? Keep using it!" which I feel has no precedent in this game.

It needs an errata just to stop all dispute but yeah it's pretty clear it works one and done not empty the tubes. It really is a neat but ultimately useless card imo. Now bomblet generator, that is gold. It's not an action you can do it stressed!

Adv Sensors, boost, reveal, drop bomblet, hard to port. I have never been so glad I bought 2 of these and may get a third for a full unlimited ammo team with unguided rockets.

39 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Some people are reading it iteratively, some people are looking at it as a single effect.

As described on the card, I feel it is a single effect. You have 1-2 bombs on your ship, they can be placed on the field, and EM means you dont lose them when you do this. Card resolved.

Others seem to feel it be interpreted as "Do I still have bombs? Keep using it!" which I feel has no precedent in this game.

This is how I read it, remedial long-hand for clarity (not that I'm right):

"Discard any number of your equipped bomb cards." FULL STOP.

Discard a bomb card. Hey, with EM I can use the token. Add to deploy pile.

Repeat.

Discard a bomb card. OK, this is needs to be the card. Add to deploy pile.

Repeat.

I have chosen as many as a want (or all) of my bomb options to put in the deploy pile, so now:

"Place all corresponding bomb tokens in play area." Put deploy pile (whether it is 1, 2, 3, or 4) on board.

And of course it has no precedent!! We can finally lay a mine field!!!!

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

This is how I read it, remedial long-hand for clarity (not that I'm right):

"Discard any number of your equipped bomb cards." FULL STOP.

Discard a bomb card. Hey, with EM I can use the token. Add to deploy pile.

Repeat.

Discard a bomb card. OK, this is needs to be the card. Add to deploy pile.

Repeat.

"Place all corresponding bomb tokens in play area." Put deploy pile on board.

And of course it has no precedent!! We can finally lay a mine field!!!!

What turns "Any number of bombs" into "This one bomb, twice"?

The wording "Any number of (x)" has been used in Zuckuss, as well as numberous die reroll effects. None of them let you reroll a die multiple times. Why should spending a bomb multiple times be different?

Is it just me, or does it seem completely ridiculous that the TIE Bomber only has one Bomb slot? My TIE Bombers want these newfangled, miniaturized, mass-produced iBombs so bad! I don't even care that they don't have a headphone jack!

I do think it would be hilarious to put Cade Bane on a TIE Shuttle. Too bad there's no way to get extra munitions on there too.

Just now, Kieransi said:

Is it just me, or does it seem completely ridiculous that the TIE Bomber only has one Bomb slot? My TIE Bombers want these newfangled, miniaturized, mass-produced iBombs so bad! I don't even care that they don't have a headphone jack!

I do think it would be hilarious to put Cade Bane on a TIE Shuttle. Too bad there's no way to get extra munitions on there too.

I have a feeling that the "Imperial bomb crew" will be a torpedo slot, not a crew slot, and not be unique.

So a tie bomber can get 2 bombs and extra munitions, and the tie punisher can get 3 bombs and extra munitions. Plus the effect of the "Imperial bomb not-crew"

I am in agreement, both on lack of bombs on the bombers and on Cad!

Cad could have been scum and imperial and we would see even more bombing shenanigans! Shuttles and decimators with bomblet generators for example! I imagine both would be wonderful additions. The empire would go back to doing the thing they should be able to do better than others: bombing. Well, maybe not better but at least "more often".

23 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

What turns "Any number of bombs" into "This one bomb, twice"?

The wording "Any number of (x)" has been used in Zuckuss, as well as numberous die reroll effects. None of them let you reroll a die multiple times. Why should spending a bomb multiple times be different?

Because I am reading it as "I have 2 bomb tokens and 2 bomb cards. I can convert any number of them into mines. Then I leave the rest where they are."

As for why it should be different, changing how you roll the dice changes probability. This is a deployment choice, not a "random" event.

All I can really say is that if we can interpret it different ways, it needs clarification. I will freely admit that these nit-picky timing rules are not something I delve into much. Plus, if we each have a different interpretation, there are hundreds more who don't read these boards that will get it wrong, one way or the other.

12 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Choices?!?!?! Totally overrated. Aren't we supposed to staple our upgrade cards to the pilots using them?

Staples are unsightly. Use glue.

32 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

What turns "Any number of bombs" into "This one bomb, twice"?

The wording "Any number of (x)" has been used in Zuckuss, as well as numberous die reroll effects. None of them let you reroll a die multiple times. Why should spending a bomb multiple times be different?

The core rules explicitly forbid to reroll a die more than once. If Zuckuss cannot reroll a die more than once it's not because Zuckuss' text, but because the core rules.

The text "discard any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards" directly interacts with Extra Munitions' "When you are instructed to discard an upgrade card you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead".
Extra Munitions is essentially rewriting Minifield Mapper into "discard any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards or ordnance tokens on those cards" while Extra Munitions is face up.

Having now read all 4 pages; here's my input. Minedield mapper in epic. That is all.

thats a nice c-roc. Wouldn't it be a shame if... someone... dropped cluster mines in ALL its flight paths?

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

The text "discard any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards" directly interacts with Extra Munitions' "When you are instructed to discard an upgrade card you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead ".

This is where I think your argument falls apart though. You had your shot to discard and chose to dicard the token instead . The word instead pretty much tells me and those likened in mind that spending the token is end of line.

The card and token are one thing as far as the game is concerned. You have to discard, you choose token, that card is no longer an option.

Like I said earlier I want an errata either way so there is only one way this works not assumptions.

46 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

The card and token are one thing as far as the game is concerned. You have to discard, you choose token, that card is no longer an option.

NOW I see what you are saying. I hate it and hope you are wrong, but...

Why would yo ueven want to drop all your bombs at Turn 0? I'm thinking it would be very useful to have bombs in reserve to threaten opponents with them in game.