3 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Can Laats/Assaj get multiple evades from clearing 2 stress off a single ship in 1 shot?

No, because Latts does not say "any number".
If she would say "When defending, you may remove any number of stress token from the attacker to add 1evade result to your roll", then you could remove 2 stress and add 1 evade.
If she would say "When defending, you may remove any number stress token from the attacker to add 1 evade result to your roll for each corresponding stress removed" then you could remove 2 stress and add 2 evade.

Mapping says "During Setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb Upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships."

Edit:

Quote

If I have 2 Cluster Mines equipped, with Extra Munitions, can I choose "4?" I would argue that the "any number" there has to be equal to or less than the number of bombs you have equipped. Then you can interrupt with EM to discard tokens instead of cards, but the window for choosing the number of bombs is already passed.

That's a good point though.

I like to think that if you had two cluster mine upgrades equipped and extra munitions you could drop four sets of tokens.

I know that based on wording it could be argued but thematically extra munitions is just taking more bombs or missiles so as far as I am concerned if a mate wants to proxy or if I do I would treat extra munitions as being able to drop extra bombs.

1 hour ago, Eisai said:

That then makes you ask, "How many bomb upgrade cards do I have equipped?"

Can I choose a number of bomb upgrades greater than I have equipped?

If I have 2 Cluster Mines equipped, with Extra Munitions, can I choose "4?" I would argue that the "any number" there has to be equal to or less than the number of bombs you have equipped. Then you can interrupt with EM to discard tokens instead of cards, but the window for choosing the number of bombs is already passed.

@Rakaydos

Game effects are always resolved iteratively even when more than one game effect occurs in the same timing window.
For example, Soontir could get assigned two stress tokens in one go with one effect, but it is resolved as getting one, then getting another. That is why Soontir would end with two focus tokens. (This appears in the FAQ)

Minefield Mapper specifies that you can discard any number of bomb upgrade cards to place each on the table. It doesn't limit it to 1, and it doesnt limit you to once per upgrade card.
Also, you don't discard all 4 at the same time, you discard them one by one. So what it basically says in mechanized language is " Cost : Discard an upgrade card. Effect : Place that upgrade card bomb on the table. Repeat as long as you can pay the cost."

So during the Minefield Mapper timing window, you would start discardning the first (removing the munitions token), and placing the bomb. Still in the same timing window you discard the second, this time actually flipping the bomb card face down, then the third (another munitions token on the second card), then the fourth (the second card itself).

Once you cannot keep applying the "cost" indicated in Minefield Mapper, its timing window ends, and the game goes on.

Id love to believe that the punisher is fixed, but it isnt. The havoc is just a better priced ship with a way better dial... i mean... green tallon rolls on a bomber... and epts on the aces! More health and native attack 3.

The punisher will be fixed once it receives a title. Not any earlier.

1 minute ago, MaxPower said:

Id love to believe that the punisher is fixed, but it isnt. The havoc is just a better priced ship with a way better dial... i mean... green tallon rolls on a bomber... and epts on the aces! More health and native attack 3.

The punisher will be fixed once it receives a title. Not any earlier.

The Havoc cannot equip Unhinged Astromech.

The problem with the punisher is that it doesn't live long enough to deliver its finite payload for its price.

So, how an infinite payload is going to solve that?

Instead of infinite, bomblets and rockets could be single-shot only, and the punisher still won't notice the difference.

Give the brick serious cost reductions and/or tank capabilities and we'll start talking about a 'fix'.

2 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Minefield Mapper specifies that you can discard any number of bomb upgrade cards to place each on the table. It doesn't limit it to 1, and it doesnt limit you to once per upgrade card.
Also, you don't discard all 4 at the same time, you discard them one by one. So what it basically says in mechanized language is " Cost : Discard an upgrade card. Effect : Place that upgrade card bomb on the table. Repeat as long as you can pay the cost."

That was my line of thinking, too, which I called a while-loop. You keep going, iteratively as long as you have bombs to place.
However, Eisai makes a good point: the maximum might be fixed by amount of bomb upgrade cards.

Anyway, I think it's not as clearcut and this is one of the few instances where a clarification really is necessary. Mostly it's wishful thinking, but this time I can see it going either way.

Just now, Jehan Menasis said:

The problem with the punisher is that it doesn't live long enough to deliver its finite payload for its price.

So, how an infinite payload is going to solve that?

Instead of infinite, bomblets and rockets could be single-shot only, and the punisher still won't notice the difference.

Give the brick serious cost reductions and/or tank capabilities and we'll start talking about a 'fix'.

Three ways:

1. filling him with more bang for the buck (or infinite ordnance for less points) reduces the price to make him playable
2. the mapper allows him to place his payload on the map without dying. So you can at least make sure that you used all your ordnance before dying
3. LWF keeps him alive longer. 2/6/3 is quite respectable for defense, i.e. a T70 has 2/3/3 for 1 more point... (both PS2, cutlass at 23 and blue sqd at 24)

So your problem of filling him with too much and then dying too fast has 3 solutions.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So your problem of filling him with too much and then dying too fast has 3 solutions.

Well, the problem is just dying too fast.... filled or not.

And if LWF were the solution to the punisher's survivability, we would be seeing punishers in the tables by now, right?

Just now, Jehan Menasis said:

And if LWF were the solution to the punisher's survivability, we would be seeing punishers in the tables by now, right?

No, because you need the low-cost ordnance. Otherwise he's too expensive, which is one of the two problems
Two of the three come together, the early mine drop is just a backup.

So cost reductions and better survivability would be the best punisher fixes?

12 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

So cost reductions and better survivability would be the best punisher fixes?

My point was not that these two are not correct, but that we just got them. Cost reduction does not always mean a -3pt title.

2 hours ago, Eisai said:

Can I choose a number of bomb upgrades greater than I have equipped?

If I have 2 Cluster Mines equipped, with Extra Munitions, can I choose "4?" I would argue that the "any number" there has to be equal to or less than the number of bombs you have equipped. Then you can interrupt with EM to discard tokens instead of cards, but the window for choosing the number of bombs is already passed.

I think this is a very good argument. I think this is the right approach to take in answering these questions: think like a computer program. That said I don't know if I've been convinced of either side on this particular question. The answer depends, I think, on whether there is a discreet step in the procedure for choosing the number which is the "any number." It may instead work like this:

1. Trigger Minefield Mapper after "Place Forces".

2. Pick a bomb upgrade on the ship with Minefield Mapper.

3. Discard the upgrade and place the associated tokens. (Triggering Extra Munitions as appropriate)

4. Repeat steps 2-3 any number of times until a) you decide not to b) you've discarded all bomb upgrade cards.

This would allow the extra munition bombs to be deployed at set up.

6 minutes ago, Incard said:

think like a computer program

So the question: is it

while unusedBomb = True and wishToPlaceBombs= True
or
for (i in 1:numberOfBombs)

?

2 hours ago, Eisai said:

That then makes you ask, "How many bomb upgrade cards do I have equipped?"

Can I choose a number of bomb upgrades greater than I have equipped?

If I have 2 Cluster Mines equipped, with Extra Munitions, can I choose "4?" I would argue that the "any number" there has to be equal to or less than the number of bombs you have equipped. Then you can interrupt with EM to discard tokens instead of cards, but the window for choosing the number of bombs is already passed.

But why has it passed? It has any number. EM is a replacement, but is still usable. If that was the case, you would have to stop at one card regardless. But since EM replaces the card, you can keep going. I understand where you are coming from, but right now it can indeed go either way on the subject matter. This will probably be best left to a FAQ which hopefully will hit at the same time the havoc drops.

59 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Well, the problem is just dying too fast.... filled or not.

And if LWF were the solution to the punisher's survivability, we would be seeing punishers in the tables by now, right?

IMO at 9 HP (3 of which are shields), pseudo 2 agility with LWF, and a reposition with boost action giving them anything else in terms of survivability would be too much. The biggest issues I see with them, and which really kept them out of even casual games for me, is that none of them have an EPT slot and loading them up with ordinance makes their price tag way too high. The inclusion of unguided rockets and bomblet generator with this wave fixes the later problem to an extent and actually has me considering picking up more than the one Punisher I currently own to run Deathrain + 2 Black Eights built with those 2 upgrades and LWF; maybe some cheap other upgrades for the remaining 4 points since I probably won't have any reason to go for initiative bid. Probably fun for casual but I think it will still fall short of competitive.

Unguided rockets are a just a poor man's missile. The punisher is designed to throw heavy-hitting ordnance, not a pseudo-primary attack.

Fielding a whole punisher just to fire 3-dice attacks, (modifiable only by focus!)... Is between lame and self-delusory. If you truly want 3-dice primary attacks, there are much better options in the empire's arsenal.

Bomblet generator is infinite, yes... But again, you won't launch more than 2 bomblets before exploding in a ball of fire... There goes your infinity.

Lack of action economy, lack of survivability... This ship needs much more than infinite munition to be useful.

7 hours ago, Arkanta974 said:

Do not take it personally ! I just joking people who will said in a next topic "this will break meta" or "the sky is falling again"

That the point, people who like/love punisher is happy with these news toys and have more reason to play with them !

Who would have dreamed there would ever be a 3-page thread discussing the possibilities of the TIE Punisher

11 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Unguided rockets are a just a poor man's missile. The punisher is designed to throw heavy-hitting ordnance, not a pseudo-primary attack.

Fielding a whole punisher just to fire 3-dice attacks, (modifiable only by focus!)... Is between lame and self-delusory. If you truly want 3-dice primary attacks, there are much better options in the empire's arsenal.

Bomblet generator is infinite, yes... But again, you won't launch more than 2 bomblets before exploding in a ball of fire... There goes your infinity.

Lack of action economy, lack of survivability... This ship needs much more than infinite munition to be useful.

The Tie Punisher is more about Bombs with these latest releases while the ironically named Tie Bomber is more about ordnance. If you are not going to use Unguided Rockets because you view it as some sort of pseudo-primary attack....then that's you limiting yourself an excellent tool for the Tie Punisher. The new Tie Punisher either goes with Minefield Mapper and places mines ahead of time to block off the map, or it uses Bomblet Generator to have a free Bomb every turn. The second is a cheap way to get a Bomber with a decent attack. To not use Unguided Rockets because you don't think it's right is....a limitation you put on yourself.

As for it dying in 2 turns, how the hell are you flying it? I've got a local guy who flies them all the time and wins at least as often as he loses, if not more. He plays against some of the best in the state and those that are ranked in that top 50 players list. He isn't playing scrubs. My buddy just doesn't like tournaments, which is why you don't see him at events.

I don't get the part about a lack of action economy. You don't need to have action economy on every ship to make it viable. Does it help? Of course, but is it necessary? Not really.

2 hours ago, MaxPower said:

Id love to believe that the punisher is fixed, but it isnt. The havoc is just a better priced ship with a way better dial... i mean... red tallon rolls on a bomber... and epts on the aces! More health and native attack 3.

The punisher will be fixed once it receives a title. Not any earlier.

Yeah, they are red , but still a tallon rolling bomber: yes please!

....still some a bit of salt as my beloved Lambda hasn't a Scum counterpart to give her a flip manuver upgrade as they only can ?

But yes, this Bomber IS VERY much better than the Punisher.

But if the Punisher is better now, better than what?

10 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

But if the Punisher is better now, better than what?

Better than having your Stadium Buddy rupture in your flight suit. It was about equal before.

7 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Minefield Mapper:
"During Setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped [bomb] Upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships . "

Extra Munitions:
" When you equip this card, place 1 ordnance token on each equipped [torpedo], [missile] and [bomb] Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

Cluster Mines:
" Action: Discard this card to drop 3 cluster mine tokens."

I still think Extra Munitions is going to let you place both sets of mines during the "Place Forces" step, but I hope there's official clarification at some point.

In my mind I have always interpreted it that the token is a proxy for another card, thus, the token functions like a card in all other ways.

18 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

But if the Punisher is better now, better than what?

It's a better Bomber than the Tie Bomber. But....does something have to be better than something else for it to be good? As in, I don't think the Imperials have anything else quite like the Tie Punisher....except the Tie Bomber. At this point, the Bomber is the ordnance ship and the Punisher is the bomber.

23 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

But if the Punisher is better now, better than what?

Better than it used to be, when it was overshadowed by the Tie Bomber in every way.

37 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Better than having your Stadium Buddy rupture in your flight suit. It was about equal before.

24 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

It's a better Bomber than the Tie Bomber. But....does something have to be better than something else for it to be good? As in, I don't think the Imperials have anything else quite like the Tie Punisher....except the Tie Bomber. At this point, the Bomber is the ordnance ship and the Punisher is the bomber.

19 minutes ago, JJFDVORAK said:

Better than it used to be, when it was overshadowed by the Tie Bomber in every way.

Yes, I agree.....just indirectly stating that she probably needs a Title that does something System wise at no cost akin to Sabine or Cad Bane boost. Then, I think they'll be a great option for lists to assert space and flight control of opponents via bombs.