I'm loving this upgrade, it adds a new layer of strategy (as others have mentioned) while also not piling on a ton of new rules that further complicate the game for newer players.

I just hope that it gets countered by the Minesweeper upgrade, which, coincidentally, only works on T-65 X-Wings because FFG didn't allow them to upgrade past Windows XP!

2 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Well that's nice and all, but now that your opponent can control the map, playing against the map IS playing against your opponent.

I'm fine with my opponent and me shaping the map - I love turn 0 like that. What I don't like is placing autonomous agents that then act on their own without interaction from either me or my opponent.

1 hour ago, UnitOmega said:

Terrain is key in battle. Obstacle placement and usage of the Terrain is already a part of X-Wing - Minefield Map just added a new layer. A very interesting mechanical and fluffy layer.

Your opponent is the map, and the map is with your opponent.

I absolutely agree. I LOVE the Minefield Mapper, and am absolutely looking forward to using it and flying against it. That's not what "little turrets with 1 hull" are though, unless they're restricted to shooting at range 1 or so, or have very restricted firing zones. Stuff that autonomously shoots all over the battlefield is just annoying.

6 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

What this game really needs now is X-Wing/TIE Fighter-style Mines that act like little turrets with 1 hull. Being able to set those up anywhere on the map at the start would be very interesting.

What would a 1 attack, 0 agility, 1 hull, 0 shield ship with no ability to maneuver or take actions be worth?

I've long said there should be some type of "defense satellite/mine" but it should be using normal attack values which would really make attack 1 too low.

Triple punishers with 4 clusters each. 12 clusters on the map to start. If they deploy their list in a corner you can block them in with that many cluster tokens.

1 minute ago, Rasputindarksyde said:

If they deploy their list in a corner you can block them in with that many cluster tokens.

I mean, you're not REALLY blocking them in. You're just getting a little free damage when they plow their way out. Which is still nice but...

Well yeah. Block might not have been the best word.

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 2:39 AM, DarthEnderX said:

I mean, you're not REALLY blocking them in. You're just getting a little free damage when they plow their way out. Which is still nice but...

Depends. If it's prox mines or clusters, then yes, 'breaking through' might cost you a point of damage or two.

If it's connor nets, 'breaking through' might leave you Ionized and actionless at range 1 of the enemy.....a much bigger deal.

The fact that you won't be able to put mines in the enemy's "half" makes things less overwhelming. It is, after all, a free system, so it's not going to be fantastic unless you sink a lot of points into it.

On 6/17/2017 at 1:49 PM, wurms said:

To help give some perspective on range 3 minelaying on turn 0.

vs Dash/Miranda

vs RauBoats

These pictures are super helpful in illustrating exactly why Minefield Mapper will never become a significant player in the metagame.

That reason being, there's no guarantee of it being effective. That Miranda/Dash picture in particular: where are you going to lay 6 Conner Nets down such that you can guarantee they'll hit? You can't! Even if it's FAQ'd to allow EMs... where can you put 12 such that you guarantee an overlap? You can't!

Best you can do to ensure that at least one of your 4 point bombs actually does what it's aroused to is essentially make a wall of them across the map. In which case you're endangering yourself as much as your opponent. Or, both you and your opponent are going to just stay on your own sides for 70 minutes and let final salvo run its course.

Which means random, which means it won't make the competitive scene. Maybe 6v4 in the final salvo is odds you're willing to take, in the Miranda/Dash case, but they're not impregnable odds. And if you try the same thing vs the FennBoats, then it's 6v7. How do you feel about those odds?

My prediction: it may be taken in some lists, due to being free, but it will not be used for its ability in most cases. (It can be used to close off an unfavorable avenue every once in a while, but then you're missing out on damage) Lists built around making it useful will never achieve significant effectiveness, and therefore will not see any popularity in the meta.

I don't think the point of minefield mapper is to guarantee they will hit at all. In fact you should be placing them assuming they will never hit. It will be used to restrict lanes to force the enemy into directions you want them to go, making their early movements more predictable. The smart play may end up being to just roll through the mines anyway to avoid moving where the enemy wants.

11 minutes ago, Sparklelord said:

These pictures are super helpful in illustrating exactly why Minefield Mapper will never become a significant player in the metagame.

That reason being, there's no guarantee of it being effective. That Miranda/Dash picture in particular: where are you going to lay 6 Conner Nets down such that you can guarantee they'll hit? You can't! Even if it's FAQ'd to allow EMs... where can you put 12 such that you guarantee an overlap? You can't!

Best you can do to ensure that at least one of your 4 point bombs actually does what it's aroused to is essentially make a wall of them across the map. In which case you're endangering yourself as much as your opponent. Or, both you and your opponent are going to just stay on your own sides for 70 minutes and let final salvo run its course.

Which means random, which means it won't make the competitive scene. Maybe 6v4 in the final salvo is odds you're willing to take, in the Miranda/Dash case, but they're not impregnable odds. And if you try the same thing vs the FennBoats, then it's 6v7. How do you feel about those odds?

My prediction: it may be taken in some lists, due to being free, but it will not be used for its ability in most cases. (It can be used to close off an unfavorable avenue every once in a while, but then you're missing out on damage) Lists built around making it useful will never achieve significant effectiveness, and therefore will not see any popularity in the meta.

I think it will be useful to direct the battle to the area you would prefer it to be in. Since we cannot place asteroids inside range 2 band. A single 4 point conner net/cluster mine blocking an edge, even at range 3 of them, after Dengar or Biggs has setup in a corner, changes their entire engagement. This can be crucial against Swarms as well, making them turn towards the middle on round 1. I dont think wasting 16pts on a wall of conners will ever be competitive, but a 4pt cluster mine can easily be fit in a squad, but giving up system slot for it? Not many ships can afford that. Rebel Nyms ability to prevent bomb from detonating, means they turn away from your bomb, and someone like Dash flies through it, hitting them from behind. Dont think mapper will be meta-warping, but the right list can make it work enough to be "a thing".

41 minutes ago, wurms said:

I think it will be useful to direct the battle to the area you would prefer it to be in. Since we cannot place asteroids inside range 2 band. A single 4 point conner net/cluster mine blocking an edge, even at range 3 of them, after Dengar or Biggs has setup in a corner, changes their entire engagement. This can be crucial against Swarms as well, making them turn towards the middle on round 1. I dont think wasting 16pts on a wall of conners will ever be competitive, but a 4pt cluster mine can easily be fit in a squad, but giving up system slot for it? Not many ships can afford that. Rebel Nyms ability to prevent bomb from detonating, means they turn away from your bomb, and someone like Dash flies through it, hitting them from behind. Dont think mapper will be meta-warping, but the right list can make it work enough to be "a thing".

This (first bold mark-up). It will be worth its cost if it can dislodge pre-nerf Biggs in any way or create a no-go zone for large base ships that can make the battlefield work for you in some way. I think after the Biggs nerf, it will be most useful against Dengar, JK5s, VCX, RACs, etc. I just hope swarms aren't further reduced as they are so very Star-Wars-y, but alas, it will smack them as well; collateral damage I guess. Maybe FFG has a swarm buff lined up for us one day?

This (second bold mark-up). I agree as well. We proxied the cards and ships last night just to run some scenarios. Though we're no masters, we ran it against the Meta lists. Knowing what we wanted to see and having full knowledge of the possibilities, we never activated one of the bombs, but boy did they re-direct our plans drastically. They were a real pain. I'm thinking it will raise the ire of some players to Kylo Ren crew kinda level; and believe mind-fields will have about the same effect in tournament settings....not to shabby but not OP.

On 6/17/2017 at 7:57 AM, LordFajubi said:

Dash can just bulldoze asteroids, seismic torpedoes can clear a path for anything else. I am just not seeing this as anything but a gimmick and doubt seriously tournament players will actively choose this over a jumpmaster. That being said it is a very neat card and way of thinking out of the box.

On 6/17/2017 at 2:08 PM, Keffisch said:

And to think that for 2 points you can ignore all this.

If people actually start sacrificing points on very tight lists and bringing seismics to the table, then the minefield mapper has been successful at changing the meta of the game.

blep

2 hours ago, wurms said:

I think it will be useful to direct the battle to the area you would prefer it to be in. Since we cannot place asteroids inside range 2 band. A single 4 point conner net/cluster mine blocking an edge, even at range 3 of them, after Dengar or Biggs has setup in a corner, changes their entire engagement. This can be crucial against Swarms as well, making them turn towards the middle on round 1. I dont think wasting 16pts on a wall of conners will ever be competitive, but a 4pt cluster mine can easily be fit in a squad, but giving up system slot for it? Not many ships can afford that. Rebel Nyms ability to prevent bomb from detonating, means they turn away from your bomb, and someone like Dash flies through it, hitting them from behind. Dont think mapper will be meta-warping, but the right list can make it work enough to be "a thing".

Dengar?!

You can't possibly pin Dengar along the side with just one. Not with his barrel roll.

Biggs, and other formation-fliers, are a slightly different story.

But, you know, the formation fliers can just change their setup slightly, as long as they give themselves several approach options, or sacrifice one ship to the bomb, aren't going to be much bothered.

1 hour ago, Sparklelord said:

Dengar?!

You can't possibly pin Dengar along the side with just one. Not with his barrel roll.

Biggs, and other formation-fliers, are a slightly different story.

But, you know, the formation fliers can just change their setup slightly, as long as they give themselves several approach options, or sacrifice one ship to the bomb, aren't going to be much bothered.

Its not about pinning him down. Its about bringing the fight to where you want it. Jumpmasters want room to sloop and b-roll. Create a crowded middle and bring them there.

Parattanni likes Asajj going around the outside, so she can keep her arc facing inward. Put bombs around the outside and essentially create a 2x2 map. Those 3 sharps start looking awfully difficult.

If there's a ship in the game equipped to just plough straight through bombs, it's Assaj, especially when Rebels struggle to get a lot of clusters with Mapper, so Sabine is a lot less useful for them in this capacity.

39 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

If there's a ship in the game equipped to just plough straight through bombs, it's Assaj, especially when Rebels struggle to get a lot of clusters with Mapper, so Sabine is a lot less useful for them in this capacity.

So, its a Xanatos Gambit. If you fly to avoid the mines, you fly into the corridor that I wanted to you to fly into; my plan worked. If you plow through the mine, then you take damage from my mines, just like I intended for you to do if you ignored the mines; my plan worked.

Not seeing how this is a bad thing.

If anything its putting mines to their "proper" use as area denial, which wasn't quite possible when you had to start on the opposite side of the map, race forward, and try to cut someone off or just being lazy and dropping them on someone's head.

4 hours ago, wurms said:

Its not about pinning him down. Its about bringing the fight to where you want it. Jumpmasters want room to sloop and b-roll. Create a crowded middle and bring them there.

Parattanni likes Asajj going around the outside, so she can keep her arc facing inward. Put bombs around the outside and essentially create a 2x2 map. Those 3 sharps start looking awfully difficult.

Now where have you set your ships? Presumably not in the right corner, because you'll be going straight for your own Clusters. Obviously not in the middle, either, because you'll be corralled by your own Clusters. So you're gonna favor the left side of the board. Therefore, Asajj is put in no risk of the Clusters, her move sequence will be 1F-2RB-1F-3LT and she'll have safely skirted them, and by then you're already being shot at by her because you will either take the lane between the two debris, or try for the harder route through the rocks. If you went for the left lane towards Manaroo then she'll modify that last move to be a 2 or 3 LT and now you're flanked.

Manaroo, pre-nerf, would literally just fly in a circle and be fine. But post-nerf, she'll stick closer to Fenn, who will prefer a middle lane anyways.

10 hours ago, Sparklelord said:

These pictures are super helpful in illustrating exactly why Minefield Mapper will never become a significant player in the metagame.

That reason being, there's no guarantee of it being effective. That Miranda/Dash picture in particular: where are you going to lay 6 Conner Nets down such that you can guarantee they'll hit? You can't! Even if it's FAQ'd to allow EMs... where can you put 12 such that you guarantee an overlap? You can't!

Best you can do to ensure that at least one of your 4 point bombs actually does what it's aroused to is essentially make a wall of them across the map. In which case you're endangering yourself as much as your opponent. Or, both you and your opponent are going to just stay on your own sides for 70 minutes and let final salvo run its course.

Which means random, which means it won't make the competitive scene. Maybe 6v4 in the final salvo is odds you're willing to take, in the Miranda/Dash case, but they're not impregnable odds. And if you try the same thing vs the FennBoats, then it's 6v7. How do you feel about those odds?

My prediction: it may be taken in some lists, due to being free, but it will not be used for its ability in most cases. (It can be used to close off an unfavorable avenue every once in a while, but then you're missing out on damage) Lists built around making it useful will never achieve significant effectiveness, and therefore will not see any popularity in the meta.

Obviously against dash you just drop mines (prox, clustrr, Conner net, whatever) on top of all the rocks just to screw with him

If I can make an observation - an interesting similar picture to see would be a seismic charge or proton bomb token with its range 1 bubble being used to block - Rebels have access to Nym, who can lay a proton bomb as a mine and then 'hold' it and detonate it when someone's there to be hit. Add in the fact that a bomber-heavy squad almost inevitably features Sabine, and one crit plus a point of damage makes 'fly throught and ignore it rather difficult, and unlike a mine token, much harder to avoid.

3 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Obviously against dash you just drop mines (prox, clustrr, Conner net, whatever) on top of all the rocks just to screw with him

That is just about the only way I see myself using the MM.

16 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

That is just about the only way I see myself using the MM.

Come on, surely you have a little more imagination than that

1 hour ago, Quadjumper King said:

Come on, surely you have a little more imagination than that

I do, but I just don't find the Mapper to be competitively viable.

2 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

I do, but I just don't find the Mapper to be competitively viable.

Yeah, I don't see it either. However I do think it has potential, I subscribe to the idea that any card or ship can shine if given enough time to polish it up, however foolhardy that belief may be.

The main downside of this (to me) seems to be that there are several matchups in which the ability is next to useless (you do have the option to ignore it though and save your bombs) and that a list dedicated to putting as many bombs as it can on the field before turn one is going to struggle against certain lists. I could see lists with one or two bombs to deploy or save at their discretion.

Only time will tell...