16 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Your TIE Punisher is the only ship which can run both Unguided Rockets and Bomblet Generator for Maximum unlimited ordnance. Also I think multiple copies of Minefield Mapper - but don't quote me on that.

And then you look at it's dial, compare it to this ship, and realize where it went wrong...

15 hours ago, Managarmr said:

Just checking in to see the usual whining from the usual Empire fanboys and -girls.

And here they are in force. Ignoring that there are 2 Punisher fixes in the package.

And then you forget that a Punisher with Unguided rockets is still worst than a bomber with TLT. And you also forget that Imperials are the only faction with no bomb booster. And you forget that the Punisher has no EPT. And you forget that it also has one of the worst dial in the game. Where is the fix now?

And you forget that Imperials are already out of the meta mostly because of bombs...

Just now, Thormind said:

And then you forget that a Punisher with Unguided rockets is still worst than a bomber with TLT. And you also forget that Imperials are the only faction with no bomb booster. And you forget that the Punisher has no EPT. And you forget that it also has one of the worst dial in the game. Where is the fix now?

And you forget that Imperials are already out of the meta mostly because of bombs...

+1

15 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

Jumpmasters can drop bombs now. Game over everyone.

And so can Shadowcasters.

The funiest thing is some people think Cad is worst than Sabine... An almost guaranteed to hit corner net on a Caster (or a Jump) is a nasty tool...

RE: Mine Mapper + Extra Munitions interaction

It's pointless to argue about it now because in a year, they're justgoing to rewrite the card, anyway.

(I sure hope they don't pull this garbage in Runewars, because the card-editing has really turned me off from X-Wing.)

So just a thought, but since Minefield Mapper says to place the tokens, rather than drop the bombs, does this mean I can place my cluster mine tokens spread out individually instead of the normal grouping?

Because that would drastically improve the area I can functionally threaten.

16 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Welp, Sabine is now an even bigger pain in my **** than ever, and Miranda is **** near untouchable. I'm off to clown college.

Dang. I thought you were a graduate

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

Except.....Boba Fett has you remove an upgrade card. The FAQ says you remove an Extra Munitions token. I believe that you will be able to use EM tokens to drop bombs early. Even if you argue that they had to FAQ Boba Fett to get that....I will say that they will FAQ the Mapper to do the same.

Yep, you most certainly do. The Map targets the card and the token replaces the discard.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Ok wow, just wow. Look at that dial and compare that to a Punisher or a Bomber. Where is the balance????? More move possible, faster, more green and can Talon roll. Common! And on top of that one of the main thing keeping Imperials from performing is getting an unlimited version?? But wait, there is more! They added a bomb boost to scums with Cad Bane, making the Imperial the only faction without one. And this ship can equip a TLT?? Oh and it can equip EPTs...

This ship is another Jumpmaster/ Shadowcaster / Protectorate. And then people wonder why players are getting away from the game.

Well, in canon the Scurrg is more of an assault fighter.

Tri post.

Tri post

So... say you are able to use the tokens from extra munitions? Yes. You can blanket the map in cluster mines. Okay. Say you take those three generic punishers each extra munitions, minefield mapper, and cluster mines on each slot. Sure you can put put 18 cluster mines.

Here's what happens, you put out so much ordnance that YOU have to avoid it as well. If you don't blow up the enemy, you now get to face them in with three punishers. While you avoid your own ordnance.

Seems the cost may outweigh the benefit. All the enemy has to do is place their ships in such a way that they k-turn repeatedly untill YOU fly through your mines and come to them.

It is an interesting option that indeed, makes the punisher benefit from taking copious amounts of bombs, but the idea of carpeting the whole play area is foolishly fickle at best, and likely to backfire on you.

Also, if you want to spend a stupid amount of money to do this in a tournament, go for it. You'll get to pull it off for maybe ONE round of the tournament. Insanity like that will be talked about. By everyone.

6 hours ago, shadowfriend said:

Hy there,

imho the " Minefield Mapper" is a massive problem for epic players . 6 Ships using up to 4 bombs each (bomb, bomb extra ammo) can cluster the complete side of the enemy zone so there will be no close combat until at least one ship is sacrificed to open a small corridor to fly through.

Furthermore...when both players use those setups the game may become extremely boring since everyone stays out of range when noone dares to punch through the line of bombs.

The list shown earlier (3 punishers) already IS able to do this on 100pts but I am not sure if this as devastating as it would be on epic. Might be the "Minefield Mapper" will result in a new house rule for some epic players since it COULD be breaking the whole game. I dunno if it will be really that bad but it might happen. Just imagine adding a line of conner nets directly next to the line of clusters...

Still I am a fan of the expansion since I am not playin tournaments. And I really LOVE the upgrade it brings for punishers...but yet I am also pretty worried about the "Minefield Mapper".

IMHO, this isn't going to happen, because when you are done you are left with 6 cruddy blaster sponges to try to win with. The minefield will be penetrated, then you are dead meat.

2 hours ago, jmswood said:

I know I'm al ittle late to the party, but I want to throw in two bits on the Minefield Mapper/Extra Munitions argument.

The "once per opportunity" question has been exhaustively addressed by other forum-goers, but I searched and couldn't find anyone talking about the last part of the text on Minefield Mapper: " Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond range 3 of enemy ships." (emphasis added)

It is possible "all corresponding bomb tokens" includes bomb tokens corresponding with both the Extra Munitions token and the bomb upgrade card. There is no "you may" so the effect is mandatory. Step by step it would look like this:

1. Trigger Minefield Mapper

2. Choose equipped bomb upgrades to discard.

3. Discard Extra Munitions tokens instead.

4. Deploy all bomb tokens corresponding with discarded Extra Munitions tokens.

If @Rakaydos is correct (and I personally believe he is) then the process stops here. However, it is possible the instruction to "place all corresponding bomb tokens" means tokens associated with the upgrade card, because a token is not a card. If this is true, then discarding Extra Muntions tokens does not satisfy a mandatory effect of Minefield Mapper. If this is true, then the player must continue deploying bomb tokens until the chosen upgrades are expended.

I'm not saying absolutely that this is the case. I'm just saying it is possible FFG will rule it like this incthe future. Just playing devil's advocate a moment longer: if FFG rules that "all corresponding bomb tokens" includes both token and card, then there is the interesting consequence that the player using Minefield Mapper cannot use Extra Munitions to deploy one bomb during setup, and save the other for later in the game. It's all or nothing, can't have it both ways, which would be appropriate for a 0-point card.

I personally think the "instead" clause on Extra Muntions means the mandatory effect of Minefield Mapper is satisified by discarding the token and deploying just the token's corresponding bomb tokens. I wouldn't assert my "all corresponding bomb tokens" argument to another player or official without FAQ backup.

All of this could be solved if TOKEN = CARD for game play purposes. Why is this NOT the case?

9 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

So... say you are able to use the tokens from extra munitions? Yes. You can blanket the map in cluster mines. Okay. Say you take those three generic punishers each extra munitions, minefield mapper, and cluster mines on each slot. Sure you can put put 18 cluster mines.

I'm dying inside that the lowest of the low ships in the game is now having a discussion of "triple threat" status, even if it never happens.

2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

It is ironic that the Tie Bomber is the ordnance carrier and the Tie Punisher is the Bomber.

How can you say that all these Wave 11 upgrades don't help the Tie Punisher?

• Bomblet Generator
• Minefield Mapping
• Unguided Rockets

"These upgrades do not do enough to help it" is, I believe, what most folks are arguing.

Bomblet makes the bombing punisher 2pts cheaper. Still survives only 2 rounds. Still only gets off 2 bombs. Better? Yes. Is 2pts cheaper for a similar thing at the cost of a second and more controlled/powerful option better enough? Nope.

Minefield Mapping: Garunteed bomb drops and garunteed wasted points. The strength of the action bombs is that you can drop them and garuntee damage. Are there tactical advantages? Yes, especially turn 0. Do those tactical advantages outweigh the disadvantages of 1/3 of your squad being a nearly naked punisher? Unlikely.

Unguided rockets: They are not a 3 dice attack. They are not a 3 dice attack. They are not a three dice attack. See all the other threads about them for more info. Are they better than the punisher's primary weapon attack? Yes. Better than a missile/torp shot that also requires an action? No. Cheaper? Yes. For twice the slots.

All around it's the right idea but doesn't fix the punishers' problems. It's a more expensive ship that you have to buy often overcosted upgrades for it to make it as good as cheaper ships that do similar things. If you were taking a double seismic charge punisher you now get it for cheaper If you were playing loaded Redline and somehow have points left and want some turn 0 fun you can now spend those points and do so. If you were taking 3 generic punishers with bombs and missiles you shave a few points (but are still likely better off with bombers!).

Deathrain might. Might. Might have gotten enough help. Losing connors, clusters, and prox mines hurts since you can't auto erase an ace now but having a slightly better attack vs. non Aces should allow you the same damage output but it will be spread out. The 7pt difference in old and new loadouts might be enough to matter. I'll certainly give it a go a few times.

I, like many other posters, hope I'm wrong. I hope this is enough. Casually and in epic it probably is. Is that enough? Depends on who you ask.

2 hours ago, Tbetts94 said:

Sure, it helps. But it won't fix it.

Bombs are still not effective damage wise without an Imperial Sabine/Cad Bane. Unguided Rockets are nice little buff if they still have their focus. Hot Shot CoPilot and just plain shooting at the ship should strip their focus and if they aren't using their focus you're already winning.

Now when I say bombs aren't effective damage wise, I mean they aren't on par with other bombing platforms. They would be balanced and not overpowered like the K-Wing and Scurgg is about to be with those two crew. Now if a nerf happened to those two, than that may be the fix the Punisher needed.

Something doesn't have to be on the same power level as the best to be worth taking. I think that's where you are not thinking straight. Something can still be good without being the best.

With Bomblet Generator, you can kill Fenn Rau with two lucky bombs. That's not a bad thing.

Someone would have to take Hot Shot CoPilot to strip the Focus token. So far, I haven't seen it a lot.

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Something doesn't have to be on the same power level as the best to be worth taking. I think that's where you are not thinking straight. Something can still be good without being the best.

With Bomblet Generator, you can kill Fenn Rau with two lucky bombs. That's not a bad thing.

Someone would have to take Hot Shot CoPilot to strip the Focus token. So far, I haven't seen it a lot.

But why would you not take the best? You're playing with hands behind your back. Yeah, in casual play you can play anything, hell, you could play Punishers now and have a good chance of winning in casual play. But if I want a list with Bombs, I ain't taking it.

29 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

But why would you not take the best? You're playing with hands behind your back. Yeah, in casual play you can play anything, hell, you could play Punishers now and have a good chance of winning in casual play. But if I want a list with Bombs, I ain't taking it.

Or to put it more appropriately...

This might take the Punisher from tier 4 to tier 3. Yes, it does make it okay , but why play okay when you could play good ?

*sigh* and by the looks of this ship, the ongoing obsoleting of the wave four and earlier ships continues unabated.

6 hours ago, Celez said:

Wait I'm confused: is this ship on a large or a small base? If it's a small base the dial is much better than expected!

All three ships in this wave are small.

9 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

TIE Bombers can't equip Bomblet Generator. It requires two bomb slots. Only the Punisher can as far as Imperials go.

Imperial Bombers aka the TIE Punisher. I know the TIE Bombers can't take any. They can still take the unguided rockets.

6 hours ago, Biophysical said:

It does make the generic Punisher look even more crap. 1 more attack die and a turret option for 3 points.

To be fair, every ship in the game does that . I am intrigued by the possibilities for the punisher in wave 11.

5 hours ago, DaProfezzur said:

Captain Nym (Scum) — Scurrg H-6 Bomber	30
Veteran Instincts	1
Twin Laser Turret	6
Extra Munitions	2
Homing Missiles	5
Bomblet Generator	3
Electronic Baffle	1
"Genius"	0
Guidance Chips	0
Havoc	0
Ship Total: 48
Lok R??? — Scurrg H-6 Bomber	26
Adaptability	0
Ion Cannon Turret	5
Extra Munitions	2
Concussion Missiles	4
Cad Bane	2
Proximity Mines	3
Cluster Mines	4
Conner Net	4
Guidance Chips	0
Ship Total: 50 SO MUCH DAMAGE!!!!!

On 2 ships with 1 agility and no regen. The generic will never get off 6 bombs

Bomblet Generator seems nice for the Firespray. It doesn't even need Cad, if it uses the Andraste title although he is probably too good with bomblets not to use.

4 hours ago, Thormind said:

Ok wow, just wow. Look at that dial and compare that to a Punisher or a Bomber. Where is the balance????? More move possible, faster, more green and can Talon roll.

Actually its dial is pretty comparable to a TIE bomber. Only one set of white hards, the other is red on both ships. The Havoc gains t-rolls but it doesn't have any k-turn, where the bomber has the excellent 5-k. Pretty much a wash there. It does gain a 5-straight but it's red and so I don't think will be used very often. It's greens are exactly the same except its three straight is also green. So it really is only slightly better.

Contracted Scout 25, Mindlink 1, Cad Bane 2, Rigged Cargo Chute 1, bomb of choice, Extra Munitions 2 = 35ish

I'm not sure if this is offensive because it makes the generic Jumpmaster a better bomber that most any Imperial version, or if it's because the the base Jumpmaster is already so much of an incredible control machine between blocking and Cargo Chute that the extra points for those bombs might just not be worth it anyway.

Two things.

1. Sol Sixxa with Havok & Genius: a 1-hard bomb placement and a full-forward barrel roll in the opposite direction will clear the range 1 explosion radius. Might have been mentioned, but still.

2. The base platform seems decent as a joust ship (with the caveat that jousting is kinda dead). The dial is reasonable: white hard turns, a pair of T-Rolls, non-horrid greens, and a barrel roll on top. The stat line is great: 3 attack dice with 10 hp for 24 points. Four Karthakks with Boba Fett, 4-Lom, Zuckuss, and Greedo seems like it'd be an upgrade over four T-70 or B-Wings or other similar squads. A strong version of a weak archetype.

27 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Sol Sixxa with Havok & Genius: a 1-hard bomb placement and a full-forward barrel roll in the opposite direction will clear the range 1 explosion radius. Might have been mentioned, but still.

That is very useful information. I would not have thought to try that.