On 6/17/2017 at 10:16 AM, shadowfriend said:

Hy there,

imho the " Minefield Mapper" is a massive problem for epic players. 6 Ships using up to 4 bombs each (bomb, bomb extra ammo) can cluster the complete side of the enemy zone so there will be no close combat until at least one ship is sacrificed to open a small corridor to fly through.

Furthermore...when both players use those setups the game may become extremely boring since everyone stays out of range when noone dares to punch through the line of bombs.

The list shown earlier (3 punishers) already IS able to do this on 100pts but I am not sure if this as devastating as it would be on epic. Might be the "Minefield Mapper" will result in a new house rule for some epic players since it COULD be breaking the whole game. I dunno if it will be really that bad but it might happen. Just imagine adding a line of conner nets directly next to the line of clusters...

Still I am a fan of the expansion since I am not playin tournaments. And I really LOVE the upgrade it brings for punishers...but yet I am also pretty worried about the "Minefield Mapper".

I'm preferring to agree with several other people that have mentioned the same point. The Minefield Mapper and Extra Munitions should fall into the "double jeopardy" rule (as I call it), in that you can only perform any specific interaction once per opportunity. Mapper lets you discard any number of your bomb upgrade cards to place the bombs in turn 0 (effectively), extra munitions would allow you to discard the EM tokens as this is the interaction opportunity. You couldn't then discard the actual upgrade card as well as you have had the 1 interaction. 6 ships will drop 12 bombs (per your example) but still have a further 12 bombs to use during play.

The fact that mapper currently only works with Punishers does give the Imps something to reflect on.

2 hours ago, Reiver said:

... Man, rebel Nym is way cooler than Scum Nym.

Agree 100%. Scum Nym is very useful and nifty, but he's not really opening up brand new strategies. Rebel Nym can permanently block lanes of approach, and with Minefield Mapper he can do it turn 0 for the low, low price of free. Much more interesting to me than spawning twelve costly Cluster Mine tokens no-one's gonna fly over.

8 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

I know that. But Mapping Minefield also has "May" and "any number of" in its phrase, giving it quite possibly the most clear-cut walkthrough of any Upgrade interaction:

1) Choose an equipped Bomb card with an Extra Munitions token on it.

2) Discard the token on it instead of the Upgrade card itself (as allowed by the Extra Munitions Upgrade).

3) Place the corresponding Mine token at past R3 of an enemy ship.

4) if you wish, go back to 1) and repeat, this time discarding the Upgrade Card.

It's... it's crystal clear. I think that people could only argue this because the idea of having four to six Cluster mines dropped on the table before the game starts is FREAKING INSANE and I'm not sure ANYONE WANTS THAT.

But just because someone doesn't want it to be doesn't change change how it is. It's quite possible they'll FAQ the interaction to be that way, but for right now RAW it's just obvious.

This is what I think is crystal clear:

The rule for Card Abilities on page 8 of the Rules Reference. The first bullet is the infamous once-per-opportunity rule.

The timing for Minefield Mapper is "During setup, after the "Place Forces" step..." One time during the quoted opportunity you may, "discard any number of your equipped (bomb) upgrade cards." If you have an Extra Munitions token on the chosen upgrades, then you may discard the Extra Munitions token instead. Proceed with resolving the rest of the text on Minefield Mapper. After the bomb tokens are placed, you cannot repeat any part of the process because that would violate the once-per-opportunity rule. The 4th step you listed violates that rule. You can't go back and discard the bomb upgrade card, because you already triggered Minefield Mapper and discarded a token instead of the upgrade card.

1 minute ago, BoxerlessBossk said:

Agree 100%. Scum Nym is very useful and nifty, but he's not really opening up brand new strategies. Rebel Nym can permanently block lanes of approach, and with Minefield Mapper he can do it turn 0 for the low, low price of free. Much more interesting to me than spawning twelve costly Cluster Mine tokens no-one's gonna fly over.

The Scurrg can't use the Minefield Mapper. Only 2 ships currently in game that can is the Punisher and the Aggressor (not the Tie Ag).

Havoc title lets you have a system slot and equip minefield mapper.

5 hours ago, LordBlades said:

On the other hand, isn't the Empire the only faction we don't see bombing on screen?

Watch ESB. Bombers bombing asteroids to flush out millennium falcon.

4 minutes ago, Mu0n729 said:

Havoc title lets you have a system slot and equip minefield mapper.

True, overlooked that. But as it's unique we aren't likely to see hordes of mapping Scurrgs... The Imperial Option only fits 2 Punishers in a List unless you really strip them down.

15 minutes ago, jmswood said:

This is what I think is crystal clear:

The rule for Card Abilities on page 8 of the Rules Reference. The first bullet is the infamous once-per-opportunity rule.

The timing for Minefield Mapper is "During setup, after the "Place Forces" step..." One time during the quoted opportunity you may, "discard any number of your equipped (bomb) upgrade cards." If you have an Extra Munitions token on the chosen upgrades, then you may discard the Extra Munitions token instead. Proceed with resolving the rest of the text on Minefield Mapper. After the bomb tokens are placed, you cannot repeat any part of the process because that would violate the once-per-opportunity rule. The 4th step you listed violates that rule. You can't go back and discard the bomb upgrade card, because you already triggered Minefield Mapper and discarded a token instead of the upgrade card.

This is a great explanation. Since Minefield Mapper isn't unique, I suppose you *could* put it on two ships. Have one trigger the Extra Munitions and have the other actually discard the upgrades. I'm not saying that's practical, but I suppose that would work if you're really desperate to litter the place with bombs.

You guys are such geeks ?. I am following this thread and trying to learn, but it's a bit over my head; I don't have my geek registration card quite to this level. But, that aside, it seems to me, this minefield ability might only work well at all in Epic.

We we're curious so, we tried it lat night as we proxied the ships and cards and ran 'em against solid Meta stuff, just to see what shenanigans we could come up with. It's cool, but I cannot see it making real competition level.......unless Paul or Blair get into them. The Rebel one is the best of the lot, in our opinion.

9 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

.

4) if you wish, go back to 1) and repeat, this time discarding the Upgrade Card.

This is the part we disagree with. You ALREADY selected that bomb to be discarded with minefield mapper. "Once per opportunity" means you cant select that bomb again on the same effect on the same turn, even though you could reasonable pay the cost again.

26 minutes ago, jwilliamson12 said:

This is a great explanation. Since Minefield Mapper isn't unique, I suppose you *could* put it on two ships. Have one trigger the Extra Munitions and have the other actually discard the upgrades. I'm not saying that's practical, but I suppose that would work if you're really desperate to litter the place with bombs.

When minefield mapper says "you", that generally refers to the ship it is equipped on, not your entire list. :l

1 minute ago, Rakaydos said:

This is the part we disagree with. You ALREADY selected that bomb to be discarded with minefield mapper. "Once per opportunity" means you cant select that bomb again on the same effect on the same turn, even though you could reasonable pay the cost again.

I could definitely agree with this - from the way I was reading your and other people's words, it seemed as though you were stating that you had to discard the upgrade card entirely even if you had EM, and that's not the case.

I was just coming off a long session of D&D where I really wanted to kick about four players in the shins at some point, and it really put me in an argumentative mood...

So, I can accept that reasoning. My only real counter-argument would be the phrasing "any number" on Minefield Mapper, but I'd be far happier NOT having dozens of mines littering the field to begin with.

At least Rebel Nym's ability explains why there were two bomblet tokens.

Missed little detail earlier. All Scurg pilots get EPT but the PS1? Are you f....g kidding me FFG?! I want EPTs for Deathrain and Redline in the next faq.

Just now, Suriel said:

Missed little detail earlier. All Scurg pilots get EPT but the PS1? Are you f....g kidding me FFG?! I want EPTs for Deathrain and Redline in the next faq.

No room on the bar.

27 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

No room on the bar.

That's a valid point. However, it still would be faq only, existing in ether. Somehow I don't think Punisher is in need of a reprint, which would trigger the need for additional slot on card.

1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

When minefield mapper says "you", that generally refers to the ship it is equipped on, not your entire list. :l

Snap. Completely overlooked that wording.

Two thoughts on Minefield Mapper:

• It seems very likely that a minesweeper or bomb damage mitigation upgrade will be coming in the future.
• Fortressing with Minefield Mapper is a very risky play in competitive games. If your opponent has more attack dice than you in their list, they can choose not to engage and have a favorable chance of winning the Final Salvo. For that reason, I think Minefield Mapper will be used mostly offensively and strategically (one or two bombs placed in whatever jousting lanes your opponent probably wanted to use), rather than super defensively.

12 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

I know that. But Mapping Minefield also has "May" and "any number of" in its phrase, giving it quite possibly the most clear-cut walkthrough of any Upgrade interaction:

1) Choose an equipped Bomb card with an Extra Munitions token on it.

2) Discard the token on it instead of the Upgrade card itself (as allowed by the Extra Munitions Upgrade).

3) Place the corresponding Mine token at past R3 of an enemy ship.

4) if you wish, go back to 1) and repeat, this time discarding the Upgrade Card.

It's... it's crystal clear. I think that people could only argue this because the idea of having four to six Cluster mines dropped on the table before the game starts is FREAKING INSANE and I'm not sure ANYONE WANTS THAT.

But just because someone doesn't want it to be doesn't change change how it is. It's quite possible they'll FAQ the interaction to be that way, but for right now RAW it's just obvious.

To pile on...

Minefield Mapper states:

"you may discard any number of your equipped <bomb> upgrade cards".

Lets take the example of a TIE Punisher with Cluster Mines + Conner Net + Extra Munitions + Minefield. In this case, the TIE Punisher has exactly TWO equipped <bomb> upgrade cards: one Conner Net, and one Cluster Mines. Extra Munitions is not an equipped <bomb> upgrade card. Extra Munitions tokens are not an equipped <bomb> upgrade card. So the "any number" here has a maximum value of two.

The only thing that the extra munitions tokens let you do, is discard the EM token on the bomb cards, instead of discarding the equipped bomb card itself, while still retaining the same effect. This is exactly how the EM card text operates.

Then you're done. You have reached the end of the card text, t here is no iterative "step 4". You do, however, still have the original <bomb> upgrade cards equipped (less their EM token), so you can use them once more during activation later in the game.

2 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

My only real counter-argument would be the phrasing "any number" on Minefield Mapper, but I'd be far happier NOT having dozens of mines littering the field to begin with.

"Any number" would be what allows you to just place a single bomb equipped if you have more than one bomb equipped. It then also allows for all the bombs you might have equipped but that doesn't create more than one opportunity to place a particular bomb upgrade that has an extra munitions token on it. This really:

2 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

ake the example of a TIE Punisher with Cluster Mines + Conner Net + Extra Munitions + Minefield. In this case, the TIE Punisher has exactly TWO equipped upgrade cards: one Conner Net, and one Cluster Mines. Extra Munitions is not an equipped <bomb> upgrade card. Extra Munitions tokens are not an equipped <bomb> upgrade card. So the "any number" here has a maximum value of two.

Hey, I'm fine with that interpretation. Frankly, I've moved most of my gameplay affection over to Armada anyway; at least in that game the actual iconic ships are good - I still play X-Wing mostly for Kart and Heroes with friends. For all that they're dragging me to the Sacramento tournament next saturday.

Oh, Force above. Minefield Mapper in Kessel Kup? "Yes, I'm going to make these turns REALLY impossible, and because I'm in a slow ship anyway you'll have to deal with it, not me."

10 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

Hey, I'm fine with that interpretation. Frankly, I've moved most of my gameplay affection over to Armada anyway; at least in that game the actual iconic ships are good - I still play X-Wing mostly for Kart and Heroes with friends.

Oh, Force above. Minefield Mapper in Kessel Kup? "Yes, I'm going to make these turns REALLY impossible, and because I'm in a slow ship anyway you'll have to deal with it, not me."

It's not really an interpretation, it is the only correct way to read it, rules as written. It's just not necessarily intuitively obvious, you have to literally step through each word systematically.

I'm working on some House Rules for casual play. It should make the iconic ships much more playable relative to the overpowered stuff that's currently ruling the meta. The bomb stuff in this release is going to make it tricky to tweak the TIE Bomber and TIE Punisher now.

Yeah, looking over the cards and the rules, its actually is pretty clear. You can discard the EM token(s) instead of the bomb upgrade(s), but you still only get one per bomb upgrade equipped. Still lets you get half of your payload already in place but can't to do the scary looking walls some were considering.

Still sounds fun for blocking off approach lanes, although Empire really needs an equitable damage boosting Crew member to really make them as scary as Rebel and Scum mines.

What is really making me think, is what is Rebel Nym going to do to Scenarios. You can mine map a Plasma Bomb right beside objectives and have it sit there all game until you need it to explode, in addition to dropping a Cluster Mine set somewhere important.

1 hour ago, MajorJuggler said:

It's not really an interpretation, it is the only correct way to read it, rules as written. It's just not necessarily intuitively obvious, you have to literally step through each word systematically.

I'm working on some House Rules for casual play. It should make the iconic ships much more playable relative to the overpowered stuff that's currently ruling the meta. The bomb stuff in this release is going to make it tricky to tweak the TIE Bomber and TIE Punisher now.

'interpretation' as in 'parsing something obscure and following it to its logical conclusion' not redefining as 'IMHO'.

7 hours ago, BoxerlessBossk said:

Agree 100%. Scum Nym is very useful and nifty, but he's not really opening up brand new strategies. Rebel Nym can permanently block lanes of approach, and with Minefield Mapper he can do it turn 0 for the low, low price of free. Much more interesting to me than spawning twelve costly Cluster Mine tokens no-one's gonna fly over.

You can do the same thing with cluster mines. You don't need to hold out a maneuver bomb with bums ability from mapper to block a lane. I see it more for dropping bombs where your opponent got out of range opponent got out, or flying over your own mines.

7 hours ago, boomaster said:

True, overlooked that. But as it's unique we aren't likely to see hordes of mapping Scurrgs... The Imperial Option only fits 2 Punishers in a List unless you really strip them down.

This is the combo I like. Though I really wish I could get genius AND cad bane together on one ship. Or cad bane and mapped.