"You may reconfigure the trays in each of your units before setup."

So when can you actually decide whether or not to reconfigure your units? Is it before Setup? (pg 4 Rules Reference) Or is it before you deploy your units to the table? (Step #7 of Setup)

The main issue here is whether or not you can look at how the terrain is setup before you decide to reconfigure your units.

You can't make the argument of before any of the steps in set-up (effectively step 0) as step 1 is building your army and until you do that and choose Lord Hawthorne you don't have the ability.

My opinion would be that you would use this ability after step7 as until they are deployed your units haven't been "configured". This would mean that you would have to legally deploy them in their original configuration and then reconfigure the units once all are deployed.

People may argue that this gives an advantage as you can see the terrain placement before deciding; however, my response to this would be that the build abilities of characters are supposed to give an advantage and there should be no instance where use of the characters build ability would be detrimental to their own force (as it could be if you had to choose the final configuration before terrain was placed).

I agree. I would prefer that wording to read "You may reconfigure the trays in each of your units before deployment ."

2 hours ago, stet2 said:

You can't make the argument of before any of the steps in set-up (effectively step 0) as step 1 is building your army and until you do that and choose Lord Hawthorne you don't have the ability.

My opinion would be that you would use this ability after step7 as until they are deployed your units haven't been "configured". This would mean that you would have to legally deploy them in their original configuration and then reconfigure the units once all are deployed.

People may argue that this gives an advantage as you can see the terrain placement before deciding; however, my response to this would be that the build abilities of characters are supposed to give an advantage and there should be no instance where use of the characters build ability would be detrimental to their own force (as it could be if you had to choose the final configuration before terrain was placed).

Then the phrasing would be "after setup" or "before the first turn." Given the wording, it should be occurring at step "0," which is impossible. So it should be resolved as early as possible. To me that's during step 1. So you decide during army building what you want your configurations to be.

Saying "before is impossible, so it must be when I want it to" doesn't seem logical to me.

In terms of why I think the wording is this way, I think whomever wrote that line forgot that army building is technically during setup and not before. I have nothing to back this up, but it seems reasonable.

Per the original post: No. I don't believe you get to see the map before configuration

I'm not arbitrarily saying it should be when I want it to be.

Given the fact that before set-up is impossible I'm looking at the other wording on the card and the intent of the abilities to try determine when the ability should take place.

In terms of the wording of the ability: I believe that in order to be re-configured they first have to have been configured which I believe happens when they are deployed.

In terms of the intent of the abilities: The intent of the Character Build abilities is to provide a benefit to your force and as such I do not feel it should be carried out during a step which would then allow your opponent to make it a detriment through placement of terrain.

You contend that the person who wrote this forgot that building the army was part of the set-up and use that as an argument for saying you should therefore do it as early as possible with no other justification.

I would argue that it is just as likely that they confused the wording "set-up" as setting up your army (i.e. deployment) rather than setting-up the game.

@Church14 and @stet2
You each make excellent points.

17 minutes ago, stet2 said:

I'm not arbitrarily saying it should be when I want it to be.

Given the fact that before set-up is impossible I'm looking at the other wording on the card and the intent of the abilities to try determine when the ability should take place.

In terms of the wording of the ability: I believe that in order to be re-configured they first have to have been configured which I believe happens when they are deployed.

In terms of the intent of the abilities: The intent of the Character Build abilities is to provide a benefit to your force and as such I do not feel it should be carried out during a step which would then allow your opponent to make it a detriment through placement of terrain.

You contend that the person who wrote this forgot that building the army was part of the set-up and use that as an argument for saying you should therefore do it as early as possible with no other justification.

I would argue that it is just as likely that they confused the wording "set-up" as setting up your army (i.e. deployment) rather than setting-up the game.

My phrasing could have been better.

I don't think they are configured when you deploy. I think they are configured when you purchase/choose them during army building. If you look on page 3 of RRG, you see them mention paying a points cost for a certain configuration. There isn't any wording in the deployment portions of RRG about configuration. So you added a new term to a phase where the RRG never used it.

Yes you pay a points cost for a certain configuration but there is a difference between "configuration" and "configured".

Configuration is the formation they must be put together in. Configured is when they are physically put into that formation.

A fine distinction but, in the absence of anything else and with the additional argument of the intent of these abilities being beneficial (which I consider the more persuasive of the two points I mentioned), I would still contend that step 7 is the more logical point to do the re-configuration.

I won't be too disappointed though if I turn out to be wrong as what this really boils down to is a choice between consistency of damage and maximum possible damage; if you are increasing threat for maximum damage it is coming not just at the expense of re-rolls (giving more consistent damage) but at manoeuvrability as the higher the threat the more unwieldy the unit becomes.

To my mind, that trade-off will rarely be worth it.

Does Hawthore have a rules update on his inventory sheet like Ankaur does?

No he doesnt. His card already says what it needs to say other than what step it happens, which is a flop on their part. Its already restricted to 4 trays which is what the rule would mention if it existed.

I took it as you just reform your trays before deployment. Depending on terrain i may not want my 4x1 cavalry lol

20 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

No he doesnt. His card already says what it needs to say other than what step it happens, which is a flop on their part. Its already restricted to 4 trays which is what the rule would mention if it existed.

I took it as you just reform your trays before deployment. Depending on terrain i may not want my 4x1 cavalry lol

I would think the same, as if it is static, it's pretty easy to completely shut down a 4 wide with terrain, or severely limit its options anyway.

Before setup. To me it's pretty clear they intend for this to happen in step one of set up army building.

Aliana specifically says after deployment.

I think saying technically you can't do Hawthorne's ability before step 1. So I'm gonna do the ability where I prefer makes no sense.

46 minutes ago, Ywingscum said:

Before setup. To me it's pretty clear they intend for this to happen in step one of set up army building.

Aliana specifically says after deployment.

I think saying technically you can't do Hawthorne's ability before step 1. So I'm gonna do the ability where I prefer makes no sense.

How is specifying a point during setup when we weren't given one, better than It effectively being 'during' setup? If it can't be before, it needs to be during, and as we weren't given a point specifically, anytime prior to deployment is incredibly logical given the interaction that takes place during deployment.

But it is before. So it's part of step 1.

I'll admit I saw this ability and assumed it "should" take place during Step 7, unit deployment, as that felt right to me. It's a potentially useful trick, especially for converting 2x2s into 4x1s (factoring in all the pros and cons that come with that). It was something I was looking forward to building an army around. But having the option to switch back to 2x2s would be nice if the terrain winds up being really tight.

Add this one to the list of things that need confirmation and/or clarification.

1 hour ago, Ywingscum said:

But it is before. So it's part of step 1.

Step 1 is part of setup, it has to be before setup, which is nothing. Look at setup in the rrg. Even step 1 is during setup. So why argue specifically that point when all points suggested are during setup? That is why I'm targeting your argument, you are saying 'no, it has to be my specific during setup, not yours'.

I believe the ability is intended to be useful, and not just potentially screw you over so being locked in is counter to that. Heroes abilities have 1 thing in common, they all give us a form of flexibility we didn't have.

35 minutes ago, Darthain said:

Step 1 is part of setup, it has to be before setup, which is nothing. Look at setup in the rrg. Even step 1 is during setup. So why argue specifically that point when all points suggested are during setup? That is why I'm targeting your argument, you are saying 'no, it has to be my specific during setup, not yours'.

I believe the ability is intended to be useful, and not just potentially screw you over so being locked in is counter to that. Heroes abilities have 1 thing in common, they all give us a form of flexibility we didn't have.

Even at step 1, he provides a ton of flexibility. Give your 2x2 cavalry the Column Tactics card and make it a 1x4. Nearly impossible to block and gains a lot of damage. Make that 2x2 archers a 4x1 for some gross damage output.

Units already come 4 wide and that is a risk you accept when you purchase them in step 1. The extra width is a huge bonus and a potential liability.

There is no justification to say that something that is intended to be before setup should occur at the end of setup. Arguing that it is between step 7 and 8 is functionally no different than saying after 9. The only reasonable or justifiable interpretation is that it should be as soon as possible (between 1-2) so as to be before as much of setup as possible.

1 hour ago, Darthain said:

Step 1 is part of setup, it has to be before setup, which is nothing. Look at setup in the rrg. Even step 1 is during setup. So why argue specifically that point when all points suggested are during setup? That is why I'm targeting your argument, you are saying 'no, it has to be my specific during setup, not yours'.

I believe the ability is intended to be useful, and not just potentially screw you over so being locked in is counter to that. Heroes abilities have 1 thing in common, they all give us a form of flexibility we didn't have.

Until there is an official ruling otherwise I have to go with it part of step one.

step one is build an army, this is clearly when you use the ability, as you chose your formations. Changing formations is a fundamental powerful ability.

i do agree I like the thought of being able to change it up based on terrain, but I really don't believe this is the case.