I'd want to call it ECM but that's taken already, so "Comm Noise Emitter"?

Fleet Support Upgrade Slot
squads at range 1-2 ignore the keyword: intel and it's effects
5 pts?

Or maybe:
squads at range 1-2 ignore the keyword: Heavy
6 pts?

I don't think it works well enough it if targets the intel ship directly. It's too easy to position the intel ship out of the zone and still get a lot of benefit from it anyway. So I think it needs to benefit your own ships as opposed to hurt the enemy directly.

EMI - ElectroMagnetic Interference

I would stick with "enemy squad at 1-X range lose the keyword Intel." Removing heavy from your squads isn't comm noise or interference, but more of a Fighter Coordinator type of upgrade.

Intel is such a precarious idea, as it is a bit of a 'bandaid' type fix, imo. I generally don't feel those are a good idea.

We went from 'I never get to bomb, because other squads' getting your bombers tied up and useless is frustrating, not fun. Then it was intel and screw you I'm bombing, leaving ships a bit exposed to bombers and that's kind of not fun, just kill intel, easy enough... That round (or 2 of luck hates you) taking care of the intel hurts.

But then if you counter intel, you might be back at 1. No joy is to be had from either scenario. Maybe if intel were more 'grant your fighters within 1-2 grit. Effectively as long as single engaged they can still move? Who knows.

I'd have much preferred Intel to be a ship upgrade, that was limited as an Exhaust to use, and could only be used on squadrons the ship with the upgrade itself is activating.

Then you'd have the ability to get some bombing done, but not completely and utterly ignore enemy squadrons by continually flying away from them.

Or just take away the bomber keyword from xwing aces.

46 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Or just take away the bomber keyword from xwing aces.

I'm confused as to how the bomber keyword fits in this discussion? Just a "too many bombers" thing exacerbating Intel?

2 hours ago, Darthain said:

Intel is such a precarious idea, as it is a bit of a 'bandaid' type fix, imo. I generally don't feel those are a good idea.

We went from 'I never get to bomb, because other squads' getting your bombers tied up and useless is frustrating, not fun. Then it was intel and screw you I'm bombing, leaving ships a bit exposed to bombers and that's kind of not fun, just kill intel, easy enough... That round (or 2 of luck hates you) taking care of the intel hurts.

But then if you counter intel, you might be back at 1. No joy is to be had from either scenario. Maybe if intel were more 'grant your fighters within 1-2 grit. Effectively as long as single engaged they can still move? Who knows.

My hope was this wasn't a clear bandaid fix. In that it was based around a ship that you needed to bring with the squads you wanted to be able to lock down other intel protected squads. Since ships move different than squads, there is some work in timing and lining it up. The counter for this becomes other ships to shoot the flotilla required for the upgrade.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

EMI - ElectroMagnetic Interference

I would stick with "enemy squad at 1-X range lose the keyword Intel." Removing heavy from your squads isn't comm noise or interference, but more of a Fighter Coordinator type of upgrade.

I think it's too easy to avoid with an intel ship. It does limit it.. I just think it doesn't limit it enough for the trouble you've gone through. They will still put their bombers mostly where they want, and the intel ship just outside your bubble but able to catch the bombers they need.

15 minutes ago, homedrone said:

My hope was this wasn't a clear bandaid fix. In that it was based around a ship that you needed to bring with the squads you wanted to be able to lock down other intel protected squads. Since ships move different than squads, there is some work in timing and lining it up. The counter for this becomes other ships to shoot the flotilla required for the upgrade.

I think it's too easy to avoid with an intel ship. It does limit it.. I just think it doesn't limit it enough for the trouble you've gone through. They will still put their bombers mostly where they want, and the intel ship just outside your bubble but able to catch the bombers they need.

No, I mean intel itself is something of a bandaid fix. Any counter to intel will obviously require squads (otherwise your opponent doesn't need intel), but will still be a bandaid squared.

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

I'm confused as to how the bomber keyword fits in this discussion? Just a "too many bombers" thing exacerbating Intel?

If you look at it from what the imperials have it makes sense.

only the rebels are able to

1)protect their intel

2)eliminate enemy squads

AND

3) bomb ships

by spamming the same squad/aces. Imps require you to make some concessions to one or two of the above, whereas rebels are happy to field only x-wings and their aces around their Intel and face whatever is thrown at them.

If they didn't have the bomber keyword it would cut into their anti-ship firepower and they would have to bring other bombers, freeing up angles to hit the Intel from

10 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

If you look at it from what the imperials have it makes sense.

only the rebels are able to

1)protect their intel

2)eliminate enemy squads

AND

3) bomb ships

by spamming the same squad/aces. Imps require you to make some concessions to one or two of the above, whereas rebels are happy to field only x-wings and their aces around their Intel and face whatever is thrown at them.

If they didn't have the bomber keyword it would cut into their anti-ship firepower and they would have to bring other bombers, freeing up angles to hit the Intel from

Well, to be fair, you do pay 19-20 points a Squadron to do that, for the aces.

And the Regulars are stuck with a Red Bomber.

19 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Well, to be fair, you do pay 19-20 points a Squadron to do that, for the aces.

And the Regulars are stuck with a Red Bomber.

Generic X-wings are only thirteen points. The only Imp. squad with Bomber and Escort is unique and also thirteen points. The Imps only have the single unique Snipe squadron as well.

I think though we are again back to flotillas with this. Intel becomes a much bigger deal when you get activated and can both shoot and do the move. And there are way more squadron activations going about because of the flotillas.

Maybe if Intel was only good in the squadron phase?

2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Generic X-wings are only thirteen points. The only Imp. squad with Bomber and Escort is unique and also thirteen points. The Imps only have the single unique Snipe squadron as well.

I think though we are again back to flotillas with this. Intel becomes a much bigger deal when you get activated and can both shoot and do the move. And there are way more squadron activations going about because of the flotillas.

Maybe if Intel was only good in the squadron phase?

Yes, they're Unique. But Man are they good for their points or WHAT .... A 12 point Snipe whose Snipe is the same as his regular guns? A 13 Point Escort Bomber with Black bomber die? Great.

If Intel wasn't usable at both the start and end of the squadron's movement it might be enough.

"Intel: After moving, all enemy squadrons within range 1 of you acquire the Heavy trait."

This way you can't use a single Intel squadron to free bombers nearby and then move to free bombers somewhere else.

11 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Generic X-wings are only thirteen points. The only Imp. squad with Bomber and Escort is unique and also thirteen points. The Imps only have the single unique Snipe squadron as well.

Don't think any of this matters anymore with Sloane coming out. You can burn away Braces with your attacks. And Imps are capable of 6 dice anti-squadron shots with Howl and Flight Controllers. Or Counter 4 with Howl and Dengar. Add in Soontir and they either take Counter 4 or auto damage 1.

I don't consider the X-Wing aces to be amazing since they have Escort. With Biggs, that's 40 points in 2 squads.

I think an easy fix through an upgrade card would be an Imperial officer that lets friendly squadrons you (his ship) activate ignore the Escort keyword until the end of the status phase. This would allow imperials to try punching out a serious threat early, but then they'd likely be stuck in with a bunch of enemy squadrons.

4 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

I think an easy fix through an upgrade card would be an Imperial officer that lets friendly squadrons you (his ship) activate ignore the Escort keyword until the end of the status phase. This would allow imperials to try punching out a serious threat early, but then they'd likely be stuck in with a bunch of enemy squadrons.

That doesnt fix anything, just makes the problem slightly different and much worse.

2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

That doesnt fix anything, just makes the problem slightly different and much worse.

It actually fixes a lot.

Even without Rieekan, the core rebel squadron strength is resiliency. Between Jan, Biggs, Gallant Haven and lots of high -hull multirole squadrons Rebels are built to last. Escort further emphasizes that by forcing players to hit high defense escorts first.

A limited ability to bypass one of their most widespread defensive abilities without bypassing the others would emphasize the offensive nature of Imperial squadrons while still leaving Rebels with viable defensive bonuses.

The way I generally approach this is by sending in my own bombers as the Imperial player first and forcing the Rebel admiral to deal with them. Not so easy to ball up their aces if my bombers are not in a tight group. Then I can counter strike with my fighter squadrons if they do decide to engage.

If they ignore my bombers I will surround their "ball" when it comes near me, if it don't then my bombers keep bombing away peacefully...

This kind if tactics even works against Rieekan and his ilk, at least it did the one time I faced it.

You don't fight aces heavy lists that uses Intel with quality but quantity which Tie-fighters bring in spades, Jamming fields make it even better if your Ties are backed by Howlrunner and Flight Controllers as they should.

But anyway, Intel is combated with quantity not quality... that is my advice.

Not saying it will always work, but it is a tactic that do work pretty well. I'm not worried about using my bombers to draw my opponent into a bad spot. One of the reason I don't use Rhymer anymore is because I don't want my bombers to clump up, instead I force my opponent to spread out to stop them. If you also have the Corrupter giving orders they get speed 5 which helps.

Some of the tech that is being talked about already exist for Imperials in one way or another. Instigator is the Intel hate bubble. Admiral Chiraneau was intel before intel existed.

On the other hand, Bombers can pop a raider too easily plus bubble is not as big as players would like. Well I guess proper fighter backup will be needed to protect Instigator so you can pin and grind the enemy squadrons. Chiraneau does too little to help bombers on their way and is more of a Mithel combo piece. Hold on, Imperials have access to several +1 speed titles. Too bad, corrupter has been MIA for possibly point pricing reasons and Vector can't hit your heavy bombers unless you enjoy running only gamma and tempest squad cause those are the only cheap to moderate bombers available without heavy.

8 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

It actually fixes a lot.

Even without Rieekan, the core rebel squadron strength is resiliency. Between Jan, Biggs, Gallant Haven and lots of high -hull multirole squadrons Rebels are built to last. Escort further emphasizes that by forcing players to hit high defense escorts first.

A limited ability to bypass one of their most widespread defensive abilities without bypassing the others would emphasize the offensive nature of Imperial squadrons while still leaving Rebels with viable defensive bonuses.

Yeah but it basically makes X-Wings practically worthless in some cases since the reason you're taking them is to protect the rest of your squads (say you aren't flying a Bomber List), as well as the generic YT-1300. And by removing the most basic of the defensive options, you're forcing the rebel players to bring the others. What if I didn't want to bring a whale at all, let alone Gallant Haven? What if I didn't want Biggs? What if I didn't want Jan?

It makes it more difficult to have squad lists that want to operate on the front line, tying up enemy squads, like an A-Wing, X-Wing, Z-95 group. I think bypassing Escort isn't quite the fix.

17 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Yeah but it basically makes X-Wings practically worthless in some cases since the reason you're taking them is to protect the rest of your squads (say you aren't flying a Bomber List), as well as the generic YT-1300. And by removing the most basic of the defensive options, you're forcing the rebel players to bring the others. What if I didn't want to bring a whale at all, let alone Gallant Haven? What if I didn't want Biggs? What if I didn't want Jan?

It makes it more difficult to have squad lists that want to operate on the front line, tying up enemy squads, like an A-Wing, X-Wing, Z-95 group. I think bypassing Escort isn't quite the fix.

Ignoring escort doesn't ignore the other defensive buffs Rebels get, including the ones keyed off the Escort ability. You can even make it a discard effect. Make one solid alpha strike, then you're bogged down in Escorts. Have players using escorts as a screen instead of a pool. Sit Jan back a few inches out of range but hawking up the targets.

2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Ignoring escort doesn't ignore the other defensive buffs Rebels get, including the ones keyed off the Escort ability. You can even make it a discard effect. Make one solid alpha strike, then you're bogged down in Escorts. Have players using escorts as a screen instead of a pool. Sit Jan back a few inches out of range but hawking up the targets.

See, that works in some cases, but if my entire squadron plan is to have the X-Wings sit next to the Z-95 swarm the entire game whilst the latter attempts to do some serious damage, bypassing escort will knock out my primary hitters in that alpha strike, causing the X-Wings to lose their primary purpose. The possibility of that will lessen my desire to fly it, and so in an attempt to prepare against my opponent bring such a card, I'd have to fly a certain ball a certain way. I could do the above. Or rather, I'd have to have the X-Wings go in first and take the hits, then move in my Zs, and since they're the lynchpin of the ball, my opponent would likely just wait for them to show up before discarding his card, bringing us back to square one.

With Sloane entering into the arena then Rebel Ace balls will diminish in importance since 8p Ties using 4-6 dice will slice through them almost as easy as any regular squadrons. You burn one brace and then you just ignore the one left... you are very likely to roll at least one accuracy in every attack. This is from an 8p Tie or 11p interceptor.

You will have to start to actually protect your aces now and not use them as meat shields. Jan Ors are still going to be good, but you will need to defend her. Sabre squadron can still burn her braces so watch out...

Here's an idea. It doesn't nerf the keyword specifically, but would allow you to break up tight formations.

Squadron Keyword:

Engine Sabotage - After you attack a squadron, it must perform a move at a minimum of speed 4. If it cannot, it is destroyed. This ignores all movement restrictions such as being engaged and it can do this even if it has already activated.

2 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

Here's an idea. It doesn't nerf the keyword specifically, but would allow you to break up tight formations.

Engine Sabotage - After you attack a squadron, it must perform a move at a minimum of speed 4. If it cannot, it is destroyed. This ignores all movement restrictions such as being engaged and it can do this even if it has already activated.

Erm, assuming this only works on ship AA, then a Victory with this card, when rolling a crit or accuracy, still one-shots the 28 point 8 hull Hera, for example. Seems a bit unfair, no? It'd have to be priced highly to guarantee the death of all Speed 3-1 squads in 2 arcs.

Heck, if it was an offensive retrofit, then a Quasar with red dice could roll a blank and still destroy all squads at red range in two arcs.

So maybe make it a discard/if it suffers damage restriction? Once per turn/activation? Exhaust to use?