48 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The actual modification part, though, you don't have to ask for.

M9-G8 and Palpatine is the same thing... in fact Lowhhrick should work... but it was not FAQed.

When something, do that, then other ship can do that... These three cards use this structure...

Edit:

When another friendly ship at Range 1 is defending (versus) When a ship you have locked is attacking
you may spend 1 reinforce token (versus) you may choose 1 attack die
the defender adds 1 evade result (versus) The attacker must reroll that die

No semantic difference at all...

2 minutes ago, muribundi said:

M9-G8 and Palpatine is the same thing... in fact Lowhhrick should work... but it was not FAQed.

When something, do that, then other ship can do that... These three cards use this structure...

They don't. M9-G8 and Palp modify as a third party because "you" choose/modify. Low enables "the defender" to add a result, removing himself from the modification.

9 minutes ago, muribundi said:

you may spend 1 reinforce token (versus) you may choose 1 attack die
the defender adds 1 evade result (versus) The attacker must reroll that die

No semantic difference at all...

The sentence structure is not what matters here. The specific vocabulary is. "Then, remove one shield" is a very different effect than "Then, suffer one damage," for example. Spending a reinforce token is not a dice modification. Choosing an attack or defense die that the owner must reroll is.

16 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

The sentence structure is not what matters here. The specific vocabulary is. "Then, remove one shield" is a very different effect than "Then, suffer one damage," for example. Spending a reinforce token is not a dice modification. Choosing an attack or defense die that the owner must reroll is.

Choosing a dice is also not a modification at all...

They have the same trigger, and the action they do is something not related to modification and it is a choice. Then the modification is still forced and done by the target ship... they are the same thing. Except one don't have an FAQ

44 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Choosing a dice is also not a modification at all...

They have the same trigger, and the action they do is something not related to modification and it is a choice. Then the modification is still forced and done by the target ship... they are the same thing. Except one don't have an FAQ

No, the choosing is the modification. Basically FFG didn't want people picking up and rolling their opponents' dice. Link here , and reinforced as official by the R7 Astromech mention in Omega Leader's FAQ entry.

3 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

No, the choosing is the modification. Basically FFG didn't want people picking up and rolling their opponents' dice. Link here , and reinforced as official by the R7 Astromech mention in Omega Leader's FAQ entry.

I'm back to agree with you this time!

Let's focus on R7. When R7 forces the enemy attacker to reroll, who is modifying that die? It happens during the defender modifies window. The attacker probably doesn't want to reroll the die but they must. R7 is modifying the die by forcing a reroll. The fact that you don't get to physically roll your opponent's dice is a red herring. R7 modifies the die the FAQ makes this clear.

When M9-G8 is used on an enemy ship, it is almost identical. M9 chooses the die and it is rerolled during the defender modifies window. The opponent picks up and rolls the die but M9 is doing the modifying.

In other words, FFG has ruled that the player physically picking up and rolling the die is not necessarily the player that is doing the modification.

Where your brain starts to cramp is that M9 also works on friendly ships where "the attacker" is controlled by the same player as M9. So the language meant to keep your opponents filth-ridden hands off your dice now seems to imply that M9 allows the other friendly to modify their own dice which is not really what is happening as described above.

tl:dr R7, M9, and Omega Leader apparently contradict RAW because choosing and forcing a die to be rolled is considered (by FFG) to be the dice modification, not the physical act of throwing an octahedron.

45 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

R7, M9, and Omega Leader apparently contradict RAW because choosing and forcing a die to be rolled is considered (by FFG) to be the dice modification, not the physical act of throwing an octahedron.

Bingo! So M9-G8, even though it can be used on a friendly, piggybacks off of the mechanics and wording of upgrades like R7, Zuckrew, Elusiveness, etc. So that's the mechanical distinction from something like Howlrunner or Jonus. And in the case of M9-G8 and Palp, "you" can thus source that modification outside of the attack participants, whereas other abilities and effects cannot.

It's definitely a weird thing to wrap your head around because what seems intuitively mechanically important and what is actually deemed mechanically important by FFG are often at odds, but the logic chain is there.

Yeah, if M9 did not work on friendlies, this whole mess doesn't happen.

Nah, the whole mess is still a whole mess, it's just one where there was a common consensus previously that has been disrupted. It would have been disrupted by Palp if M9 hadn't happened. E: and it's OL and Palp that actually did the disrupting - before that blocking mods wasn't possible, so it didn't matter who was the source of them.

What the source of a dice modification is, now matters, and it's honestly unclear what the intention is in the case of Howlrunner, Jonus etc. I'd like to see a more general rule, tbh, saying something along the lines of modification always being done by the ship with the upgrade or ability that is doing the modification. It would be a very clear cut way of ruling, and we wouldn't have to whinge about wording being inconsistent.

The FAQ entry for M9 is a real sticking point. If the FAQ read this way, it would be better.

• When using M9-G8, the source of the reroll is the ship equipped with M9-G8 is the one modifying the die , not the ship attacking regardless of which player physically rolls . For example, if a ship is attacking with Snap Shot , a ship equipped with M9-G8 can cause that ship to reroll a die.

Quote

Via Chris Brown Worlds Judge from Worlds Marshal Frank Brooks

Q: Can Lowhhrick give an evade to a ship that is locked and being shot by Omega Leader.

A: No, Lowhhrick causes the ship to do the add, which it cannot do because of Omega Leader.

For people wondering about outstanding rules questions, t his was on gold squad podcast.

Vindication?

Well, as far as I understand, the problem comes from wording.

M9-G8 and Palpatine clearly refers the ship using the ability as "you". So, it means that the ship using the ability is [you], who causes the [other] ship to reroll, So, that makes [you] the source of the ability, not the other ship, thus bypassing Snap-Shot restriction.

... Whereas Jonus, refers the ship using the ability as "it". So, it implies that the ship using the rerolls is the other ship [it], which consequently makes the [other] ship the source of the rerolls.

However, if Jonus wording were something like:

"When another friendly ship at range 1 attacks with a secondary weapon, YOU may choose and reroll up to 2 attack dice." Then Jonus [you] would be the source of the modification, and snap-shot could be bypassed.