Except the FAQ doesn't say the source is the ship choosing, the FAQ says the source is the ship equipped with the upgrade/ability. From the FAQ:
"When using M9-G8, the source of the reroll is the ship equipped with M9-G8, not the ship attacking. For example, if a ship is attacking with Snap Shot, a ship equipped with M9-G8, can cause that ship to reroll a die."

Again, it does not say that the source of the reroll is the ship choosing the die, it says that the source is the one equipped with M9G8.

Look, it would be much simpler if FFG had simply ruled in a manner consistent with the wording on the cards. M9G8 would not work, R7 would work, Palpatine would be unaffected, "It may reroll" or "the attacker may reroll" would mean that the ship instructed to do the reroll is indeed the source of said reroll. That would make an ENORMOUS amount of sense to me, and be much easier to understand/explain. But they didn't. FFG said the source of a reroll is the ship equipped with the ability, so that's what we really should be going with for the time being.

Who knows, maybe they will change their mind and rule that these cards really mean what they say, and save us all a lot of grief. Eventually.

I don't expect you to find this convincing, but the only cases they've ruled on are the cases where the modification comes from the ship with the ability/upgrade, not the ones where the modification comes from the ship performing the attack. That could just be coincidence, but it's a big one, and it gets bigger every time a new "must reroll" card comes out and immediately gets an Omega Leader FAQ, while Howlrunner's been around forever and doesn't get mentioned.

1 hour ago, digitalbusker said:

I don't expect you to find this convincing, but the only cases they've ruled on are the cases where the modification comes from the ship with the ability/upgrade, not the ones where the modification comes from the ship performing the attack. That could just be coincidence, but it's a big one, and it gets bigger every time a new "must reroll" card comes out and immediately gets an Omega Leader FAQ, while Howlrunner's been around forever and doesn't get mentioned.

Is there a single instance of the alternative? Like, any upgrade where a ship "may" modify the dice of another ship but doesn't get to modify through OL?

There are a decent number of abilities that let one ship modify another ship's dice including Elusiveness, R7 Astromech, M9-G8, Sensor Jammer, Zuckuss, and Juke for example. Most of these don't work on Omega Leader because they allow the defender to modify the attacker's dice or vice versa. If you are the attacker or defender with Omega Leader, then you can't modify anyone's dice. All of these work with Snap Shot since only the ship attacking can't modify his own dice.

3 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

I don't expect you to find this convincing, but the only cases they've ruled on are the cases where the modification comes from the ship with the ability/upgrade, not the ones where the modification comes from the ship performing the attack. That could just be coincidence, but it's a big one, and it gets bigger every time a new "must reroll" card comes out and immediately gets an Omega Leader FAQ, while Howlrunner's been around forever and doesn't get mentioned.

We do have an example if I understand your point correctly.... What I think you are saying is "We don't have an example where the ship being locked down by Omega Leader is the one with the modification ability, but the ship being instructed to reroll is not locked down by Omega Leader".

If that is your point, I actually do find it convincing. In fact, that was the specific example that tipped the scales in my mind and made it clear that the "source" is the ship with the ability, regardless of the wording on the card about who performs the reroll.. Specifically, R7 Astromech. R7 cannot cause Omega Leader to reroll dice, because the ship with R7 is the one locked down by Omega Leader. It doesn't matter that Omega Leader IS allowed to reroll dice and that R7 Astromech instructs Omega Leader to do so, because the ship locked down by OL is the one with R7 and that ship (the one with R7) is the "source".

Edit: Also Elusiveness. It works the same way.

Then they followed those up with a specific ruling on M9G8 that actually spells out the reasoning; " When using M9-G8, the source of the reroll is the ship equipped with M9-G8, not the ship attacking." That really didn't leave a lot of room left for the contrary position.

It's like I said, don't overthink it:

The ship taking the decission is the one doing the modification.

It's in the FaQ if you read carefully:

"... When that ship attacks or defends against "Omega Leader", that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice".

Who resolves the ability? The ship with the upgrade/ability? Not necessarily.

Howlrunner's friends may reroll an attack die. They resolve, they use HR's ability. Against OL they cannot.

R7 forces to reroll dice. If Omega is the one modifying (rerolling), why is the ship with R7 the source? Because it's the one resolving the ability. So against OL, it cannot do that.

Same with M9G8. But this time, it can act as a third party in an attack involving OL and a friendly ship. As it is the ship resolving (forcing the attacker to reroll), it can do it, even if the attacker couldnt modify attsck dice by itself.

Same with other "you cant modify dice" situations, as snapshot.

The one modifying is the one resolving the ability, not the one who the effect affects to, nor the one with the upgrade/ability, nor the one who says may/must, etc.

The extreme end of the spectrum would be Youngster with Marksmanship. Can we all agree that Youngster isn't the source of the modification when a friendly ship uses his copy of Marksmanship?

Sure, because that ship is taking an action. I did come across this additional beauty, notably under "Captain Jonus". I should have mentioned it earlier.

"If another friendly ship performs multiple
attacks with a secondary weapon (such as
Cluster Missiles), Captain Jonus may use his
ability for each attack."

Again, it is Captain Jonus who is using the ability.

On 7/30/2017 at 2:08 AM, KineticOperator said:

Sure, because that ship is taking an action. I did come across this additional beauty, notably under "Captain Jonus". I should have mentioned it earlier.

"If another friendly ship performs multiple
attacks with a secondary weapon (such as
Cluster Missiles), Captain Jonus may use his
ability for each attack."

Again, it is Captain Jonus who is using the ability.

This still doesn't mean what you think it does. Jonus triggers his ability twice, but he enables the other ship to modify dice. If he were the one modifying dice, his rerolls would have a "you" trigger, a la Palp or M9-G8.

Palp and M9-G8 SPECIFICALLY get around things like OL and Snap Shot because their "you" triggers get around the target-ship modification limitations. Jonus doesn't.

Any new developments on this? it seens to me that KineticOperator's arguments are very good, i would rule the same way. It seens to me that FFG needs to create a general rule in the FAQ to who is making the modification, becouse this is not the only card that generates such doubts. It is always the ship that have the hability? or should we check the wording (that many times it very confusing and bad written).

That argument that "if you have the option" the source is not the ship with the hability seens very abitrary for me without a oficial word from FFG.

lol of course not.

20 hours ago, galahadba said:

Any new developments on this? it seens to me that KineticOperator's arguments are very good, i would rule the same way. It seens to me that FFG needs to create a general rule in the FAQ to who is making the modification, becouse this is not the only card that generates such doubts. It is always the ship that have the hability? or should we check the wording (that many times it very confusing and bad written).

That argument that "if you have the option" the source is not the ship with the hability seens very abitrary for me without a oficial word from FFG.

M9-G8's modification belongs to the ship with M9-G8, because "you" force the reroll. Captain Jonus's rerolls do not belong to Jonus, because "it [another friendly ship at range 1]" may reroll those dice, not "you". It has nothing to do with whether or not a ship has the option, but rather who that mandate or option is given to.

3 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

M9-G8's modification belongs to the ship with M9-G8, because "you" force the reroll. Captain Jonus's rerolls do not belong to Jonus, because "it [another friendly ship at range 1]" may reroll those dice, not "you". It has nothing to do with whether or not a ship has the option, but rather who that mandate or option is given to.

It is a good Logic, as good as the one that says that the ship that have the hability is the one using it. What is seens to me looking at all the discussion and examples is that FFG never worried to specify who is using the hability when it is a friendly hability, becouse in the end it really never matered before, so it uses "you may", "it may", "jonus hability can be used", etc. Now we have things like Omega Leader and Snap Shot where who is the source of the modification matter (and the most used one, Palpatine is alread in the faq) and they have to rule it and resolve this in the FAQ, becouse as i see it is very open to intepretation.

I'll just toss in a vote of confidence for KO. His interpretation meshes with every single ruling that has been spelled out in the FAQ by FFG. Is there an official word on Howlrunner and Omega Leader? It's not in the FAQ that I can find.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

I'll just toss in a vote of confidence for KO. His interpretation meshes with every single ruling that has been spelled out in the FAQ by FFG. Is there an official word on Howlrunner and Omega Leader? It's not in the FAQ that I can find.

It doesn't, though. The ship that selects the dice for modification is the one that is doing the modifying. We have FAQ entries for OL and M9-G8 that make this clear. R7 doesn't work vs. OL because "you" choose. M9-G8 and Palp work against OL if on another ship because "you" refers to a different ship than the one involved in the attack. These are the FAQ precedents we have.

Captain Jonus defers the reroll selection by specifying "it" and not "you". Howlrunner does the same. Lowhhrick similarly can't use his ability to buff an OL-locked ship, because "the defender" adds the evade result.

Who chooses the dice to mod or who adds the redult is what dictates who is doing the modding. Those are the precedents we have. The origin of the ability isn't what matters.

33 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

It doesn't, though. The ship that selects the dice for modification is the one that is doing the modifying. We have FAQ entries for OL and M9-G8 that make this clear. R7 doesn't work vs. OL because "you" choose. M9-G8 and Palp work against OL if on another ship because "you" refers to a different ship than the one involved in the attack. These are the FAQ precedents we have.

Captain Jonus defers the reroll selection by specifying "it" and not "you". Howlrunner does the same. Lowhhrick similarly can't use his ability to buff an OL-locked ship, because "the defender" adds the evade result.

Who chooses the dice to mod or who adds the redult is what dictates who is doing the modding. Those are the precedents we have. The origin of the ability isn't what matters.

You keep saying this but don't provide evidence. R7 cannot be used unless the ship carrying R7 is defending so not really illuminating. M9-G8 and Palp do work just fine if they are on a different ship. Howlrunner is the key question. Does Howlrunner let you reroll when attacking OL when OL has you locked. Is there an official answer on that question?

Edit: Until we get an official ruling on Howlrunner and OL, it's all just a guessing game as to how the designers want it to go. You're position makes sense if "cannot" overrules "may" but "must" overrules "cannot". Not sure if that exact linguistic hangup appears elsewhere in the rules. I can see FFG ruling it either way. Going to be confusing to most newer players regardless.

2 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

You keep saying this but don't provide evidence. R7 cannot be used unless the ship carrying R7 is defending so not really illuminating. M9-G8 and Palp do work just fine if they are on a different ship. Howlrunner is the key question. Does Howlrunner let you reroll when attacking OL when OL has you locked. Is there an official answer on that question?

M9-G8 and Palp rulings ARE the evidence.

There isn't an official FAQ on Howlrunner, Etahn or Jonus vs. OL because there has never been a contention that those things work vs. OL, and things generally don't get FAQed unless there's a disagreement or contradiction that requires they be FAQed. Consensus has been that they don't get around OL.

M9-G8 and OL vs. Palp both indicate that the "you" language as the determining factor. OL's entry explicitly says that Palp's ship does the modifying, as does M9-G8's entry. Remember when people were all like "lol FFG so dumb that they messed up the wording on Palp so he doesn't even work" when he got his errata? Turns out that given the rulings we have, it's highly likely that the wording choice was intentional and not an error.

People claiming that the wording is similar to Jonus/Howl/Etahn are ignoring that FFG is generally pretty specific about who does what and at what timing (and a lot of FAQ entries revolve around that), and the reason why Palp and M9-G8 got their clarifications was to make clear why they are exceptions to the general rule. And that exception is "you".

Again, I see your point and FFG might even agree with you but M9-G8 and Palp both work (when on another ship). You can't use that to convince me that Jonus doesn't work.

You argument can boil down to either or both:

1. Who chooses the die
2. Must vs may

Choosing which die to modify may or may not be sufficient difference. Must vs may could be sufficient difference. We don't know how it will be ruled.

FWIW, before the FAQ, I was 100% behind the idea that M9-G8 would not work when attacking OL and R7 would work. FFG decided differently.

That's the thing though-- we're not arguing whether or not Jonus should work. In fact, we would just be assuming that NOTHING worked if it weren't for M9-G8 and Palp giving examples of two things that work. That's due to:

"If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects." Page 2 of the rules reference.

The burden of proof isn't on us to convince you that Jonus doesn't work, because he explicitly doesn't work in this scenario due to the Golden Rule above. M9-G8 and Palp are listed as exceptions to limitations, and the justification given is the "you" language that dictates the source of the modification is the ship that they are on, not the attacking/defending ship. Jonus/Howl/Etahn do not share this language . That is why they do not work.

41 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

That's the thing though-- we're not arguing whether or not Jonus should work. In fact, we would just be assuming that NOTHING worked if it weren't for M9-G8 and Palp giving examples of two things that work. That's due to:

"If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects." Page 2 of the rules reference.

The burden of proof isn't on us to convince you that Jonus doesn't work, because he explicitly doesn't work in this scenario due to the Golden Rule above. M9-G8 and Palp are listed as exceptions to limitations, and the justification given is the "you" language that dictates the source of the modification is the ship that they are on, not the attacking/defending ship. Jonus/Howl/Etahn do not share this language . That is why they do not work.

I'll concede that your logic is convincing and well expressed, thank you. I also remember feeling the same way about M9 and R7 right up until FFG ruled it exactly the opposite. Currently though, I believe you have the correct interpretation.

Edit: How do feel about Lowhrick's ability and Omega Leader? OL has Miranda locked at attacks her. Can Lowhrick spend the reinforce and Miranda add an evade result?

40 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

That's the thing though-- we're not arguing whether or not Jonus should work. In fact, we would just be assuming that NOTHING worked if it weren't for M9-G8 and Palp giving examples of two things that work. That's due to:

"If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects." Page 2 of the rules reference.

The burden of proof isn't on us to convince you that Jonus doesn't work, because he explicitly doesn't work in this scenario due to the Golden Rule above. M9-G8 and Palp are listed as exceptions to limitations, and the justification given is the "you" language that dictates the source of the modification is the ship that they are on, not the attacking/defending ship. Jonus/Howl/Etahn do not share this language . That is why they do not work.

And that comes down to my argument again, Hown is a wave 1 pilot, jonus a wave 3 pilot, there were no reason to write something like that for friendly abilities at the time: "When another friendly ship at range 1 attacks with a secondary weapon, jonus may force it to rerrol up to 2 attack dice", as it was a friendly ability that the players would chose when to use in the end. I see FFG ruling either way, as it rulled with palpatine, and the fact that this post is so long proves that there is no clear anwser and it needs a FAQ

52 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I'll concede that your logic is convincing and well expressed, thank you. I also remember feeling the same way about M9 and R7 right up until FFG ruled it exactly the opposite. Currently though, I believe you have the correct interpretation.

Edit: How do feel about Lowhrick's ability and Omega Leader? OL has Miranda locked at attacks her. Can Lowhrick spend the reinforce and Miranda add an evade result?

With R7, you have to remember that defender modifies-->attacker modifies sequence rules have de facto been in play ever since things like Elusiveness and R7 Astro came out. The defender "modifies" the attacker's dice by choosing dice to reroll, which the attacker then rerolls. This interaction (locked ship modifying ANY dice) is explicitly forbidden by OL, and choosing dice that the attacker must reroll has been considered the defender modifying attack dice since those cards were released. It's been a looong time, and I don't remember the exact moment when the terminology was codified (and whether it was immediate or not), but that precedent has been around for at least as long as referring to modifying dice has been meaningful.

Lowhhrick cannot be used to buff a ship locked by OL, because the defender adds the dice result (and is thus modifying their own dice). If Low's ability read "If you do, you may add one [~>] result to the defender's roll." then he would work, but since the defender adds the evade he does not.

Edit: Card texts:

R7: " Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice."

Elusiveness: "When defending, you may receive 1 stress token to choose 1 attack die. The attacker must reroll that die."

That's the precedent for "ship choosing is the one doing the modifying," and why M9-G8/Palp specifying that "you" do the change is meaningful, because that removes the choice and thus the modification from the ships participating in the attack.

The test for whether a given ship is the source of a modification is to ask yourself:

If that ship were played by a separate player (still on my team), would I need to ask that player to perform the modification?

If "yes," you would need to ask, then the other ship is the source of the modification, so, e.g., it works with Snap Shot.

If "no," you would not need to ask because the ability just plain works, then you are the source of the modification, so, e.g., it does not work with Snap Shot.

Example of "yes" is M9-G8. You would, theoretically, have to ask the player of that ship to make the re-roll. Therefore you are not the source of the modification. Therefore it works with Snap Shot.

Example of "no" is Howlrunner. Howlrunner simply projects an aura that allows any friendly ship in that bubble to re-roll a die. You don't need to ask anybody to do it. Therefore, you are the source of the modification. Therefore it does not work with Snap Shot.

I haven't found an example yet where this conceptual framework breaks down.

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I haven't found an example yet where this conceptual framework breaks down.

Lowhhrick: You gotta ask him to spend his thingy so that you do a thingy, but you're still the one doing the important thingy to your dice.

4 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Lowhhrick: You gotta ask him to spend his thingy so that you do a thingy, but you're still the one doing the important thingy to your dice.

The actual modification part, though, you don't have to ask for.