Does Jonus give refills to Snap shot? I presume not, but thought I would check.

No

He could if he were worded to force the attacker to reroll the dice (M9-G8) rather than allow them to (Howlrunner).

But he isn't, so he can't.

On 6/14/2017 at 5:57 PM, digitalbusker said:

He could if he were worded to force the attacker to reroll the dice (M9-G8) rather than allow them to (Howlrunner).

But he isn't, so he can't.

Actually no Rules Ref Page 2 Golden Rules "If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects."

Cannot re-roll on snap shot is absolute, no other card can override that even if it were worded as mandatory.

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1 hour ago, Quarrel said:

It's not a matter of "force" versus "may". It's a matter of which ship is causing the reroll.

Snap Shot prohibits its own ship, and only its own ship, from modifying its attack roll. The FAQ ruling on M9-G8 is that the reroll comes from M9-G8's ship, not the attacking ship. However, Captain Jonus is worded so the reroll comes from the attacking ship.

And the way you can tell which ship is the source of the reroll is by looking to see whether the reroll is presented as optional for the ship whose dice are being modified.

( ETA: I get why my post you quoted was an incomplete explanation of this interaction, btw. I'm just trying to bring it back around full circle to the observation that "that ship must" abilities are sourced from the ship that has the ability, while "that ship may" abilities are sourced from the ship being granted the option.)

2 hours ago, Smitty said:

Actually no Rules Ref Page 2 Golden Rules "If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects."

Cannot re-roll on snap shot is absolute, no other card can override that even if it were worded as mandatory.

1 hour ago, Quarrel said:

It's not a matter of "force" versus "may". It's a matter of which ship is causing the reroll.

Snap Shot prohibits its own ship, and only its own ship, from modifying its attack roll. The FAQ ruling on M9-G8 is that the reroll comes from M9-G8's ship, not the attacking ship. However, Captain Jonus is worded so the reroll comes from the attacking ship.

What @Quarrel said. The cannot on Snap Shot isn't being overridden by M9-G8, it's being avoided.

22 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

What @Quarrel said. The cannot on Snap Shot isn't being overridden by M9-G8, it's being avoided.

Touche sir

M9G8 vs Omega Leader, source is the ship with M9G8 (ship attacking OL rerolls despite wording). R7 vs OL, source is the ship with R7 (cannot cause OL to reroll despite wording). Palpatine vs OL, source still Palpatine (modification works as long as the ship involved in the attack isn't Palp's ship itself). Jonus reroll vs OL, source is Jonus (reroll allowed despite wording).

All of these interactions are identical when dealing with Snap Shot instead of OL. So yes, Jonus will allow rerolls with Snap Shot. The wording on all of these cards refers to the ship who is rolling the dice physically (attackers only touch red dice, defenders only touch green) but in every single case the ruling is that the source of the modification is the ship with the ability that causes/allows the reroll, NOT the ship told to "roll". FFG has at least been consistent in this. The "you" referred to in Snap Shot is the ship performing the attack, and Jonus is not that ship.

The only argument for Jonus not to work is the peculiar wording on Jonus, but that wording is replicated on several other cards we DO have specific and consistent rulings for (mentioned above). It wouldn't make sense to ignore those and say Jonus works differently unless and until we receive a specific ruling to the contrary.

Howlrunner's reroll doesn't work against OL, and neither does Jonus's.

Fascinating. I certainly would go with completely unsupported assertions rather than multiple specific precedents. Let me try.

Vaccines don't work.

Yup, effective. Convincing to at least some portion of the population.

Both Howlrunner and Jonus are worded the same way:

"While [certain other friendly ship] is attacking [with certain weapon], IT may reroll [X] dice."

Jonus and Howlie might be the source of the ability , but they are not the source of the modification . The other friendly ship is granted the ability to reroll, so it is the source of the modification and OL will stop it if she has that ship locked.

"The attacker (a ship you have locked that is attacking) must reroll that die"

"The attacker (the ship attacking the one with the R7 astromech that this ship also has a target lock on) must reroll the chosen die"

It (friendly ship at Range 1 that is attacking with a secondary weapon) may reroll up to 2 die.

All 3 cards use the same format, instruct "the attacker" to reroll dice, and operate in the same way. If you would like to repeat assertion one more time while failing to support it feel free, but that is not compelling in any way. Provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise you haven't a leg to stand on. And no, simply repeating an assertion is not equivalent to providing evidence.

I get how one might think "the attacker must reroll" versus "the attacker may reroll" is a distinction without a difference, but they're not the same wording.

The best understanding we have right now, based on rulings involving Omega Leader's interactions with Zuckuss, Palpatine, R7, and M9-G8, is that "the attacker must reroll" is a modification that comes from the ship with that upgrade, while "the attacker may reroll" is granting an ability to the attacker that it can decide to use or not to modify its own dice, making the attacker the source of the modification.

Until somebody gets Frank on the record about Howlrunner and Omega Leader, that's the best we can do. If you're unconvinced, feel free to rule it however you like in environments where you get to rule things.

You are literally just making that up. We have zero rulings that suggest what you are saying, and the question of must/may is beside the point. The question is the source of the modification . Regardless of whether it says must or may, "you cannot modify" refers to the ship with the modification ability not the ship instructed to do the reroll. It's consistent, allowing rerolls with M9G8 (because the source of the modification is not the attacker) and NOT allowing rerolls with R7 (because the source of the modification is the ship target locked rather than OL) due to that distinction.

Another modification, that DOES say may, that ALSO works in the same way as M9G8 and R7..

.

All the cards/upgrades work the same way, unless and until they decide to FAQ it differently. You cannot just pick and choose which ones you want to use consistently with the rulings we have had so far, and which ones you want to use differently. This isn't even a case of having a single odd ruling that could be just a one off, we have several examples to pick from all of which are consistent with one another. As always FFG can rule however they want, they can add/change rules at their leisure, but we cannot.

I certainly agree that the wording is unclear. I don't think I would have ruled the same way, or at least I would have wanted to word the upgrades differently to reflect the intention, but FFG has not been unclear in the FAQ about this. The source of the modification is the ship with the ability, NOT the ship instructed to roll/reroll, despite the wording used.

6 minutes ago, KineticOperator said:

You are literally just making that up. We have zero rulings that suggest what you are saying, and the question of must/may is beside the point. The question is the source of the modification . Regardless of whether it says must or may, "you cannot modify" refers to the ship with the modification ability not the ship instructed to do the reroll. It's consistent, allowing rerolls with M9G8 (because the source of the modification is not the attacker) and NOT allowing rerolls with R7 (because the source of the modification is the ship target locked not OL) due to that distinction.

Another modification, that DOES say may, that ALSO works in the same way as M9G8 and R7..

.

All the cards/upgrades work the same way, unless and until they decide to FAQ it differently. You cannot just pick and choose which ones you want to use consistently with the rulings we have had so far, and which ones you want to use differently. This isn't even a case of having a single odd ruling that could be just a one off, we have several examples to pick from all of which are consistent with one another. As always FFG can rule however they want, they can add/change rules at their leisure, but we cannot.

Palp works specifically because it's his ship doing the modifying and Snap Shot only blocks the ship it's on from modifying; it's nothing to do with may vs must.

The problem here is that the FAQed intention of the rules simply doesn't actually match the writing of the game when it comes to the best precedent, which is OL. It's inconsistent. SO it's confusing.

"When using M9-G8, the source of the reroll is the ship equipped with M9-G8, not the ship attacking. For example, if a ship is attacking with Snap Shot, a ship equipped with M9-G8, can cause that ship to reroll a die."

M9-G8 is the source of the re-roll because the ship with M9-G8 is choosing which die to re-roll and then forcing the ship to re-roll it. This is the same as R7 astromech, Elusiveness, and Zuckuss and in all of those cases, the ship choosing the die and forcing the re-roll is the source of the modification. Jonus provides the ability to re-roll a die, but he does not pick a die and force another ship to re-roll that die, therefore he is not the source of the modification.

If my team-mate in a match has one of my ships target locked with M9-G8, he can force me to reroll one of my attack dice whether I want to or not. If my team-mate is flying Jonus, Howlrunner, or Esege nearby, he can't force me to do anything since all of those abilities only give my ship the option to modify its dice.

KineticOperator, you need to calm down a bit. It matters not your feelings on the matter, the rules are the rules and everything others have stated on the topic is correct by letter of the law supported by FAQs in most cases and in other cases simply by comparison to wording.

The source of the reroll depends on the wording. Jonus and Howlrunner target friendly ship. M9G8 targets a dice.

Therefore the source of the reroll for Jonus and Howlrunner is the target ship, while the source of the reroll for M9G8 is M9G8 itself, etc.

There are a few things that can modify Snap Shot, there are a few things that can modify dice vs or from Omega Leader even if the target ship is locked by Omega Leader.

There are exceptions to many things.

Unguided Rockets have the most solid wording though. Nothing in the game can modify Unguided Rockets except the ship's own focus token for its regular focus token effect.

" Your attack dice can be modified only by spending a focus token for its standard effect."

I'm calm, and I'll stop. If you're determined to ignore the FAQ rulings despite having them demonstrated repeatedly and the relevant cards quoted verbatim, no amount of evidence will change your mind.

It is like @joeshmoe554 said:
While determining the source of the modification, it doesn't matter the can or cannot. It doesn't matter the may nor the must. The source is determined by which ship chooses the dice results to be rerolled/changed/added.

Every FaQ entry is consistent with this, and that's why Palp and M9G8 are the only ones to work against Omega Leader (while they are not involved in the attack, i mean).

On 7/26/2017 at 1:42 AM, Willy Jarque said:

It is like @joeshmoe554 said:
While determining the source of the modification, it doesn't matter the can or cannot. It doesn't matter the may nor the must. The source is determined by which ship chooses the dice results to be rerolled/changed/added.

Every FaQ entry is consistent with this, and that's why Palp and M9G8 are the only ones to work against Omega Leader (while they are not involved in the attack, i mean).

Thank you. That is the first logical argument I have seen, and it's a good one. The contrary argument is this:
If Jonus blows up (or loses his pilot ability) do you still get the reroll? If not, then what was really the source of the reroll, the ship shooting or Jonus? Rephrased, if Jonus isn't the source of the reroll, why don't you keep it once he is gone?

I do wish they would give a specific answer, and maybe while they are at it they can enumerate their thought process so we know what to do with the next question. In the meanwhile it's a fairly corner case (only Jonus, Howlrunner, and Serissu AFAIK). If swarms ever come back, however, it will be an important answer to have.

On 7/24/2017 at 7:40 PM, KineticOperator said:

Fascinating. I certainly would go with completely unsupported assertions rather than multiple specific precedents. Let me try.

Vaccines don't work.

Yup, effective. Convincing to at least some portion of the population.

This, right here, is when you started acting like a ****. May I kindly suggest you don't do that, anymore?

5 hours ago, Achowat said:

This, right here, is when you started acting like a ****. May I kindly suggest you don't do that, anymore?

Good point, well taken. My apologies.

13 hours ago, KineticOperator said:

Thank you. That is the first logical argument I have seen, and it's a good one. The contrary argument is this:
If Jonus blows up (or loses his pilot ability) do you still get the reroll? If not, then what was really the source of the reroll, the ship shooting or Jonus? Rephrased, if Jonus isn't the source of the reroll, why don't you keep it once he is gone?

I do wish they would give a specific answer, and maybe while they are at it they can enumerate their thought process so we know what to do with the next question. In the meanwhile it's a fairly corner case (only Jonus, Howlrunner, and Serissu AFAIK). If swarms ever come back, however, it will be an important answer to have.

The source of the modification may not be the same as the source of the ability allowing that modification.

Jonus is X allows Y to modify his dice. Modification: Reroll

M9G8 is X modifies Y's 1 Dice. Modification: Reroll

Jonus allows the modification but does not do it.

Howlrunner allows the ship nearby to do a modification, Howlrunner does not do the modification

M9G8 is modifying a result itself. M9G8 chooses which dice to reroll

Palpatine is modifying a result itself. Palpatine chooses a result that is applied to one dice of the player's choice, through Palpatine. The ship that rolled the dice has nothing to do with the modification.