6 hours ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

Honestly, this just makes me worry that the Crab won't be as strong as the Lion hahaha. I hope all the clans are roughly equal in terms of balance coming out of the core set. That would mean that the Crab's abilities will be equivalent to this but, ****, it seems unlikely that the Crab will be able to measure up to that considering how strong they made Lion.

Hopefully, Crab matches the Lion's military strength and then, instead of an honor alternate win strategy, they are given benefits for successfully defending.

We'll see in a month or so!

What I would REALLY like to see from the Crab is a character similar to Kakita Kaezin - but on a Yasuki. If you are in a Political conflict this character will challenge another player's chosen character in a Pol duel. If this character wins both players choose 1 of their characters to remain at the conflict, and the conflict type changes to MIL.

Basically it is the Yasuki buying everyone off so they leave the room and you can beat the snot out of the poor guy left behind lol

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

What I would REALLY like to see from the Crab is a character similar to Kakita Kaezin - but on a Yasuki. If you are in a Political conflict this character will challenge another player's chosen character in a Pol duel. If this character wins both players choose 1 of their characters to remain at the conflict, and the conflict type changes to MIL.

Basically it is the Yasuki buying everyone off so they leave the room and you can beat the snot out of the poor guy left behind lol

I could see it being a force (Military) dueler as well. It makes sense thematically for the Crab that certain Crab samurai would thrive in one-on-one combat to the death like Crane would, but for different reasons.

I do expect that Crab will be a little more balanced military/politically than Lion will be. A huge part of the Crab military/culture is an emphasis on resource management and the obligations that other clans have in supporting them. I can see the Crab champion having some kind of ring of Earth shenanigans as well because it plays into the themes of both Crab sustainability and Yasuki dishonor. I definitely think mill will be apart of this game at some point because it's not an auto loss. My hope is that it starts as a Crab theme before Scorpion. Fate manipulation also seems to be a Crab theme in the few cards previewed. Both the Tetsubo and Reprieve attachments.

Yeah Jade Tetsubo and Reprieve both look like the Crab are looking for deaths in conflicts, and are more prepared to die than the Lion who will simply look to win the conflict and go home.

Speaking of mill - with the way Fate works, I think people will be going through their decks fast... I think being able to mil will be more effective if you can play a stalling deck like the Crab would want, making your opponent's characters all fade away or be discarded without entering play while you still stand to take the win in the end.

I am imagining that Crab dishonor would be some kind of stalling/defensive deck. Discarding lots from your hand to force you to draw more cards. Also with the fate mechanic and cards like Tetsubo I could see something like you use the Tetsubo on someone which then gives your opponent back two fate. Then some Yasuki card gives your opponent the option of giving you unused fate or losing honor.

I think Scorpion Dishonor would be more straightforward and less about giving your opponent choices. Like manipulate their honor dial and then punish them for having the wrong bid. Straight up honor stealing so that they can afford to draw more cards for themselves, because that seemed to be a theme that FFG expressed with Scorpion (just drawing lots of cards).

52 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Speaking of mill - with the way Fate works, I think people will be going through their decks fast... I think being able to mil will be more effective if you can play a stalling deck like the Crab would want, making your opponent's characters all fade away or be discarded without entering play while you still stand to take the win in the end.

Just a note you may have missed. If either deck is empty you lose 5 honor and reshuffle your discard pile to form a new deck.

thx I did miss that.

50 minutes ago, shosuko said:

thx I did miss that.

That doesn't mean milling can't exist, just that it's part of a dishonour win condition.

25 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

That doesn't mean milling can't exist, just that it's part of a dishonour win condition.

Actually I think that makes it more likely that milling will exist. When it's an all-or-nothing win/loss, milling is not that fun to play against. When it's a hefty penalty but not a game-ender, it's just one more strategy to keep in mind. Tentatively, I think this is a good move on FFG's part.

2 hours ago, MoZi said:

I am imagining that Crab dishonor would be some kind of stalling/defensive deck. Discarding lots from your hand to force you to draw more cards. Also with the fate mechanic and cards like Tetsubo I could see something like you use the Tetsubo on someone which then gives your opponent back two fate. Then some Yasuki card gives your opponent the option of giving you unused fate or losing honor.

I think Scorpion Dishonor would be more straightforward and less about giving your opponent choices. Like manipulate their honor dial and then punish them for having the wrong bid. Straight up honor stealing so that they can afford to draw more cards for themselves, because that seemed to be a theme that FFG expressed with Scorpion (just drawing lots of cards).

I sort of like the idea of the Yasuki liking holdings, to really push that idea of the merchant idea behind the family. They could also be very 'closed' in their conflict manipulation compared to the Crane to represent wheeling and dealing, kunning, or smuggling. The family doesn't really have as much dealings with the Shadowland as the rest of the Crab and could much more proactive too.

Feel free to reuse some of the old Yasuki art, like the experienced Makoto.

@agarrett: Milling is rather hard to balance out. Either it can be essentially too little or way too much. Right now, with a player buying four cards a turn, it would take 10 turns to get that loss in honor. Some factions like the Lion might go through the deck more quickly but one like the Phoenix or Crab might take much longer (i.e. holdings).

9 minutes ago, agarrett said:

Actually I think that makes it more likely that milling will exist. When it's an all-or-nothing win/loss, milling is not that fun to play against. When it's a hefty penalty but not a game-ender, it's just one more strategy to keep in mind. Tentatively, I think this is a good move on FFG's part.

I enjoy the severe honor loss for milling, insta-loss mills are a bit sad.

My early prediction is that Unicorn will be the most card consuming clan, and probably easiest to mill...if you can survive the Calvary charge.

Without having played yet, but with what we've seen in this preview, as a Lion Clan player I would bid low, try to grab the earth ring every turn and rely on the strength of my dynasty deck over grabbing up huge amounts of cards from my conflict deck by giving up my precious honor. I'd do everything in my power to ensure I could keep my honor higher than my opponent. Art of War reinforces this style of play in my opinion. I liked the preview, Lion has probably always been my 2nd favorite clan to play (of course, there aren't any I dislike).

20 minutes ago, HirumaShigure said:

Without having played yet, but with what we've seen in this preview, as a Lion Clan player I would bid low, try to grab the earth ring every turn and rely on the strength of my dynasty deck over grabbing up huge amounts of cards from my conflict deck by giving up my precious honor. I'd do everything in my power to ensure I could keep my honor higher than my opponent. Art of War reinforces this style of play in my opinion. I liked the preview, Lion has probably always been my 2nd favorite clan to play (of course, there aren't any I dislike).

I think you're dead on - unless you're like 10 honor up on your opponent you'll definitely be bidding conservatively. This doesn't just influence their ability to draw conflict cards - but also their ability to duel. We were talking before about how the Lion would be able to duel against the Crane since their stats are similar - but I think the Lion would not be willing to risk the honor on their bid...

The Crane would be more likely to use their honor advantage to draw more conflict cards or win a critical duel. We'll have to see how these play out live when the game releases - and also as other clan cards are released -but I agree with your opinion on Lion and drawing.

I'm super excited to see more Scorpion cards. With Bayushi Manipulator and I Can Swim already messing with the honor bids, and Lion being cautious already without these other effects, I think we'll see a VERY interesting game on several levels.

1 hour ago, HirumaShigure said:

Without having played yet, but with what we've seen in this preview, as a Lion Clan player I would bid low, try to grab the earth ring every turn and rely on the strength of my dynasty deck over grabbing up huge amounts of cards from my conflict deck by giving up my precious honor. I'd do everything in my power to ensure I could keep my honor higher than my opponent. Art of War reinforces this style of play in my opinion. I liked the preview, Lion has probably always been my 2nd favorite clan to play (of course, there aren't any I dislike).

The point about watching your honour cannot be emphasized enough. As a Crane player, this is how I attempt to beat the Lion. Get ahead in honour first, then put Lion to a decision: Do they accept the disadvantage of nullified character abilities, and sink even lower to gain card advantage? Or, do they try to race to get ahead again?

- If they race, they diminish their military conflict ability (less cards) in an attempt to reassert control via military conflict. In a sense, a restricted military effort until they push ahead in honour and then surge ahead once their character abilities 'awaken' once more.

- If they accept the disadvantage, then _maybe_ the card advantage is enough of a boost to offset the loss of character abilities. At the same time, if they continue to bid more for Cards, the separation in honour should allow the Crane to start to abuse Dueling against them.

It seems like other honour based clans can pose more of a challenge to Lion than the more pure military/lower honour could. For the latter, Lion still gets to play into their strength (bolstered by honour military), even while giving up card advantage by default. This is what they expect to face most often. But for the former, Lion might have to re-establish their strength first, or expect that their card advantage makes up for their natural focus.

I too wonder if being able to 'chump block' and counter with Political Conflicts would be considered stronger than a singular focus on military? The political skill seems harder to boost, and Lion still seems very capable of breaking provinces at a higher rate, regardless of mid level/low level defender road bumps.

And I think thematically this shows why the Lion don't just roll up with their huge ole army and stomp the Crane at any time as others have asked, given that they're historical rivals in Old5R.

Can they do it? Sure, but is it worth the hassle? And can they do it and win convincingly? I doubt another clan will contest Lion for Masters of War but they'll have other ways to mess with us.

Since Lion are lacking politically, I think a good tactic is just using your political conflict as an opportunity to poke a province with a chump. You're bound to lose but at least you'll know what province abilities you'll be facing when you follow up with a military conflict on the following turn

1 hour ago, Chron73 said:

Since Lion are lacking politically, I think a good tactic is just using your political conflict as an opportunity to poke a province with a chump. You're bound to lose but at least you'll know what province abilities you'll be facing when you follow up with a military conflict on the following turn

I'm not sure that this gains you much in the exchange? If a player is using Political Conflict to keep pace, then the objective should be to break Lion provinces so as to keep pace.

If Lion are playing to dominate military conflict (likely), then a Clan that focuses on Politics will have to break provinces at the same rate to keep pace. However, Political skill does not seem to be as easy to manipulate/stack, so the Crane player (for example) has to attempt to keep pace with a less abundant/prevalent mechanic. Granted, this inherent limitation to Political Conflicts applies to both sides, and Lion seem to have a weakness to Political Conflicts, but I think the point is that there is a disparity between the two conflict types so it's not a straight forward trade.

Add to this that Dueling seems to be Military based, and it seems tricky in terms of slowing Lion's tempo enough to be able to overtake them. Right now, I think the best thing an honour clan can do against Lion is to out honour them first. Then worry about countering their now weakened military. Another way may be to manipulate their fate so they can't sustain a large enough army to be able to overwhelm.

38 minutes ago, Anemura said:

I'm not sure that this gains you much in the exchange? If a player is using Political Conflict to keep pace, then the objective should be to break Lion provinces so as to keep pace.

I believe he meant for Lion themselves. Scout during their political conflict with a lone chump to probe provinces and force a defense or a free ring. There's even cards seemingly designed to do so like Deathseeker.

5 minutes ago, Reiga said:

I believe he meant for Lion themselves. Scout during their political conflict with a lone chump to probe provinces and force a defense or a free ring. There's even cards seemingly designed to do so like Deathseeker.

Ah, that makes much more sense. I have misread Chron73's post entirely. Yes, I agree, probing with a character via Political conflict could work out for the Lion.

27 minutes ago, Anemura said:

Ah, that makes much more sense. I have misread Chron73's post entirely. Yes, I agree, probing with a character via Political conflict could work out for the Lion.

It seems like revealing provinces is going to be super key in this game as well. Commiting full force to an unknown province could be disastrous. I can even imagine people trying to line up their last turn so they have both attacks on the stronghold. Send one guy in first just to scout then prepare for the next fight. Will be interested to see if they make any anti scouting provinces too like, "When revealed if your opponent only assigned one attacker they sacrifice a character not attacking." Or something painful like that :P. So hyped.

One area for consideration I was thinking about....with the Lion's focus on playing a lot of cards from their dynasty deck they will probably not be passing first very often. This will be giving their opponents extra fate more often than not.

Will the extra fate almost every turn for their opponent be a big hindrance? Will a Lion player have to make up for it by using some of their men to politically attack provinces for any fate on a ring?

Taking that one step further - is that how clans like the Dragon and Phoenix will handle the Lion? A few powerful characters/spells to hold the Lion at bay while messing with the rings to gain a significant fate advantage over the Lion.

I'm guessing with the Lion I would often want the Air or Earth ring for honor/conflict cards. But I also need fate. And messing with the rings won't make me happy.

I hope we see more cards like Fallen in Battle, that allow us to pitch our characters for value.

Because right now I see a ton of synergy with Kitsu Spiritcaller and Toturi.

You have a Kitsu Spiritcaller attack, summon Toturi from the grave, win the fight by 5 or more, then respond by killing toturi before he gets shuffled back into the deck as that is at the END of combat, Fallen in Battle is just when you calculate a winner.

Heck, if you had two Kitsu Spiritcallers then you could throw one at the first province, drop toturi and dominate by 5 or more, cash in on the ring effect twice while breaking the province, THEN Fallen in Battle him to ensure he is in the grave so that he can be dropped in the next conflict when the second Kitsu Spiritcaller attacks. This can possibly lead to multiple Toturi uses and profiting from 4 ring effects in one turn.

It's not guaranteed to be a fluid strategy yet, but its on the radar for me. Reminds me of my old "Goju Plot" ninja deck with shadow dragon being the payoff.

You can use Kitsu Spiritcaller from safety of home. She doesn't need to attack. Which means that with Toturi in your grave, she can potentially turn any single attack or defence per turn into "as if Toturi was there".

*anxiously awaits the next clan spoils and story*

2 hours ago, WHW said:

You can use Kitsu Spiritcaller from safety of home. She doesn't need to attack. Which means that with Toturi in your grave, she can potentially turn any single attack or defence per turn into "as if Toturi was there".

Wow Kitsu's power level just skyrocketed in my mind! She can bow from home basically bringing in a conflict character AND since she's bowed at home you can claim water ring and immediately unbow her for a political defense!