2 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I understand why people think Tutori's ability is boring or unoriginal - since he and Hotaru have the exact same ability - BUT this is core set and they are trying to set a balanced standard. I think it works well. If anything - I think Crane players should feel disappointed in Hotaru who doesn't have Sashimono to maximize it. Toturi is FAR superior to Hotaru even though the abilities are the same because of this card being in-clan.

Hoturi can be buffed much more easily by Way of the Crane though. And you don't really get much use out of Sashimono on Toturi(up to one turn) unless you use some tricks.

New card on Team Covenant channel! Looks to me like a dinasty card.

Venerable Historian

2 Fate

Mil: - Pol: 1 Glo: 3

Courtier. Scholar.

Action: While this character is participating in a conflict, if you are more honorable than your opponent - honor this character.

1 minute ago, BordOne said:

Hoturi can be buffed much more easily by Way of the Crane though. And you don't really get much use out of Sashimono on Toturi(up to one turn) unless you use some tricks.

Toturi's buff off Way of the Lion is killer too, though not as long lasting as Hotaru off of WotC, admittedly.

But that is 2 times he is in battle, which means 2 ring activations on attack and 1 on defense... I think that can be very powerful compared to Hotaru who would only get to use her ability once.

3 minutes ago, BordOne said:

I agree with you. Honored General is more expensive than him though. Also honoring a character is not much problem for Crane

Yeah But Honored general gives all the other guys in his army +1 military as well, and i believe Lion is close to a 3 average on thier military bushi. meaning even a 5 for Keisen is a stretch and dangerous. do you assume say 5 to 3 that you will win so bid 1 or go with the insured win of 4, you could lose 3 honor to send the rest of the army home, and still lose the province with SH, pumps and such for the 1 guy lion has left

19 minutes ago, williamobrien said:

It was retconned a bunch of times. The art of A Final Duel clearly shows Toturi with a clear shot at just killing him fair and square. The (non-canon) Scorpion novel goes with the backstab. Imperial Histories 1 just says "Shoju is killed in a duel with Toturi".

There was a time, for a period, when it seemed like there was a effort to undermine the accomplishments of the 'heroic' characters of the Clan Wars via retconning. It happened to Toturi by sort of trying to make it seem like his accomplishments weren't due to his own talents, or that he was actually secretly kind of dishonorable. It happened to Shoju, an ostensibly tragic character who tried to defy fate only to become its unwitting pawn, the moment they first started shoving Ambition in there and bringing a cloud over his motives.

I think the biggest victim of this by far is probably Togashi Yokuni, who was more or less turned into an outright villain over the years.

There are a lot of reasons why an author or authors might see fit to do this, and I wouldn't try and guess which ones apply here, but it did happen. The stories we know about these characters aren't the stories about them that originally existed.

But WotC is just that... You can't double honor - but if you can get Tutori honored then WotL far exceeds Hotaru's potential.

At the moment we only have the two clans to compare, but I'll admit my initial impression is that Lion might be slightly weaker than Crane. I think Lion will have no problems winning a military conflict every turn - heck, they probably won't have a problem breaking a province militarily every turn. But I don't see them being able to do the same politically. Crane is in the same position on the political battles, but I think they have a few more military tools when it comes down to it.

Of course, both also need to defend, and once again I think Crane has a few more defensive tools than Lion does, where almost everything is a bonus on the attack. Taking a province every turn won't help if you lose two.

Now, thinking deeper, Lion has several good keys off of winning battles, honoring people and keeping them around. Their honored people gain their glory bonus to military and politics, so that might be a viable strategy to change the tempo and take two provinces in one turn, or defend two while still taking one. I don't know how repeatable that would be, but it might not have to be that repeatable.

Suffice to say, I'm looking forward to more previews, and also to a Lion / Crane match just to see if my thoughts are right...

Just now, shosuko said:

But WotC is just that... You can't double honor - but if you can get Tutori honored then WotL far exceeds Hotaru's potential.

Oooooooooooo... 'double honor' (ing!!!)

now that would be a matter of concern.... though Crab might certainly have an Event card for it.

Yes!!!!

3 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Yeah But Honored general gives all the other guys in his army +1 military as well, and i believe Lion is close to a 3 average on thier military bushi. meaning even a 5 for Keisen is a stretch and dangerous. do you assume say 5 to 3 that you will win so bid 1 or go with the insured win of 4, you could lose 3 honor to send the rest of the army home, and still lose the province with SH, pumps and such for the 1 guy lion has left

Against Lion you probably do bid 1. Does he bid 2 and cause a two point honor swing and cause your action to do nothing? Or does he bid 3 and cause a 4 point honor swing and win your duel sending Kaizen home. Either way you may now have more honor than him shutting down some of his guys/abilities.

8 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Toturi's buff off Way of the Lion is killer too, though not as long lasting as Hotaru off of WotC, admittedly.

8 minutes ago, shosuko said:

But that is 2 times he is in battle, which means 2 ring activations on attack and 1 on defense... I think that can be very powerful compared to Hotaru who would only get to use her ability once.

I concede Toturi seems to have better in- faction synergy.

7 minutes ago, Akodo_Metuki said:

Yeah But Honored general gives all the other guys in his army +1 military as well, and i believe Lion is close to a 3 average on thier military bushi. meaning even a 5 for Keisen is a stretch and dangerous. do you assume say 5 to 3 that you will win so bid 1 or go with the insured win of 4, you could lose 3 honor to send the rest of the army home, and still lose the province with SH, pumps and such for the 1 guy lion has left

Remember about large power spike between 3 cost and 4 cost characters. Crane have many ways to deny Lion the tricks though and Lion will probably bid low to keep honor advantage

1 minute ago, BordOne said:

Remember about large power spike between 3 cost and 4 cost characters. Crane have many ways to deny Lion the tricks though

Kaizen is going to destroy Lion swarm if played right. might even be worth giving up honor on crane's part. Though if memory serves he just sends home, not bow and send home.

Just now, RandomJC said:

Kaizen is going to destroy Lion swarm if played right. might even be worth giving up honor on crane's part. Though if memory serves he just sends home, not bow and send home.

Well sending Lion home on military is the same as bowing them

Just now, RandomJC said:

Kaizen is going to destroy Lion swarm if played right. might even be worth giving up honor on crane's part. Though if memory serves he just sends home, not bow and send home.

I'm fairly certain he does just send home, but still that shuts down their one military attack for the turn

6 minutes ago, Tetsuro said:

There are a lot of reasons why an author or authors might see fit to do this, and I wouldn't try and guess which ones apply here, but it did happen. The stories we know about these characters aren't the stories about them that originally existed.

Its better for the storyline actually (for me).

I remember the original way of clan rpg supplements and their stories and footnotes. The same story being told from different point of view and mostly blatantly contradicting one another makes you as a reader decide or think if any of em are true.

thats why you can never trust an Ikoma.

Just now, BordOne said:

Well sending Lion home on military is the same as bowing them

Just now, JRosen9 said:

I'm fairly certain he does just send home, but still that shuts down their one military attack for the turn

These are true things. but even a bunch of dinks on pol can be the difference between taking the ring and breaking a province.

2 hours ago, JRosen9 said:

I think this has us missing two lion cards. The full art/text of Ikoma Prodigy and card number 73 which is a lion character that has 2 or 3 cost and a name that comes after deathseeker if 2 cost or before kitsu spirit caller if 3 cost. All of their conflict cards are spoiled. This gives both Crane and Lion a 14/10 split between dynasty and conflict

I count just 8 Conflict cards, where do you get 10 from?

2 minutes ago, Eu8L1ch said:

I count just 8 Conflict cards, where do you get 10 from?

Here are the 10 cards I have

1. Vengeful Oathkeeper
2. Master of the Spear
3. Guidance of the Ancestors
4. Honored Blade
5. Sashimono
6. Ready for Battle
7. Stand your Ground
8. Way of the Lion
9. For Greater Glory
10. Strength in Numbers

Vengeful Oathkeeper
Master of the Spear
Guidance of the Ancestors
Honored Blade
Sashimono
Ready for Battle
Stand Your Ground
Way of the Lion
For Greater Glory
Strength in Numbers

13 minutes ago, shosuko said:

But that is 2 times he is in battle, which means 2 ring activations on attack and 1 on defense... I think that can be very powerful compared to Hotaru who would only get to use her ability once.

That is assuming you will win the conflict on defense. Against the two clans we have seen, I do not think its possible to do so in either conflict unless you specifically hold back for defense.

4 minutes ago, Eu8L1ch said:

I count just 8 Conflict cards, where do you get 10 from?

Ready for Battle

Honored Blade

Vengeful Oathkeeper

Sashimono

For Greater Glory

Strength in Numbers

Guidance of the Ancestors

Stand Your Ground

Way of the Lion

Master of the Spear

Also here is #73

Thanks guys, missed a couple

Nice spoiler, pretty interesting guy.

Lion is now complete. Somebody start testing so we can see how Crane and Lion fare against each other.

3 minutes ago, Doji Makoto said:

Lion is now complete. Somebody start testing so we can see how Crane and Lion fare against each other.

Almost. I believe Half of Ikoma Prodigy is still missing

Just now, JRosen9 said:

Almost. I believe Half of Ikoma Prodigy is still missing

Based on a super blurry image and half image from the fan we guess it might be a 1 Fate 0/1 with the ability:

"Whenever 1 or more fate is placed on this character, gain an honor"