Just now, BordOne said:

Yup.

And also is it just me or Way of the Lion sucks when compared to Banzai? not complaining

maybe, but think about what they would do combined! +(8+base mil) for 2 cards.

Just now, fyrm said:

maybe, but think about what they would do combined! +(8+base mil) for 2 cards.

Why is it base+8? it should just be base+4

1 minute ago, Kakita Shiro said:

Depends on the character's base Military stat. Way of the Lion is far better for Toturi than any mere Banzai. =)

Ofc but it seems that right now it is better only on him which is what I was pointing out It might be also slightly advantageous not to spend 1 honor tho

I think the gat between the two clans is much smaller than people think. The lion can break military a province every turn, but crane can do so politically. Crane also have an easy time honoring their characters so the honor gap will be really small. I see this match up as a province per turn and whoever gets the first player token on the last round wins.

34 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

For Greater Glory: You swarm a province and can keep those guys around for another turn? For 1 fate? It is a bit narrower because of the bushi keyword but I still expect it to used quite often and in a variety of decks.

There are about 11 Lion Bushi characters from the spoilers we've seen so far. Very few of their card do not have it. Breaking a Province is the harder condition to match here.

Quote

Possible Lion archetypes: Swarm, Honor Running, Midrange, Reanimator (bringing back characters from the discard pile)

The Swarm and Reanimator stuff they've shown off seem really really strong.

I'm fascinated by the calls of toturi being weak mechanically. And wonder if the clans were reversed if people would still call his the weak card.

Just now, JRosen9 said:

Why is it base+8? it should just be base+4

Banzai gives +2, or more likely +4. WotL doubles. so you Banzai first, pay the honor for +4, then double. so +4 from Banzai, then +4+base from Way, total +8+base for 2 cards.

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

I'm fascinated by the calls of toturi being weak mechanically. And wonder if the clans were reversed if people would still call his the weak card.

I think people were just expecting a little more variety to his ability outside of a Military copy of what is on Hotaru.

Just now, fyrm said:

Banzai gives +2, or more likely +4. WotL doubles. so you Banzai first, pay the honor for +4, then double. so +4 from Banzai, then +4+base from Way, total +8+base for 2 cards.

WotL only doubles base strength so it won't double Banzai or the lion stronghold bonus

Just now, RandomJC said:

I'm fascinated by the calls of toturi being weak mechanically. And wonder if the clans were reversed if people would still call his the weak card.

Toturi is just a bit weaker mechanically because he cannot be as easily honored as Hotaru. But the Lion have a way to cheat him in for a conflict so overall I would say equal.

1 minute ago, blackheartz said:

I think the gat between the two clans is much smaller than people think. The lion can break military a province every turn, but crane can do so politically. Crane also have an easy time honoring their characters so the honor gap will be really small. I see this match up as a province per turn and whoever gets the first player token on the last round wins.

I think it's going come down to whether or not one player sees the cards necessary to win a second conflict in a turn. Mostly, it depends on whether or not there are +Political attachments other than the new Ancestral Guidance or Crane's Latest Fashion the Lion player can use. Crane already know about swords and Banzai.

1 minute ago, fyrm said:

Banzai gives +2, or more likely +4. WotL doubles. so you Banzai first, pay the honor for +4, then double. so +4 from Banzai, then +4+base from Way, total +8+base for 2 cards.

yeah but I think the "base strength" refers to printed value

Just now, blackheartz said:

But the Lion have a way to cheat him in for a conflict so overall I would say equal.

Tactics!

1 minute ago, JRosen9 said:

WotL only doubles base strength so it won't double Banzai or the lion stronghold bonus

Just now, BordOne said:

yeah but I think the "base strength" refers to printed value

Right. Reading is fundamental!

4 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'm fascinated by the calls of toturi being weak mechanically. And wonder if the clans were reversed if people would still call his the weak card.

Well nobody did. People are just disappointed he doesn't have a new ability.

edit: I stand corrected xD

1 minute ago, blackheartz said:

Toturi is just a bit weaker mechanically because he cannot be as easily honored as Hotaru. But the Lion have a way to cheat him in for a conflict so overall I would say equal.

Almost all the complaints I've seen is how he is a reflection of Hotaru.

1 minute ago, blackheartz said:

Toturi is just a bit weaker mechanically because he cannot be as easily honored as Hotaru. But the Lion have a way to cheat him in for a conflict so overall I would say equal.

My first impression was that Toturi was the superior card because Lion seems to have higher synergy with the bushi trait than Crane do to courtier. Then I realised Hotaru can take easier advantage of the high glory. I think they are probably quite valanced.

4 minutes ago, fyrm said:

Right. Reading is fundamental!

Which means Way of the Lion is worse I wonder tho will glory bonus count as base strenght? it probably won't right

3 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

I think people were just expecting a little more variety to his ability outside of a Military copy of what is on Hotaru.

Eh, my point was more that if the clans were reversed in reveal, it'd be people complaining about Hotaru being a pol copy of Toturi.

I am wrong in calling out mechanically weak, which I saw on the discord. but I do think it's unfair to call it boring.

Toturi did defeat Bayushi Shoyu in single combat, considered at the time to be one of the Empire's best swordsman.

He's never been a pushover when it comes to dueling.

11 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Yup.

And also is it just me or Way of the Lion sucks when compared to Banzai? not complaining

Depends on the situation. In a vacuum Banzai grants a bigger skill bonus. However, if you have an Obstinate Recruit in play you may not be in a position to use Banzai, as the honor loss could cause problems for you elsewhere.

Just now, Tetsuro said:

Toturi did defeat Bayushi Shoyu in single combat, considered at the time to be one of the Empire's best swordsman.

He's never been a pushover when it comes to dueling.

If I remember that story correctly, didn't Shoju see the error of his ways and purposely break his sword in the throne. If I am remembering correctly, that means Toturi's great dueling is taking down unarmed men

9 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

There are about 11 Lion Bushi characters from the spoilers we've seen so far. Very few of their card do not have it. Breaking a Province is the harder condition to match here.

The Swarm and Reanimator stuff they've shown off seem really really strong.

For the conflict card, I was thinking as a whole like other clans or just the idea of a keyword versus generic personalities.

For Reanimator, the deck will probably need a cheap, reliable way to putting personalities into the discard pile. Either a personality or conflict card that can dig. Yes, people can discard personalities at the end of the turn but that's awfully slow, you're limited by what you draw, and you have to wait for the end of the turn.

1 minute ago, JRosen9 said:

If I remember that story correctly, didn't Shoju see the error of his ways and purposely break his sword in the throne. If I am remembering correctly, that means Toturi's great dueling is taking down unarmed men

Dishonored, unarmed men.

1 minute ago, Kubernes said:

For the conflict card, I was thinking as a whole like other clans or just the idea of a keyword versus generic personalities.

For Reanimator, the deck will probably need a cheap, reliable way to putting personalities into the discard pile. Either a personality or conflict card that can dig. Yes, people can discard personalities at the end of the turn but that's awfully slow, you're limited by what you draw, and you have to wait for the end of the turn.

Remember every personality you buy is also soon to be discarded. I think it might be viable without the outlet.