1 hour ago, williamobrien said:

Master of the Spear is basically never actually purchased, but it's a great guy to bring out for free with the Spiritcaller or Eiji and you don't have Brawler. He's also hilarious against Kaizen. You do have to sequence his action correctly though. I lost a game today where I messed up with him. Probably the first mid-cost guy to get trimmed once something good comes in the expansions, but I think he's better than Beiona (who is terrible with the resurrect people) and it's gotta cost 3 or less for Eiji.

How do you get master of the spear into graveyard if you never purchase him/her? It is conflict deck. And also Eiji can't even pull characters from conflict discard pile.

I will test courtier Lion more pretty positive it might be the way to play them out of the box just because For shame exists, I will try out Voice of honor too.

edit: we played 7 games up to date and lion lost most of them at 5. This is not courtier lion tho, and we switch decks every time. Also I am pretty positive Doji Challenger might be the best Crane dynasty card. Her stats are just too high.

3 hours ago, BordOne said:

How do you get master of the spear into graveyard if you never purchase him/her? It is conflict deck. And also Eiji can't even pull characters from conflict discard pile.

Yeah, I don't get how he's legally getting Master of the Spear with Eiji or the Spirit Caller.

I agree that the Doji Challenger seems above the curve (of what we've seen so far, that is).

27 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Yeah, I don't get how he's legally getting Master of the Spear with Eiji or the Spirit Caller.

I agree that the Doji Challenger seems above the curve (of what we've seen so far, that is).

Spirit Caller can play her if she is already in discard pile. Pretty interesting that she can target both graveyards and Eiji only one.

Yup it feels like her glory or her politics is 1 too high(or maybe even both).

So far, I've tested six Lion vs. Crane games. Lion won 4. They won the first two, then Crane came back and won two.

For the last two games, I changed the decks slightly, and they are currently both running Crab stuff in the conflict deck (Reprieve and Testubo). Lion won both. The first game was very close; both decks had lost three provinces before Lion (barely) broke the Crane Stronghold.

The second was mostly dominated by Lion. I was playing the deck, and managed to keep Toturi out the whole game (got him first turn with the free 2 Mil guy, and added 2 fate to Toturi). Crane player did dishonor him early, and reoved a void from him. but I kept him out with Reprieve and once he was back to neutral, added a Sashimono, then a Fine Katana on the final (4th) Turn. I managed to stay ahead in honor, which was the clincher.

If Crane had managed to draw more than one Way of the Crane and / or more than one For Shame, I might very well have lost. Hotaru did show up, and she kicked some butt third Turn, but she only had one fate on her, and I removed it with a timely double Void Ring claim. Going into that final fourth turn, I had Toturi and an honored Akodo Gunso, then was able to buy two Steadfast Samurai and am Honored General, and still had three Fate left over for goodies during conflict. The Crane went into that Turn with nothing (yay Void Ring + Toturi). They managed three characters including a Doji Challenger with a Duelist Training and a Fine Katana. She managed to win the duel vs. Honored General and bow another character with For Shame, but even bowed, the General still gave the others +1 Mil, and the Stronghold put me at 12 Military skill, and I needed only 11 to break the stronghold province (it had Pilgrimage, which made for 7 province strength, plus Crane had 5 military skill left ready).

So, while it's certainly to early to make any truly serious claims about either clan's overall power level (if nothing else, 'splashing' other clans into the conflict deck can make a major difference), I think that so far my test games (and watching some others online) have shown that:

A) Both Lion and Crane have plenty of very strong cards, and a few potentially not so strong cards. They both seem capable of beating the other. Though I can see why some people feel Crane are somewha5 more versatile and therefore have an edge over Lion, I'm not yet convinced it will be any serious advantage once we are better at the game, and more cards are available.

B) This game is even more intricate than I thought, on both a Turn-to-Turn tactical decisions basis, and thinking ahead a turn or two (more strategic thinking, basically). I'm probably going to suck at "New5R" even more than I did with the CCG, but I'm love it anyway. Excellent mechanics. Well done, devs.

41 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Spirit Caller can play her if she is already in discard pile. Pretty interesting that she can target both graveyards and Eiji only one.

Yup it feels like her glory or her politics is 1 too high(or maybe even both).

Ah, true. Haven't tried that yet, Could be handy. Also, I suppose if you splash Crane into the deck, you could end up discarding Conflict characters using Duelist Training, though it's hard to imagine Lion having enough cards in hand to make that card work.

As for workhorse characters, I have found that Nerishma is quite possibly just as good as the Challenger. The only downside to him is that flipping up a dynasty card makes it a lot less likely you'll be passing first that turn, so his ability sometimes ends up 'costing' you one fate. Then again, Lion often flip up 2-3 cards a Turn, so you can get first pass against them a decent amount of the time, anyway.

I'm considering trying Phoenix cards in the Crane conflict deck. Maybe three Pacifism, one Know the World, and one Seeker of Knowledge. Or, two Pacifism, one Know the World, and three Seekers). If I try it and use three seekers, I'll probably slot in Miya Mystic (taking out the kinda iffy Otomo Courtier).

@Togashi Gao Shan Nice. I don't know why Lion is doing so poorly in our testing we make sure each player switches the deck. I think it just comes down to very low sample size. I noticed during 7 games toturi came up only 3 times and Eiji 2 times so maybe thats why Lion had a hard time.

The Crane cartainly do feel more versatile, since with Lion you are more restricted in your options because of honor and lower political strength. I also feel their conflict deck is less proactive.

Yeah the game is great. I was really afraid conflicts will be a math contest just like Agot challenges are, but it really feels much deeper both on tactical and strategic level.

15 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Ah, true. Haven't tried that yet, Could be handy.

As for workhorse characters, I have found that Nerishma is quite possibly just as good as the Challenger. The only downside to him is that flipping up a dynasty card makes it a lot less likely you'll be passing first that turn, so his ability sometimes ends up 'costing' you one fate. Then again, Lion often flip up 2-3 cards a Turn, so you can get first pass against them a decent amount of the time, anyway.

Yeah nerishima also feels 1 stat too high. But from what I have gathered the Lion tend to do better than Crane so maybe that's what they need.

5 hours ago, williamobrien said:

I've played around a dozen games. Lion has lost 3 of them. Like I said, it's about 50/50 on whether I can play Voice of Honor. Maybe a little less. That's fine. Most conflict cards are only useful around that much anyway. It's probably much more playable against other clans so it's worth having a match-up where it's only pretty good.

Asami can't stop Historian from Honoring on turn 1, and in fact has a hard time even using the ability that early if Historian is out (Asami presumably getting at least one fate on her, meaning she's more likely to be attacking alone on turn 1 where she has lower strength than the historian without an extra card). One Ikoma Prodigy puts Lion ahead by two, which means Obstinate Recruit can survive one Asami activation and one honor on top of that keeps Historian active. Even if Asami really gets going, it's not the end of the world. I had one game where Crane got an early Asami active for three turns and a big honor lead and then got blown out by a double Lion's Pride Brawler + Ring of Water turn anyway.

The lack of MIL skill on Courtiers only really matters if the Crane player hits them with Doji Challenger in a MIL challenge. Otherwise, you're going to need someone to participate in POL challenges anyway. You shouldn't just ignore it. You still end up with around 30 dynasty guys who contribute in some way to MIL.

Don't forget that Brawler is Courtier too, so she can play For Shame! So with two Otomos it's 14 dynasty Courtiers (3x Brawler, Eiji, Historian, Prodigy) and 3 conflict. 5 are - MIL and 3 are 0 (I've actually taken a MIL province with Prodigy though).

Master of the Spear is basically never actually purchased, but it's a great guy to bring out for free with the Spiritcaller or Eiji and you don't have Brawler. He's also hilarious against Kaizen. You do have to sequence his action correctly though. I lost a game today where I messed up with him. Probably the first mid-cost guy to get trimmed once something good comes in the expansions, but I think he's better than Beiona (who is terrible with the resurrect people) and it's gotta cost 3 or less for Eiji.

Crane deck is using Ready for Battle and Stand Your Ground, plus one Guidance from the Ancestors. They are no more likely to draw them than the Lion is, unless they decide to bid higher and give Lion's dynasty cards more leeway. Their holding does help, but Lion also has a draw 3 province so it mostly evens out.

A Few Questions/Comments:

1. Ikoma Prodigy: Expending one or more fate to get 1 honour is as strong as it is direct. Adding her to a Lion deck as support makes complete sense for that reason. She keeps them involved in political conflicts and smooths over their need to maintain an honour advantage.

2. Ikoma Eiji/Kitsu Spirit Caller: I'm not too familiar with the rules as yet, but is it possible to raise/recall non purchased characters? Effectively, getting them for free? My understanding of these cards were that they are raising previously purchased characters.

3. How often did Crane push political conflict against Lion? I see them as not being able to trade at the same rate, given less political skill boosts in the environment thus far. Was that more or less your experience?

4. Who won the majority of the duels in your test cases?

5. Did you use Vengeful Oathkeeper? Was he useful?

Thx.

On 6/17/2017 at 2:16 AM, BordOne said:

Guest of Honour is okish against Lion purely for the fact that she has 4 in politics. Her ability is not that useful since she won't be defending against military where most of the(to be honest nearly all) events of the Lion come in play. If you have the feeling the opponent has For Greater Glory you can still use her to defend I guess which could deny a lot of faith. Also you can use her in your own water challenge when you want to bow enemy character to make sure they cannot use Ready for Battle. Overall against Lion she is pretty meh compared to Asahina Storyteller who has better military, 2 glory and is a shugenja. I can see her being good in event heavy matchups tho.

Yes Crane have no problem to stay ahead in honor against Lion. We didn't use Ikoma Prodigy but I don't think it would change much.

Way of the Crane comboed up with Savy Politician and Brash Samurais gives you pretty good honor supply already. Kakita Kaezin and duelist training also can get you a lot of it.

And then comes Kakita Asami whom is just plainly stupid in this matchup. She generates 2 point honor swing each time she uses her ability(essentialy a free ring of air) and makes it impossible to catch up.

Lion with their Honored Blades don't really stand much of a chance against that. Obviously they also have Honored Generals, Historians and Akodo Gunso to gain honor but all of them are either conditional or expensive characters that you want to keep for longer. Over 5 games we have played faction vs faction there was 1 where Lion stayed ahead in honor consistently for majority of the game. That being said our lists weren't optimized.

Guest of Honour: Good to know, I will have to play test her when the set is released. Her blanket ability to shut down opponent events _seems_ very handy, but I'll defer to your test results for the time being.

Crane honour vs. Lion honour: It seems that williamobrien and yourself have had the opposite play experience in this regard. Interesting. If Ikoma Prodigy allows the Lion to gain 1 honour for 1 or more fate, then that seems the most direct access to honour between the two clans (from a personality's ability, that is). That could definitely affect Lion's ability to gain and maintain an honour advantage.

20 minutes ago, Anemura said:

2. Ikoma Eiji/Kitsu Spirit Caller: I'm not too familiar with the rules as yet, but is it possible to raise/recall non purchased characters? Effectively, getting them for free? My understanding of these cards were that they are raising previously purchased characters.

Ikoma Eiji can put characters from your provinces(without paying their fate cost) or your dynasty discard pile into play. Kitsu Spirit Caller can put characters from either of your discard piles but not from provinces.

20 minutes ago, Anemura said:

Guest of Honour: Good to know, I will have to play test her when the set is released. Her blanket ability to shut down opponent events _seems_ very handy, but I'll defer to your test results for the time being.

Crane honour vs. Lion honour: It seems that williamobrien and yourself have had the opposite play experience in this regard. Interesting. If Ikoma Prodigy allows the Lion to gain 1 honour for 1 or more fate, then that seems the most direct access to honour between the two clans (from a personality's ability, that is). That could definitely affect Lion's ability to gain and maintain an honour advantage.

Just quick notice on guest of honor: she might be a bit more useful against courtier variant of Lion which is playing For shame and voice of honors. Her stats are still pretty subpar tho.

Yeah it seems so right now I attribute it to the low sample size. While 1 Honor from Ikoma Prodigy is nothing to scoff at it is also not really ground breaking. She might be useful with Good Omen to gain more if it works with her reaction.

4 minutes ago, Anemura said:

A Few Questions/Comments:

1. Ikoma Prodigy: Expending one or more fate to get 1 honour is as strong as it is direct. Adding her to a Lion deck as support makes complete sense for that reason. She keeps them involved in political conflicts and smooths over their need to maintain an honour advantage.

2. Ikoma Eiji/Kitsu Spirit Caller: I'm not too familiar with the rules as yet, but is it possible to raise/recall non purchased characters? Effectively, getting them for free? My understanding of these cards were that they are raising previously purchased characters.

3. How often did Crane push political conflict against Lion? I see them as not being able to trade at the same rate, given less political skill boosts in the environment thus far. Was that more or less your experience?

4. Who won the majority of the duels in your test cases?

5. Did you use Vengeful Oathkeeper? Was he useful?

Thx.

1) The Lion most of the time maintain an honor advantage but on average it is 2-3 honor in our games. The Crane are capable of some explosive honor gain though.

2) As long as the card is in your discard pile for some reason, you can get it back with these cards regardless of having or not played it before.

3) You can actually trade pretty much trade one for one most of the time. Less skill boosts means that the Lion have a hard time defending also.

4) Kaezin and Challenger usually stand above most of the field in military power so they win a lot of duels. Keep in mind though that most of the time we both bid one.

5) I did not splash it my Crane, I used the nine influence for the three good Lion staples (Honored Blade, Guidance of Ancestors and Ready for Battle). Vengeful Oathkeeper was a mixed bag for my Lion opponent, because I only attacked military with Challenger, Brash Samurai or Hotaru most of the time they were staying in his hand.

1 hour ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Yeah, I don't get how he's legally getting Master of the Spear with Eiji or the Spirit Caller.

He lost a conflict and Master of Spear was in his province/discard pile?

5 hours ago, BordOne said:

How do you get master of the spear into graveyard if you never purchase him/her? It is conflict deck. And also Eiji can't even pull characters from conflict discard pile.

Question: By "graveyard" do you mean discard pile? If so, Master of the Spear can be discarded, or remain in province, for Eiji to work no?

And as you noted above, Kitsu Spirit Caller works for either discard pile (still don't have to have Master of the Spear purchased at any point).

9 minutes ago, Anemura said:

He lost a conflict and Master of Spear was in his province/discard pile?

Question: By "graveyard" do you mean discard pile? If so, Master of the Spear can be discarded, or remain in province, for Eiji to work no?

And as you noted above, Kitsu Spirit Caller works for either discard pile (still don't have to have Master of the Spear purchased at any point).

Again, Master of the Spear is conflict deck, she doesn't come from your province you draw her to your hand at the beginning of the conflict along with events and attachments.

Yes I do mean discard pile. OP said that he never plays her but just uses Eiji or Spiritcaller to rez her. Conflict cards however cannot be discarded other than due to card effects and earth ring so it is very hard to field her if you dont plan on paying her fate cost. Furthermore even if he discarded her Eiji cannot rez conflict cards.

I suspect OP just played the card wrong and put it into dynasty deck.

5 hours ago, BordOne said:

How do you get master of the spear into graveyard if you never purchase him/her? It is conflict deck. And also Eiji can't even pull characters from conflict discard pile.

I will test courtier Lion more pretty positive it might be the way to play them out of the box just because For shame exists, I will try out Voice of honor too.

edit: we played 7 games up to date and lion lost most of them at 5. This is not courtier lion tho, and we switch decks every time. Also I am pretty positive Doji Challenger might be the best Crane dynasty card. Her stats are just too high.

Whoa. I completely thought it was dynasty. Whoops. That does change things up. So Beiona goes in that slot instead. Beiona is a card that is occasionally worth purchasing so it might still be better overall. I had dropped Beiona out of frustration from flipping her and Master together, which is less of a concern if Master isn't there.

Hmm, Master of the Spear is interesting as a Conflict card. 3 is a lot, and leaving fate up would kind of telegraph it. The action is weak late in a conflict so you'd have to play it earlier than some other stuff, which is suboptimal. It's usually worse than Strength in Numbers. He actually has credible POL skill though, so it might be useful for POL attacks. Probably worth trying it as a single copy on those turns where a ring has a bunch of fate. Still a good Spirit Caller target. I'm kind of wondering now about running Duelist Training and then pitching stuff like Master, Oathkeeper, and Guidance from the Ancestors to get a bid 5 at "0" cost.

Doji Challenger is for sure Crane's best character. It's their version of Brawler. Better stats but the ability can sometimes backfire.

21 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Again, Master of the Spear is conflict deck, she doesn't come from your province you draw her to your hand at the beginning of the conflict along with events and attachments.

Yes I do mean discard pile. OP said that he never plays her but just uses Eiji or Spiritcaller to rez her. Conflict cards however cannot be discarded other than due to card effects and earth ring so it is very hard to field her if you dont plan on paying her fate cost. Furthermore even if he discarded her Eiji cannot rez conflict cards.

I suspect OP just played the card wrong and put it into dynasty deck.

Well that would explain it, I didn't notice that Master of the Spear was Conflict Deck/had markings at the bottom. That clears things up, thanks.

45 minutes ago, blackheartz said:

1) The Lion most of the time maintain an honor advantage but on average it is 2-3 honor in our games. The Crane are capable of some explosive honor gain though.

2) As long as the card is in your discard pile for some reason, you can get it back with these cards regardless of having or not played it before.

3) You can actually trade pretty much trade one for one most of the time. Less skill boosts means that the Lion have a hard time defending also.

4) Kaezin and Challenger usually stand above most of the field in military power so they win a lot of duels. Keep in mind though that most of the time we both bid one.

5) I did not splash it my Crane, I used the nine influence for the three good Lion staples (Honored Blade, Guidance of Ancestors and Ready for Battle). Vengeful Oathkeeper was a mixed bag for my Lion opponent, because I only attacked military with Challenger, Brash Samurai or Hotaru most of the time they were staying in his hand.

How do the Lion maintain that honour advantage?

Who wins more of the games in your play test?

1 hour ago, Anemura said:

A Few Questions/Comments:

1. Ikoma Prodigy: Expending one or more fate to get 1 honour is as strong as it is direct. Adding her to a Lion deck as support makes complete sense for that reason. She keeps them involved in political conflicts and smooths over their need to maintain an honour advantage.

2. Ikoma Eiji/Kitsu Spirit Caller: I'm not too familiar with the rules as yet, but is it possible to raise/recall non purchased characters? Effectively, getting them for free? My understanding of these cards were that they are raising previously purchased characters.

3. How often did Crane push political conflict against Lion? I see them as not being able to trade at the same rate, given less political skill boosts in the environment thus far. Was that more or less your experience?

4. Who won the majority of the duels in your test cases?

5. Did you use Vengeful Oathkeeper? Was he useful?

Thx.

2. There's no difference in discard pile so anything you pitch at end of turn is fair game.

3. Yeah, Lion's advantage in my games has come from Crane bouncing off of Pilgrimage/Shameful Display at fairly high rate, which gives enough time for the Lion to put together Toturi or a crew of Brawlers and really dominate a turn.

4. Crane has won all of the duels, since I always bid low to try to steal honor, though in retrospect I think I should have won one in my game yesterday because I should have bid 5 and pitched the cards in my hand. I forgot that option, and my opponent had to bid low since I was at 20 honor. I'm considering running it in Lion now that I see a little more value in Guidance from the Ancestors from playtesting. It could turn into a way to generate weird card advantage.

5. Oathkeeper is kind of a victim of sequencing, at least in the Crane match. The Crane stronghold really limits the value of doing a POL challenge first, even with Deathseeker. So you usually do your MIL challenge, then Oathkeeper isn't all that good when you drop him for free afterwards. I think he'll be better against other clans where you get more value out of a spud POL conflict. He's still a guy you can pay for and get 3 MIL as a surprise, so he's still better than a lot of conflict options.

45 minutes ago, Anemura said:

Well that would explain it, I didn't notice that Master of the Spear was Conflict Deck/had markings at the bottom. That clears things up, thanks.

How do the Lion maintain that honour advantage?

Who wins more of the games in your play test?

Lion maintain the advantage by always bidding one honor for card drawing(I also almost always bid one) and they have a lot of self honoring dudes plus Prodigy. With Crane you can get some crazy explosive honors with politician and lady Kakita that can push you ahead suddenly(and you probably will stay ahead then) but most of the time you will be slightly behind. Art of Peace can also ruin their day when they attack with 3+ characters.

At first I was winning a lot but currently I am ahead by just one match and I think that as we adapt the decks more and start seeing more obscure plays the Lion can actually pull ahead, with the current cardpool and rules. Because for example we are not sure with which provinces can Shameful Display be run and it is one of the most valuable for both clans.

Edit: Elemental Fury although more niche, is a nice one to reveal when both players want the same ring because you get to protect it.

1 hour ago, williamobrien said:

Whoa. I completely thought it was dynasty. Whoops. That does change things up. So Beiona goes in that slot instead. Beiona is a card that is occasionally worth purchasing so it might still be better overall. I had dropped Beiona out of frustration from flipping her and Master together, which is less of a concern if Master isn't there.

Hmm, Master of the Spear is interesting as a Conflict card. 3 is a lot, and leaving fate up would kind of telegraph it. The action is weak late in a conflict so you'd have to play it earlier than some other stuff, which is suboptimal. It's usually worse than Strength in Numbers. He actually has credible POL skill though, so it might be useful for POL attacks. Probably worth trying it as a single copy on those turns where a ring has a bunch of fate. Still a good Spirit Caller target. I'm kind of wondering now about running Duelist Training and then pitching stuff like Master, Oathkeeper, and Guidance from the Ancestors to get a bid 5 at "0" cost.

Doji Challenger is for sure Crane's best character. It's their version of Brawler. Better stats but the ability can sometimes backfire.

Welp Beiona is much weaker in maxed out courtiers deck. I don't think she is better than Master of the Spear would be in dynasty.

Right now I don't see any saving grace for Master of the Spear, as a Lion you never go into conflict phase with 3 fate. She is even worse if you draw her instead of some useful event during conflict, with how precious and rare draw is for Lion. Until there is some kind of Lion ambush deck that maybe could happen in the future she will be pretty bad.

Yes Doji Challenger is overstatted. Never had it backfire though, its too easy to pull hepless Matsu berserkers and Honored historians.

37 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Welp Beiona is much weaker in maxed out courtiers deck. I don't think she is better than Master of the Spear would be in dynasty.

Right now I don't see any saving grace for Master of the Spear, as a Lion you never go into conflict phase with 3 fate. She is even worse if you draw her instead of some useful event during conflict, with how precious and rare draw is for Lion. Until there is some kind of Lion ambush deck that maybe could happen in the future she will be pretty bad.

Yes Doji Challenger is overstatted. Never had it backfire though, its too easy to pull hepless Matsu berserkers and Honored historians.

It might be worth trying Master as a reason to pass first. Like buy two cheap guys, and if your opponent buys two guys as well you can pass to get the extra fate and essentially buy Master for 2 fate cost (almost like a 1 since you're also costing the opponent a fate). A turn that looks like Obstinate Recruit + Eiji for 5 + pass with Master in your hand and an Eiji target in province seems pretty strong. It could also work to make Oathkeeper more useful on his off turns as well.

Challenger can backfire when it tries to do stuff like pull in Brawlers or Toturi to a POL conflict to try to prevent their later use. That's why the ability is slightly worse in those situations than Brawler, which can just bow the targets outright. The two cards are pretty equal overall, the best guys for their respective clans.

2 hours ago, williamobrien said:

It might be worth trying Master as a reason to pass first. Like buy two cheap guys, and if your opponent buys two guys as well you can pass to get the extra fate and essentially buy Master for 2 fate cost (almost like a 1 since you're also costing the opponent a fate). A turn that looks like Obstinate Recruit + Eiji for 5 + pass with Master in your hand and an Eiji target in province seems pretty strong. It could also work to make Oathkeeper more useful on his off turns as well.

Challenger can backfire when it tries to do stuff like pull in Brawlers or Toturi to a POL conflict to try to prevent their later use. That's why the ability is slightly worse in those situations than Brawler, which can just bow the targets outright. The two cards are pretty equal overall, the best guys for their respective clans.

1. If you plan playing 1 copy of her you are most likely to draw her later, when you really need impactful events and have little draw since you are a Lion. Is it really worth it to have 1 turn worth of dead draw just to have mediocre play next turn while you can easily generate better board from your dynasty deck? I think the answer is pretty clear.

2. It is really hard to see for me how it can backfire. The two examples you gave just look like a bad play. If you have high enough political than you pull toturi if not than you don't. Due to low amount of political bumps it is really easy to asses situation before hand. And it is always perfectly fine to pull some military shmuck for free value, or honorable historian in military. And yea both doji challenger and lions pride brawler are most cost effective cards in their factions. Actually Doji challenger would still probably be a most cost effective card if she lost 1 glory or 1 political/military which shows how overstatted she is.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

1. If you plan playing 1 copy of her you are most likely to draw her later, when you really need impactful events and have little draw since you are a Lion. Is it really worth it to have 1 turn worth of dead draw just to have mediocre play next turn while you can easily generate better board from your dynasty deck? I think the answer is pretty clear.

2. It is really hard to see for me how it can backfire. The two examples you gave just look like a bad play. If you have high enough political than you pull toturi if not than you don't. Due to low amount of political bumps it is really easy to asses situation before hand. And it is always perfectly fine to pull some military shmuck for free value, or honorable historian in military. And yea both doji challenger and lions pride brawler are both most cost effective cards in their factions. Actually Doji challenger would still probably be a most cost effective card if she lost 1 glory or 1 political/military which shows how overstatted she is.

1. If I'm actually going to try it out, I'm trying it as 3x. It's not like the games actually matter, we're still trying to see what works. There's no reason at this point to rule things out w/o trying them. It's possible that the 2 fate swing makes the card worth it. Even better, if you pass and you don't end up needing to play it for whatever reason, you have a nice reserve built up for the following turn. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't.

2. If opponent uses Challenger to drag in Brawler, then bow her with the stronghold, that's a completely legit play, especially if the Lion's hand is small and/or a copy or two of Ready for Battle has already been used. Then the Lion player plays something like Guidance from the Ancestors or For Shame and saves the province. Doesn't mean it was a bad play based on available information. You have to weigh the potential benefit against the potential drawback. The benefit of bowing a Brawler is quite high compared to something like Deathseeker or Obstinate Recruit.

55 minutes ago, williamobrien said:

1. If I'm actually going to try it out, I'm trying it as 3x. It's not like the games actually matter, we're still trying to see what works. There's no reason at this point to rule things out w/o trying them. It's possible that the 2 fate swing makes the card worth it. Even better, if you pass and you don't end up needing to play it for whatever reason, you have a nice reserve built up for the following turn. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't.

2. If opponent uses Challenger to drag in Brawler, then bow her with the stronghold, that's a completely legit play, especially if the Lion's hand is small and/or a copy or two of Ready for Battle has already been used. Then the Lion player plays something like Guidance from the Ancestors or For Shame and saves the province. Doesn't mean it was a bad play based on available information. You have to weigh the potential benefit against the potential drawback. The benefit of bowing a Brawler is quite high compared to something like Deathseeker or Obstinate Recruit.

1. Ofc. This is just a cold analysis.

2. Yes you need to asses the situation when you are using her ability, just like when you are using any ability in the game. For Shame can swing for enough when she isn't honored which for most of the time isn't true. Guidance of Ancestors by itself still loses the challenge so I don't see your point here - you saved them Shizuka toshi by spending one card and still lost the conflict. It is also not like Crane can run their own For shames and Ready for battles.

So you don't agree her glory could have easily been 1 at least? I am not crying wolf, just speaking from the pure economical value point of view.

Guys, how many of your games have been won through Honor and how many through breaking Provinces and Stronghold.

4 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

Guys, how many of your games have been won through Honor and how many through breaking Provinces and Stronghold.

Over 7 games there was 1 honor victory and it was at the point in the game where the player would be able to break the Stronghold too possibly.

Honor is much more of a threat and rescource to be manipulated than a win condition. It encourages skillful play and changes in pressure that you can trap your opponent with. Normal province breaking still proves to be faster of a win condition at least for now.

51 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Over 7 games there was 1 honor victory and it was at the point in the game where the player would be able to break the Stronghold too possibly.

Honor is much more of a threat and rescource to be manipulated than a win condition. It encourages skillful play and changes in pressure that you can trap your opponent with. Normal province breaking still proves to be faster of a win condition at least for now.

Interesting. Thanks for the quick reply.

I wonder if a win through the Honor mechanism would be more probable through the other Clans, such as Dragon and conversely through Scorpion. (though I don't know how Scorpion will pull off an Honor win)

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

For Shame can swing for enough when she isn't honored which for most of the time isn't true.

Guidance of Ancestors by itself still loses the challenge so I don't see your point here - you saved them Shizuka toshi by spending one card and still lost the conflict. It is also not like Crane can run their own For shames and Ready for battles.

So you don't agree her glory could have easily been 1 at least? I am not crying wolf, just speaking from the pure economical value point of view.

She's only honored the turn she comes into play if they go first and have Way of the Crane ready. Otherwise, why aren't you hitting her with Fire?

Even mulliganing the full 4 cards at the beginning, Way of the Crane should only be in their opening hand about half the time. Even less if they don't mulligan the full 4. They shouldn't *always* have it unless your luck has been just terrible.

re: Guidance - It's not just above winning the conflict, it's also about saving the province, especially where Pilgrimage is concerned since saving the province essentially is winning the conflict. If they can't bow the new defender they need at least 8 strength to take the province without any other effects or defenders, which means they sent a pretty hefty commitment. If they sent that to a province and it flipped The Art of War they would feel pretty bad.

Since I think we've gotten off-track a bit, my overall point was that Challenger's ability is a little worse than Brawler's at hitting premium targets because of the risks. True backfire probably won't happen often, since if there's a big risk they'll hit someone safe like Berserker. But that means Challenger hasn't hit the best possible target. Yeah, Brawler can get stuffed by Ready for Battle, but that card probably isn't going to be in every deck once we get more than two clans previewed. Plus, Brawler can actually be used against opposing targets, which Challenger most certainly can't.

Doji Challenger should probably be either 2 POL or 1 Glory to be in line with the other 3-drops.

4 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

Interesting. Thanks for the quick reply.

I wonder if a win through the Honor mechanism would be more probable through the other Clans, such as Dragon and conversely through Scorpion. (though I don't know how Scorpion will pull off an Honor win)

In my games I've had one game where Lion actually hit 25 and a couple others where they hit around 20. The 25 was basically a god draw with turn 1 Toturi for 6, Toturi dupe, Obstinate Recruit, pass for fate, attack MIL Fire, attach Sashimono, honor both guys, then POL Air challenge and Recruit dies honored to go to 17. Turn 2 was Prodigy/Gunso attach Honored Blade to Toturi and do Air again and some other challenge, let Gunso die honored, hit 25. So that draw was going to win by provinces anyway and I just wanted to win by honor.

I think the problem with honor in the Crane/Lion matchup is that both clans have an interest in being in the lead due to the way Lion cards work, and Crane is actually close enough where it's a possibility. So both clans bid low and neither ever really gets honor from it. There aren't enough incidental gains to make the difference and Air is usually one of the weaker rings to choose on board state. I think with other clans in the mix there could be a more reasonable possibility of honor running happening. Provinces will still be the usual path though.