Nice idea Rakayados, except for the cost, because a gyro stabilization cockpit is an integral part of B-Wings, like adaptatives ailerons on TIE Strickers. So this upgrade should be free in my opinion.

You may add : "when you perform a barrel roll action or a red maneuver with at least one stress token, roll one attack dice for each stress token you have : on a critical hit result, discard this upgrade and loose your barel roll action."

Because, according to Wookieepedia, "the gyro-mechanisms for the fighter were prone to in-flight failure, causing the fighters to end up "frozen" into position, thus leading to maneuvering problems."

Now that the Scurgg article is out, it's hard not to compare it with a B-wing.

Let's compare these ships:

For 2 points more, the Scurrg gets:

• 2 more hull
• 2 bomb upgrade slots
• a turret slot instead of a cannon slot
• a crew slot (that can be exchanged for a system and an astromech)
• loses 1 pilot skill
• Has slightly better, faster dial with tallon rolls instead of the 2-speed koiogran, and white speed 3 banks.

The b-wing can exchange its modification slot for a crew slot, but it needs to pay 1 point for that.

Let's give value to the extra stuff:

• 4-6 points for the 2 extra hull (the cost of equipping two Reinforced Hull. If you don't consider 1 hull worth 3 points, let's leave it at 2)
• 0-1 for the two bomb slots (lets assume each slot is worth between 0 and 0.5)
• 3 points for the turret slot. Turrets are more worth than cannons, since they aren't restricted to arc. Even if you don't consider that worth anything, the TLT is undercosted by 3 points to account for the "overcostedness" of the Y-wing, HWK and K-wing, so this slot is at least worth that negative offset.
• 1 for the crew slot. That is easy to calculate since that is precisely the cost of the B-wing/E2 modification. Since the Havoc title costs 0 and it lets you exchange the crew for a system and astromech, I will consider these upgrade slots equivalent it worth. Let's assume the loss of the modification slot in the B-wing to get this crew slot is worth nothing (Even when the modification slot is one of the most prized ones).
• -0.5 points for the loss of pilot skill
• 1 point for the better dial.

So the Scurrg is getting between 8.5 and 11.5 points worth of extra stuff for 2 points. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

This surely conveys some meaning or intention from FFG. These ships are very similar, but the Scurrg is objectively undercosted in a very acute way.

Do you think this means FFG acknowledges the B-wing is overcosted and it will eventually get some significative buff?
Or you think FFG is just determined to undercost Scum ships for whatever unrevealed reason and it has no predictive value of what will happen with other ships, if anything?

On June 14, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Rakaydos said:

What the Bwing really needs is Primed Thrusters.

Literally half it's dial it cant use actions with, which makes being "Like the Xwing, but with barrel roll" useless. It's named pilots, who are high enlogh PS to USE the barrel roll effectively, cant because their white maneuvers are so predictable.

If they had primed thrusters or an equivilant title, Keyan could pull a 1 hard barrel roll like a tie fighter and use his ability to clear stress. Ibstan could use Intensity on red moves. Ten Numb might be able to avoid being shot.

That's kinda a good suggestion.

59 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Now that the Scurgg article is out, it's hard not to compare it with a B-wing.

Let's compare these ships:

For 2 points more, the Scurrg gets:

• 2 more hull
• 2 bomb upgrade slots
• a turret slot instead of a cannon slot
• a crew slot (that can be exchanged for a system and an astromech)
• loses 1 pilot skill
• Has slightly better, faster dial with tallon rolls instead of the 2-speed koiogran, and white speed 3 banks.

The b-wing can exchange its modification slot for a crew slot, but it needs to pay 1 point for that.

Let's give value to the extra stuff:

• 4-6 points for the 2 extra hull (the cost of equipping two Reinforced Hull. If you don't consider 1 hull worth 3 points, let's leave it at 2)
• 0-1 for the two bomb slots (lets assume each slot is worth between 0 and 0.5)
• 3 points for the turret slot. Turrets are more worth than cannons, since they aren't restricted to arc. Even if you don't consider that worth anything, the TLT is undercosted by 3 points to account for the "overcostedness" of the Y-wing, HWK and K-wing, so this slot is at least worth that negative offset.
• 1 for the crew slot. That is easy to calculate since that is precisely the cost of the B-wing/E2 modification. Since the Havoc title costs 0 and it lets you exchange the crew for a system and astromech, I will consider these upgrade slots equivalent it worth. Let's assume the loss of the modification slot in the B-wing to get this crew slot is worth nothing (Even when the modification slot is one of the most prized ones).
• -0.5 points for the loss of pilot skill
• 1 point for the better dial.

So the Scurrg is getting between 8.5 and 11.5 points worth of extra stuff for 2 points. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

This surely conveys some meaning or intention from FFG. These ships are very similar, but the Scurrg is objectively undercosted in a very acute way.

Do you think this means FFG acknowledges the B-wing is overcosted and it will eventually get some significative buff?
Or you think FFG is just determined to undercost Scum ships for whatever unrevealed reason and it has no predictive value of what will happen with other ships, if anything?

Yes and no. I think the Scurgg absolutely has WAYYY too much crap it shouldn't have. Way powercreeped. Its absolutely horrible game balance.

But at the same time, the Tie FO vs the Tie showed us how adding a bunch of things for a few points isn't as crazy as it seems. But still, the Tie FO got WAYYY less for 3 points more on a even less expensive frame than the Scurgg is getting.

bad design for balance.

On 6/14/2017 at 5:23 AM, TreebeardTheEnt said:

...

Edit: It was not my intention to 'fix' the B-Wing with this thread. I have never flown the ship and was looking at the 4 I have and wondering why the B/E2 was a modification and not a title, and if that change would break something.

So the answer to that question is that the design for this expansion was after the Wave 2 when modifications and title were first new. You can see concepts about this as early as the art since the Saber Squadron had the Red Stripe and the Prototype Pilot paint job. So FFG didn't exactly know how important a modification would be come and how unrestricted a free upgrade slot to all ships would have become.

To be honest the only reason the E2 modification upgrade was in there is to also include a bit of a HWK fix and that is the Jan Ors <crew> and Kyle Katan <crew> upgrade cards. Every upgrade in the expansion pack has to be able to be equipped by the models enclosed hence per the X-wing business model. Doesn't have to be the best match but it has to be "tournament legal". If you look at the Jan Ors and Kyle Katan upgrades you will see how there is synergism to the Jan Ors and Kyle Katan pilot abilities.

All in all at the time there wasn't that many modification the B-wing could have used then (and not to many now too). It already had 5 shields so shield upgrade was no good, Hull upgrade would have been better but it would still be vulnerable to flechete torpedoes and more susceptible to crits. Stealth device was not worth the 3 points on a 1 agility ship that goes away after the first hit. Also B-wings were not made to go fast so Engine upgrade was too much for too little. So at the time (and this time included) the E2 seems to be the best modification for the B-wing.

I had a crazy idea a while back that the way to fix the B-Wing was to allow them a Reinforce (Forward only) action.

4 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Do you think this means FFG acknowledges the B-wing is overcosted and it will eventually get some significative buff?
Or you think FFG is just determined to undercost Scum ships for whatever unrevealed reason and it has no predictive value of what will happen with other ships, if anything?

definitely the former

the B-wing was just utterly slaughtered by wave 7 TLTs and has never seen play since. It is simply not efficient enough for how utterly limited its dial is

the named pilots were especially horrendously overpriced

FFG learned a lot since then

the SCURRG itself isn't undercosted at all, and 1 agi burns quickly with or without 2 extra hull. Basically, it ain't no jm5k

15 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

I had a crazy idea a while back that the way to fix the B-Wing was to allow them a Reinforce (Forward only) action.

kinda wanted this for the X-wing too, if only because we never see them die by getting shot at from the front until Ep 7

local store tourney had 4BZ come in second. Only to lose to Dengar/Tel. If flown right it can wipe a ship a turn. But still need some help to see named pilots make a step into the meta

On 6/16/2017 at 2:30 AM, Rakaydos said:

1)Ten numb with double tap removes Soontier fell from the meta permanantly. I'm a fan of multiple discounted cannons, but tie/D is right out for the bwing

2)

Primed Thrusters and Hera in a single package. Chain red maneuvers together and barrel roll after each, but you cap at 3, and you dont get any other actions till you clear it all.

Keyan can give Tycho a run for his money.

On 6/16/2017 at 2:30 AM, Rakaydos said:

1)Ten numb with double tap removes Soontier fell from the meta permanantly. I'm a fan of multiple discounted cannons, but tie/D is right out for the bwing

2)

Primed Thrusters and Hera in a single package. Chain red maneuvers together and barrel roll after each, but you cap at 3, and you dont get any other actions till you clear it all.

Soontir Actually profits from the B-wing getting a double tap cannon, because that means more 1 agility ships on the board. Ten numb is not a two agility large based EPT carrying, k-4 security back up droid wearin', ship. The only time Ten numb will ever be a threat is with VI, but honestly you want expertise on ten numb anyway, 99% of the time.

Tie defenders didn't push soontir out with the TIE/D, they did it with the X/7(and certain TLT card, but that's another topic). Honestly the same restriction on the TIE/D would work for the B-wing as well. (limit to flechette, ion, or tractor beam cannons.)

You guys haven't played against a Wes/Biggs/OpportunitstHLC Keyan. One of our locals is really good with that list and wrecks stuff.

That being said, yeah the Havoc has way more options than the B-Wing.

I mean, it should - it's a Heavy Bomber. It needs lots of upgrade slots to do worthwhile things. Why pick on the H-6? The K-Wing only costs a point more and has even more upgrades than the H-6, +1 Health on the B-Wing and can SLAM. Depending on the situation 2 PWT can be more useful than 3 ATK. And it still has a Turret option. Or maybe we don't complain about how the K-Wing is way better than the B-Wing because it does something different?

B-Wings were probably overcosted for their System Slot though, and /E2 was clearly a case of lack of future-proofing. If released today it would be a title.

9 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Soontir Actually profits from the B-wing getting a double tap cannon, because that means more 1 agility ships on the board. Ten numb is not a two agility large based EPT carrying, k-4 security back up droid wearin', ship. The only time Ten numb will ever be a threat is with VI, but honestly you want expertise on ten numb anyway, 99% of the time.

Tie defenders didn't push soontir out with the TIE/D, they did it with the X/7(and certain TLT card, but that's another topic). Honestly the same restriction on the TIE/D would work for the B-wing as well. (limit to flechette, ion, or tractor beam cannons.)

I dont see how soontier benifits from 2 autocrits that cannot be arcdodged or evaded per round.

On 6/17/2017 at 4:31 PM, Mward1984 said:

I had a crazy idea a while back that the way to fix the B-Wing was to allow them a Reinforce (Forward only) action.

Boooooooo

As an Epic player I am NOT supportive of the Reinforce token for small ships. It will invalidate all 2 ATK ships (except ATC and Inquisitor). I want more ships to be played, not less.

15 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

I dont see how soontier benifits from 2 autocrits that cannot be arcdodged or evaded per round.

While a corner case of one ship, I do agree. Thematically I am for the dual link, but cautious. Prefer all titles to be for non-generics just for this reason. I think you have to look at the pros and cons with the Defender. I flew a TIE/D Raging Ryad at Endor Open and it melted so fast.....so it might not be OP for the high cost B-Wings. Really need play testing...

BUT Ten Numb would be out of control with Mangler Cannon against non-shielded ships. Here Fenn-y Fenn-y Fenn-y.

Bwing should be a cannon bearer, but its attack value makes canon upgrades too expensive. IMO a -3 pts on cannon upgrades for Bwings (and other non-double tapping ships with 3 ATT) should do the trick.

3 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

Bwing should be a cannon bearer, but its attack value makes canon upgrades too expensive. IMO a -3 pts on cannon upgrades for Bwings (and other non-double tapping ships with 3 ATT) should do the trick.

How about a dual card for PS5 or higher
1st Side - Equip a cannon, -3 pts
2nd Side - Same as TIE/D but at 0 pts.

If you want to double tap you must pay the price (shooting as two ships), if you want to reduce cost, just equip the thing.

But this has nothing to do with the original question about E2.

47 minutes ago, rilesman said:

2nd Side - Same as TIE/D but at 0 pts.

That would be a little bit too much. I think there is a solution to the cannon upgrade problem without double tapping; pricing them in function of base ATT value of the ship should be enough.

51 minutes ago, rilesman said:

PS5 or higher

I don't see why generics wouldn't benefit from cannon upgrade fix.