I have a question about which upgrade is more likely to keep the pilot skill 1 TIE Striker(Imperial Trainee) alive through one round of shooting. I'm inclined to say LWF at first guess, since its often more dice, which is beneficial for each incoming shot, but this pilot will only be getting one action per turn. Furthermore 2 dice attacks ARE still relatively common in Manaroo.

So if the goal is to either survive a round and get a shot off of your own, or failing that forcing the enemy to use more of their shots on the same target, would the extra hull have a greater impact? Or is LWF still the better choice?

IMO LWF can stop 0 to a bajillion hits, Hull Upgrade can only ever stop 1, if you get a direct hit, it may stop 0. You want to keep Strikers as cheap as possible, yes it's only 1 point, but that could be TIE MK II engines on a Defender for example. You will probably going to be focusing as your action, so that 3rd die may be the life saver. All you need is LWF to stop 1 hit and it's already better than Hull Upgrade.

Frame. Cheaper. More useful with focuses. Typically mine mitigates 1 or 2 damage. Being better than hull upgrade.

Forget keeping your TIE Strikers alive, they WILL die - instead equip "Targeting Computer" to give them that extra punch to ensure they deliver some damage in the first engagement. The only way to prolong the life of a TIE Striker is to keep them out of arc.... so learn to fly.

1 hour ago, Sciencius said:

Forget keeping your TIE Strikers alive, they WILL die - instead equip "Targeting Computer" to give them that extra punch to ensure they deliver some damage in the first engagement. The only way to prolong the life of a TIE Striker is to keep them out of arc.... so learn to fly.

Yep, this is what I started doing with mine. LW frame is great but the maneuverability on the Striker, especially with AA, allows some good arc dodging. Basically, load it for attack and put out more damage than what it receives before going down in a blaze of glory.

Now, as for you initial question, as said already, LWF is better than Hull point for point. LWF saves Hull points, not every time, but more times in one game than 1 extra Hull point will.

Frame can work more than once its cheaper and just all around better.

If it were hull vs SD then hull wins.

1 hour ago, Sciencius said:

Forget keeping your TIE Strikers alive, they WILL die - instead equip "Targeting Computer" to give them that extra punch to ensure they deliver some damage in the first engagement. The only way to prolong the life of a TIE Striker is to keep them out of arc.... so learn to fly.

Unless you have a way to give them TL and focus, those 2 points for targeting computer are a complete waste. Statistically you will get the same amount of hits with either, but at least with a focus, you can spend it in defense if you know that shot will kill you otherwise. Getting to shoot at all is probably better than dying. I know that a TL has a higher chance to roll crits, but it's not that much of an improvement.

56 minutes ago, tortugatron said:

Unless you have a way to give them TL and focus, those 2 points for targeting computer are a complete waste. Statistically you will get the same amount of hits with either, but at least with a focus, you can spend it in defense if you know that shot will kill you otherwise. Getting to shoot at all is probably better than dying. I know that a TL has a higher chance to roll crits, but it's not that much of an improvement.

One of my favorite builds is to run a PTL Sabacc with Targeting Computer to do just that. With AA, repositioning out of Arc is manageable and 5 dice attacks backed with TL+Focus is brutal. Also fun to fly and a great distraction for your opponent as they will attempt to go after Sabacc as the primary threat once they realize what you're up too; leaving the rest of your squad relatively alone for a turn or so. For 27 points, I'm okay with this. Alternatively, provided you were gonna take it anyway, you could VI Sabacc and pair him with something that's running Gen. Hux. Adding Fanatical Devotion to TL+Focus is nice as well and you don't have to worry about stress on the Striker. Of course, Turrets . . . hate them . . .

2 hours ago, tortugatron said:

Unless you have a way to give them TL and focus, those 2 points for targeting computer are a complete waste. Statistically you will get the same amount of hits with either, but at least with a focus, you can spend it in defense if you know that shot will kill you otherwise. Getting to shoot at all is probably better than dying. I know that a TL has a higher chance to roll crits, but it's not that much of an improvement.

There is a very simple way to give your TIE striker focus and target lock. This is the procedure:

1) Use your adaptive ailerons to manouver in such a way you and your target is in range but out of arc. Take target lock.

2) Engage, this round you take focus.

18 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

There is a very simple way to give your TIE striker focus and target lock. This is the procedure:

1) Use your adaptive ailerons to manouver in such a way you and your target is in range but out of arc. Take target lock.

2) Engage, this round you take focus.

LOL, you sound like an old timer speaking of ways before Wave 9 super action economy jousting meta.

"What, I have to spend a round setting up my attack? Preposterous!"

To the OP, if you have a ship under 20pts and your opponent is shooting at it, then its good for you. Keep them cheap. LWF does that, and also gives you chance vs TLTs and other turrets and ordnance that denies range bonus. This is the main reason to take LWF over Hull.

3 hours ago, wurms said:

LOL, you sound like an old timer speaking of ways before Wave 9 super action economy jousting meta.

"What, I have to spend a round setting up my attack? Preposterous!"

To the OP, if you have a ship under 20pts and your opponent is shooting at it, then its good for you. Keep them cheap. LWF does that, and also gives you chance vs TLTs and other turrets and ordnance that denies range bonus. This is the main reason to take LWF over Hull.

LOL!! you completely misunderstood my comment.

Not really though! I'm a meta filled with TLT and turrets, taking a turn to set up a TL/focus, particularly in a ship with only 4 Hull isn't super easy.

Lightweight Frame every day. Only one I would consider hull upgrade with would be Countdown.

Countdown with Hull Upgrade is viable though, at least in my experiences with it, it seems to only help so much. It really comes down to having a higher possibility of nullifying an attack being used throughout the ships lifespan (admittedly short that can be) vs being able to run his trick one extra time throughout the course of the game. Considering Countdown at 22 points with LWF vs Hull Upgrade at 23, 1 point can go a long way on another ship or towards the bid. I still prefer Sabacc but that isn't the discussion here anyway so I digress to not derail the original topic.

Neither, because the only Striker that's any good is Sabacc. For him, LWF.

On 6/13/2017 at 4:40 AM, tortugatron said:

Unless you have a way to give them TL and focus, those 2 points for targeting computer are a complete waste. Statistically you will get the same amount of hits with either, but at least with a focus, you can spend it in defense if you know that shot will kill you otherwise. Getting to shoot at all is probably better than dying. I know that a TL has a higher chance to roll crits, but it's not that much of an improvement.

I played 5 Scarif Defenders at my local Store Championships, going 3-2. There were so many rounds where I didn't have a shot, and wasn't getting shot, that I wished I had Targeting Computer instead of Lightweight Frame. Lightweight Frame was good, but it didn't blow my mind with how good it kept my ships alive. Most of the time the extra die rolled was a blank. Other times it was a focus result, but I had already spent my focus token defending a prior attack.

I'm not saying Targeting Computer is better. I am saying that I would be willing to try it.

Honestly, if you're trying to keep it cheap, you don't need to take any mods. Although I think Lightweight Frame is a fun default that could be a huge help, if you're pressed for two points in your squad, taking that off your Imperial Trainee would be my first suggestion.

On 6/13/2017 at 7:30 AM, Sciencius said:

There is a very simple way to give your TIE striker focus and target lock. This is the procedure:

1) Use your adaptive ailerons to manouver in such a way you and your target is in range but out of arc. Take target lock.

2) Engage, this round you take focus.

Well said.

Low pilot skill ships are best the less you spent on them. Therefor toss hull upgrade, shield upgrade, and stealth device right out the window. You either put only underwear on them (0 point upgrades) or leave them naked.

On 6/13/2017 at 0:28 PM, Goseki1 said:

Not really though! I'm a meta filled with TLT and turrets, taking a turn to set up a TL/focus, particularly in a ship with only 4 Hull isn't super easy.

Hull Upgrade is arguably better against TLT, since that's a full extra turret volley. But I agree with Marinealver: keep the Strikers cheap, and run them without mods. LWF is for ships with more than 4 HP.

On 6/13/2017 at 4:55 AM, Sciencius said:

Forget keeping your TIE Strikers alive, they WILL die - instead equip "Targeting Computer" to give them that extra punch to ensure they deliver some damage in the first engagement. The only way to prolong the life of a TIE Striker is to keep them out of arc.... so learn to fly.

O lol. Like arcs matter anymore

9 hours ago, Lobokai said:

O lol. Like arcs matter anymore

You fly in a very different environment to me if every ship you're facing has a turret and doesn't care about arc...

I will add this: it depends on your meta. Is everyone is going forward with the power creep, lightweight frame might be your best bet.

If, however, you have a few twisted souls playing around with tractor beams and ships that attack at 2 dice, then you'll often find the upgrade useless.

Thanks for the responses! I suppose I should have added the rest of the context to my thoughts though. I was thinking about swarms after reading a topic on the forums, one of the major problems people have with tie swarms is that they only have two attack dice! That isn't very much against some of the heavy hitters of the net-list meta, so the obvious solution is to bring ships with three attack dice. If you consider that the strengths of a swarm include number of attacks and ability block/clog up the enemy flight pattern several of the options have some issues. Interceptors are decried as too fragile, xwings are too expensive(by one point...), and Kihraxz aren't very maneuverable(but with title coming out.. hooo boy).

This leaves Strikers, Protectorates, Bombers with Unguided Rockets, and Scyks with Mangler Cannon if you want the maximum number(5) of 3 dice ships.

The bombers have the problem of REQUIRING the focus to even use their three dice attack, meaning they can't reposition. They do have 6 hull though, and with 2 points to spare on each you could put LWF on to get the 2.5 green dice.
Scyks, Protectorates, and Strikers all have 4 health. The scum options have 3 dice, while the striker is 3 points under budget. The Scyk and Protectorate each have advantages over each other and over the striker.

However, the Striker has the advantage of an innate pseudo-reposition that it takes without an action. This can let it take the focus action for dice modification if it needs, while still giving it lee-way to get itself in just the right position to get in the way. It also has that 3 point budget, which it can spend on Targeting Computer, Lightweight Frame, or Hull Upgrade. LWF allows it to act similarly to the protectorate, with 3(sorta) green dice and 4 health. While the Hull upgrade allows it to act like a Kihraxz with barrel roll and the Ailerons.

So within this framework of taking 5 of them as a mini-swarm does lightweight frame still make the most sense?

So, if I am reading this right, you are essentially asking if 5 Imperial Trainees with Hull Upgrade would be better or worse than 5 Scarif Defenders with LWF. In that scenario, I would take the LWF based off of the fact that LWF has a large probability of saving more than 1 hull point a game, especially using focus for defense, whereas Hull point still maxes out at 1 Hull point per game. Plus, the slightly higher pilot skill on the Scarifs may actually come in handy though doubtful.

2 hours ago, Jarval said:

You fly in a very different environment to me if every ship you're facing has a turret and doesn't care about arc...

Well in pick up games and weekly play, turrets show up in maybe a third of my matches. Very ace heavy meta.

But I guessing the OP isn't building for weekly play, if they are, my apologies

In the three competitive events I've done in 2017... it's been 70% of lists are turret heavy, and the other lists there that I don't play against seem to bare that percentage out. In fact, the most consistent thing I can say about the competitive meta is turrets, large ships, non-Imperial. I've had to face other Imperial aces... 3 times in 19 matches... and other small ship lists, 3 out of 19 (but 1 was pure turrets), the remaining 15 have all been exactly as I've said above.

Oddly enough, flying Imp aces, I'm 3-3 vs small ships and 9-4 versus large turrets, though several times my last ace has made the final kill on a large ship that certainly would have killed it if it fired back (out of arc), and two loses came where 1 more green or hull anywhere probably would have won it for me... so building for the arc-less match seems very much the right move IMO. Any little bit can help.