i was wondering,as Imperial and rebel player, wouldn't be effective a simple swarm with no specific or complex card combo swarm against this meta? I mean, by raw statistics 6 -8 ship which concentrate upon a single although big target should be a lot of damage, and with the right ship 2-3 enemy ship list should go in trouble easily... Also, rebel swarm can be a little less numerous but as resilient as an imperial swarm... What do you think?

those "top tier" list seems to focus on prolonged fight agains similar 2-3 aces list. Not that I think swarm are the absolute counter to the Meta, but a good answer. What do you think?

This last weekend, I brough 4 Alphas and an x7 delta to a tournament.

First game was as good as I could have expected- a fleeing fen, a permacloaked support, and Assaj taking a single potshot at my mostly-focused ships each round.

Unfortunately, because of fen's superior range control and mindlink, fen survived with 1 life when assaj finished off the intercepters, leaving the defender in a hopeless matchup.

Those 2-3 ships are more than capable of defeating a swarm, as they've got 3+ fully modded red dice each, high agility / better mobility / around 80% of the total life of a swarm - backed up by tokens.

Also, most top-tier lists aren't focused on prolonged games anymore, but on the alpha strike.

Assuming high player skill on both sides, as a swarm player:

You will rarely have all guns on target.

You will be vulnerable to being PS killed.

You will often be forced to engage in a sub-optimal lane; or lanes to avoid being dragged through the rocks.

You will always be on a hard-timer, as he can kill a few of your ships and then run away

You will have a hard time dealing damage against high agility targets

You will be hard-countered by stuff like Dengar/Quickdraw/Jump Masters, who can pop 1-2 of your ships per turn and often don't mind being blocked

And even though they are rare these days, arc-dodgers will also be the rock to your scissors

And then we've got Sabine and her ******* bomb stupidity.

Plain swarm can't stand meta at all but specialized mini-swarm (Green A-wing, Black TIE, TPV) can beat both meta and plain swarms.

5-6 ship swarm is good but prepare to lose 1-2 ships to the alpha strike.

In my opinion, swarms can have a better time now than they have had since I started the game back in wave 4. Vanilla swarms will have a harder time but Crackshot, Snapshot, Thread Tracers, Swarm Leader. There are options.

5 hours ago, Keffisch said:

Those 2-3 ships are more than capable of defeating a swarm, as they've got 3+ fully modded red dice each, high agility / better mobility / around 80% of the total life of a swarm - backed up by tokens.

Also, most top-tier lists aren't focused on prolonged games anymore, but on the alpha strike.

Assuming high player skill on both sides, as a swarm player:

You will rarely have all guns on target.

You will be vulnerable to being PS killed.

You will often be forced to engage in a sub-optimal lane; or lanes to avoid being dragged through the rocks.

You will always be on a hard-timer, as he can kill a few of your ships and then run away

You will have a hard time dealing damage against high agility targets

You will be hard-countered by stuff like Dengar/Quickdraw/Jump Masters, who can pop 1-2 of your ships per turn and often don't mind being blocked

And even though they are rare these days, arc-dodgers will also be the rock to your scissors

And then we've got Sabine and her ******* bomb stupidity.

Sabine bombs are actually pretty bad against swarms. You never have space to SLAM into if the swarm player doesn't screw up and reveal bombs don't really work as well as you'd think. Especially if the matchup is triple K versus Crackswarm at PS 4.

Pure stat swarms don't work. They need some amount of trickery. Crack Shot is obvious, Tracer Missiles a bit less so, but neither helps against being PS-killed - here is what does: Snap Shot. Here is a swarmy list that I played against in a VASSAL league match a while ago (maybe with a few upgrades differently, though there isn't much space for variation).

Ahsoka Tano (17)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Operations Specialist (3)
Captured TIE (1)
Sabine's Masterpiece (1)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Sabine Wren (TIE Fighter) (15)
Snap Shot (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It demolished me pretty handily, though I had the problem of playing a Quadjumper in my list that was just hard countered by Snap Shot. However the way it works is quite beautiful - since Operations Spec will generate lots of focus, you will be free to boost into anticipated range one and block positions quite often without giving up actions for your combat phase. The list has not been successful on a whole, though, even though the purchase requirements have gone down a lot with Snap Shot being featured in the Upsilon Shuttle expansion. It is not featured on meta-wing at all however, so maybe there is something to be found here.

Quote

Sabine bombs are actually pretty bad against swarms.

If by bad you mean totally insane - as you can snipe/finish off ships out of your arcs/at R1 of a TLT; while dropping Seismics, then yes - she is bad.

Again, this is also before they get to shoot.

Just now, Keffisch said:

If by bad you mean totally insane - as you can snipe/finish off ships out of your arcs/at R1 of a TLT; while dropping Seismics, then yes - she is bad.

I have played the matchup a lot of times and I can tell you this is not true. 3 Sabine K-Wings (who don't have TLTs!) are not favoured against swarms and if the swarm player is semi-decent he can even ruin your day. If you think about Miranda on the other hand - yes she wins against swarms in any loadout she has, because she can PS8 hyperarcdodge and regen. She also happens to have a bombing Sabine loadout, which isn't much better or worse against swarms than the others (on par with 3PO tanking as she is cheaper there, worse than 5 dice Homing Missile ROFLstomp).

3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Ahsoka Tano (17)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Operations Specialist (3)
Captured TIE (1)
Sabine's Masterpiece (1)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Sabine Wren (TIE Fighter) (15)
Snap Shot (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It demolished me pretty handily, though I had the problem of playing a Quadjumper in my list that was just hard countered by Snap Shot. However the way it works is quite beautiful - since Operations Spec will generate lots of focus, you will be free to boost into anticipated range one and block positions quite often without giving up actions for your combat phase. The list has not been successful on a whole, though, even though the purchase requirements have gone down a lot with Snap Shot being featured in the Upsilon Shuttle expansion. It is not featured on meta-wing at all however, so maybe there is something to be found here.

I tried a variation of that list but it didn't work that well. Ahsoka is a pointsink because she does not contribute to shooting and messes up the PS-unity that Zeb or Braylen has with Greens. Also those Greens are lacking Autothrusters which are vital against all the turrets. And finally Juke is far better than Crack Shot for A-wings.

I second the motion that A-wings really, really want Autothrusters.

13 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I have played the matchup a lot of times and I can tell you this is not true. 3 Sabine K-Wings (who don't have TLTs!) are not favoured against swarms and if the swarm player is semi-decent he can even ruin your day. If you think about Miranda on the other hand - yes she wins against swarms in any loadout she has, because she can PS8 hyperarcdodge and regen. She also happens to have a bombing Sabine loadout, which isn't much better or worse against swarms than the others (on par with 3PO tanking as she is cheaper there, worse than 5 dice Homing Missile ROFLstomp).

In the Swarm vs. Miranda matchup, a few small changes in her loadout will vastly change how she operates, and that dictates if she is strong or not against swarms. However, in general she cannot hyperarcdodge and regen, she can hyperardodge or regen. That is a very big distinction.

Miranda with TLT, Homing Missiles, C3P0, Extra Munitions and Guidance Chips will have a deadly alpha strike and will be tough in the end game with 3P0. If you want to win, you have to focus on her early.

Miranda with Adv. Slam, TLT, Bombs, and Sabine will be kiting and running the whole time, and if you follow her with a swarm, you will die. If you ignore the bait and disengage, you will be fine. As a whole, agi1 ships hate to see swarms because every attack has a decent chance of doing damage. It is a death by a thousand cuts. If I'm playing a swarm and have to choose a rebel regen opponent, I pick Miranda instead of Corran or Poe every time. Poe is almost immune to attacks from 2 red dice, and Corran's hit and run tactics make him extremely frustrating. Regardless, against any of these ships, you win/lose depending on your ability to block and focus fire in the same round.

21 hours ago, saxcloud said:

i was wondering,as Imperial and rebel player, wouldn't be effective a simple swarm with no specific or complex card combo swarm against this meta? I mean, by raw statistics 6 -8 ship which concentrate upon a single although big target should be a lot of damage, and with the right ship 2-3 enemy ship list should go in trouble easily... Also, rebel swarm can be a little less numerous but as resilient as an imperial swarm... What do you think?

those "top tier" list seems to focus on prolonged fight agains similar 2-3 aces list. Not that I think swarm are the absolute counter to the Meta, but a good answer. What do you think?

The swarm is totally a good call to combat 2-3 ship lists. I've flown a classic 8 TIE swarm with 6 Academy Pilots, Chaser, and Wampa in the last year to great effect, winning about 2/3s of my Vassal League Games with it. I've also flown 6 Academy Pilots and 1 Delta X7 Defender, and that was a very solid list. Recently, the list I developed was Quickdraw with Swarm leader, Youngster with Rage, and 4 academy pilots. It throws an unbelievable amount of attack dice in a turn, and is extremely satisfying to fly correctly. In the same vein of throwing tons of attack dice, I flew 5 black squad pilots and mauler mithel, all with snap shot. Although many attacks are not modified, 25% of the time you should be getting 2 hits on a 2 die attack. If you do make 12 two dice attacks per turn, you should expect to have 3 of those get 2 hits. It will break any ship foolish enough to face it head on, but can fly as a true swarm without formation as well.

Swarms can be frustrating because they rely on dice and force-sensitive prediction of your opponent. You're almost always only getting a single focus token per ship each round. Compare that to a mindlink'd ship with K4 droid, you're going to hope and pray that you're rolling well, because even if you block them, they've still got twice the actions you do. You have to choose maneuvers that will block a move of the opponent, but also give you a shot if they choose a different maneuver. You have to know other ships' dials better than your own, and in a game that is constantly growing, that is a very difficult task.

In the current meta, I would say the biggest strengths of the swarm lie in flying out of formation with a split deployment. Flying in a rigid formation, like a classical howlrunner swarm would, is going to be a handicap when flying against competent opponents. When I fly with 8 ships I will deploy them in two groups, 4 and 4, flying along my board edge. One group in the corner, one group slightly on my side of the middle. That way, you always engage your opponent on two fronts.

15 hours ago, Arthur_McGuire said:

I tried a variation of that list but it didn't work that well. Ahsoka is a pointsink because she does not contribute to shooting and messes up the PS-unity that Zeb or Braylen has with Greens. Also those Greens are lacking Autothrusters which are vital against all the turrets. And finally Juke is far better than Crack Shot for A-wings.

I looked it up, Ahsoka had her two points spend on Snap Shot herself, which made her the primary target, but pretty resilient as she swooped up any focus that would have been redundant.

I don't think Autothrusters are a must have if your ship is in the 20-something point range and while Juke with Snap Shot is amazing, Crack Shot isn't much worse as it allows you to attack with focus and TL in the combat phase. Zeb sounds pretty cool, though, maybe in a list like this?

"Zeb" Orrelios (18)
Autoblaster Turret (2)
Operations Specialist (3)

Captain Rex (14)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Juke (2)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Juke (2)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Juke (2)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

22 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I looked it up, Ahsoka had her two points spend on Snap Shot herself, which made her the primary target, but pretty resilient as she swooped up any focus that would have been redundant.

I don't think Autothrusters are a must have if your ship is in the 20-something point range and while Juke with Snap Shot is amazing, Crack Shot isn't much worse as it allows you to attack with focus and TL in the combat phase. Zeb sounds pretty cool, though, maybe in a list like this?

"Zeb" Orrelios (18)
Autoblaster Turret (2)
Operations Specialist (3)

Captain Rex (14)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Juke (2)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Juke (2)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
Snap Shot (2)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Juke (2)
A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Zeb is still the primary target and Attack Shuttle makes him extremely vulnerable and costly. You'll be lucky if you get to fire that Autoblaster even once. In TIE Fighter Zeb is way more cost efficient.

Sidenote for funzies: I call my version of the list "King for a Day" because while "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king", in list of PS3 Captain Rex is king. Also in latin "rex" means "king" and I've been listening to too much Battle Beast...

Another sidenote: I'm thinking of changing one Juke to Intimidation. Haven't tested it yet and I think Admiral Ackbar might have something to say about it...