Hello,

My casual play partner is thinking about how to balance Epic play between his forces (he is able to amass a much larger collection than I am; I would be the second player, though). He has the Imperial Assault Carrier, as well as the following non-huge expansions:

Core Set I, Y-wing (2), A-wing, E-wing, Sabine's TIE Fighter, Rebel Aces, Heroes of the Resistance; TIE Fighter, TIE Defender, TIE Phantom, Inquisitor's TIE, Imperial Veterans; StarViper

And I have the following to add to the mix:

Core Set II, TIE Striker, Imperial Aces; StarViper, Jumpmaster 5000

He is thinking about another huge ship but is open to something else. We have become aware that if only one side has a huge ship in an Epic match it is generally disadvantaged, though. My friend is not a huge tournament player, so upgrade cards for competitive play aren't the most important consideration, although he does often like to play with only upgrade cards he owns for simplicity, so they still factor in.

He would really like the Kanan Jarrus card from the Ghost to complete his Rey/Poe list. Could we create a balanced matchup between his Rebels with a Ghost and our Imperials with the Gozanti? If it would be better to get another huge ship, which do you think would lead to the best play experience? In the end, is it close enough that it comes down to price and preference?

Thank you!

(P.S. I read a previous thread about 'If you could only buy one huge ship ...' which helped me to understand the different ships' playstyles.)

Epic is more fun when both sides have an epic ship. It was a common problem previously that tons of fighters were actually overpowered vs a huge ship. Not sure if that is the case anymore.

I really don't think that only one Huge ship makes play unbalanced. Like Blail said, it is much better now that Huge ships start with all of their secondaries primed for combat. Gozanti vs. Ghost would be as close as you could get with the assets listed above.

Since you have an Imperial Huge ship, I suspect you would be looking at a corvette, a medium transport or a CROC. I suspect the C-ROC would be the closest in power to the Gozanti.

Another idea (since you are playing casual) is to allow each player to use scum ships as mercs.

15 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Epic is more fun when both sides have an epic ship. It was a common problem previously that tons of fighters were actually overpowered vs a huge ship. Not sure if that is the case anymore.

This was never true : huge ships (built and flown well) have always been able to compete with even mass fighter spam. Bear in mind the posters on these forums love to talk out of their asses despite having very little table experience, and that is exponentially compounded in any discussion about Epic since the vast majority of players haven't even personally tried the format. Those that have tried the format typically have such limited experience with the format that it's unlikely they were playing Epic ships correctly or to their full potential. Even without Epic ships, Epic games require a very different build strategy, deployment strategy, and play strategy compared to the standard "circle the fishbowl" style of play found in Standard. Generally speaking, many ships that are incredible in Standard (Whisper, Fat Han, Dengar, etc.) tend to be subpar in Epic.

Over the past four years I've played a lot of Epic, including in five Epic/Team Epic tournaments. I'd wager I've played over 50 games of Epic, which I suspect puts me in the top few percent when it comes to Epic Experience. I've seen lists with Two Epic ships demolish lists with over twenty-five small ships, just as I've seen lists with no Epic ships destroy lists with Epic ships. It's all in the list-building and the on-table decisions when it comes to Epic, but in my experience having (or not having) an Epic ship is not an inherent disadvantage.



* Caveat : There are some degenerate lists in Epic, such as 16 TLT (8x Y-Wings, 8x HWKs) or back pre-nerf spammed Contracted Torp Scouts (6x Torp Scouts + 4x IG88/OTHER). I've never seen these lists in action (who wants to try and accrue 16 TLT cards and eight HWKs?), but I suspect such a list warps the format. That being said, I've seem some wild lists (Quad IG88 + 16 Z-95, Double Imerial Raider, Double GR-75, 8x TIE + 8x TIE/fo + 4x TIE Bomber, etc), and still seen a variety of lists compete.

Epic is actually very easy to balance if the person making the lists is of a similar skill or if the best player makes all the lists. In the higher point lists a lot of the balance issues wash out.

That said huge ships do have some weaknesses. They melt to heavy ordnance (Bomber swarms) and mass TLT. But yes, huge ships are not underpowered. In the right list, with the right loadout they can me monstrous.

6 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

That said huge ships do have some weaknesses. They melt to heavy ordnance (Bomber swarms) and mass TLT. But yes, huge ships are not underpowered. In the right list, with the right loadout they can me monstrous.

To be fair, 16 TLTs just as easily melt massed small ships, too... Hehe.

Yeah....one of the first things FFG needs to put in their updated Epic tournament rules is a TLT limit. 12 TLTs in a 300 pt game is beyond absurd.

18 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Yeah....one of the first things FFG needs to put in their updated Epic tournament rules is a TLT limit. 12 TLTs in a 300 pt game is beyond absurd.

Around here lately we often use a houserule that limits all EPTs and Secondary Weapons to 4 Per List. This prevents some of the most degenerative spam lists, in my opinion, while also then forcing lists to include more diversity and creating even more room for other cards to get used. Because 12/16 TLTs breaks the game while also being zero fun and taking forever (lol at rolling 32 attacks/defenses every single round just for one player). Lots of other EPTs/Weapons spammed can be a big problem too, though we typically don't see such lists because very few players or even friend-groups possess all the cards needed.

It also creates a lot of financial parity , since Epic is pretty expensive to play anyways. So players don't feel any need to run out and collect more than four of any given secondary weapon or EPT card, which removes any possible Pay-to-Win aspect that comes from upgrade access. I think this is a good thing, and something most players would appreciate. Because who owns 14 Draw Their Fires? Who wants to go buy fourteen Millennium Falcons to get them? But it's an EPT that, when spammed, makes for some crazy-good damage spreading and damage mitigation, and basically makes crits blanks when defending. et cetera...

Gozanti vs Ghost would be very thematic, that's for sure!

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Epic is more fun when both sides have an epic ship. It was a common problem previously that tons of fighters were actually overpowered vs a huge ship. Not sure if that is the case anymore.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This was never true : huge ships (built and flown well) have always been able to compete with even mass fighter spam. Bear in mind the posters on these forums love to talk out of their asses despite having very little table experience, and that is exponentially compounded in any discussion about Epic since the vast majority of players haven't even personally tried the format.

And as a last point, I still love XWM at 300+ point totals on a 6x3 with or without Huge ships. Some don't consider it "epic" without huge ships, but I think it still makes it a much more dynamic and enjoyable play experience in any event.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This was never true

LOLWUT. 6 TLT-Ywings @ 150pt completely demolish any HUGE at 150pt one-on-one. So add at 150pt "fighter" screen and another 150pt to match that fighter screen and I simply cannot see where you've received your data.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Epic is more fun when both sides have an epic ship. It was a common problem previously that tons of fighters were actually overpowered vs a huge ship. Not sure if that is the case anymore.

Played some team epic at the Euros. Faced a list that had all Imperial fighters, and all aces. Soontir, Carnor, Vader, Tomax, Jonus, Rhymer, Mithel, Scourge, Hiwleunner, Vessery and a bunch of Black Squadrons with Crackshot. All flying in close formation.

They essentially just deleted anything in front of them.

21 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Played some team epic at the Euros. Faced a list that had all Imperial fighters, and all aces. Soontir, Carnor, Vader, Tomax, Jonus, Rhymer, Mithel, Scourge, Hiwleunner, Vessery and a bunch of Black Squadrons with Crackshot. All flying in close formation.

They essentially just deleted anything in front of them.

Uh, run away?

You've got 6x3; just stay away from the ace blob and hit 'em from behind, no?

Well scum has the best formation with 4 IG-88. Imperials has the best gunships for now but when the Aztuk gunship comes out the Rebels will get great gunships with Wookie Commandos. I think the Gozanti is the best support ship. The GR-75 is just too fragile and needs a lot of upgrades to be a good support ship.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Played some team epic at the Euros. Faced a list that had all Imperial fighters, and all aces. Soontir, Carnor, Vader, Tomax, Jonus, Rhymer, Mithel, Scourge, Hiwleunner, Vessery and a bunch of Black Squadrons with Crackshot. All flying in close formation.

They essentially just deleted anything in front of them.

Damnit, now I want to play epic. Thank you for that.

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

It also creates a lot of financial parity , since Epic is pretty expensive to play anyways. So players don't feel any need to run out and collect more than four of any given secondary weapon or EPT card, which removes any possible Pay-to-Win aspect that comes from upgrade access. I think this is a good thing, and something most players would appreciate. Because who owns 14 Draw Their Fires? Who wants to go buy fourteen Millennium Falcons to get them? But it's an EPT that, when spammed, makes for some crazy-good damage spreading and damage mitigation, and basically makes crits blanks when defending. et cetera...

I don't know about that. 3 K-Wings + two aggressors are already 8 TLTs. Not sure how many more TLTs you want to use really. And 14 Draw their fires seems not only excessive, but not effective either. 14 ships with ept spending all their EPT for this, fly than in a giant blob just to get blasted away by assault missiles, ion torpedoes or a good bomb?

13 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Uh, run away?

You've got 6x3; just stay away from the ace blob and hit 'em from behind, no?

Not quite as easy as that. The Imperials have fast, mobile ships. And the aces are all high PS, so deploy late (and up to Range 2 from their board edge). Nowhere to run to, baby. Nowhere to hide.

9 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Not quite as easy as that. The Imperials have fast, mobile ships. And the aces are all high PS, so deploy late. Nowhere to run to, baby. Nowhere to hide.

What about tractor beams? Seismic missiles? Bombs?

Of course, you have to know your are going to face Ace Blob. . .

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Of course, you have to know your are going to face Ace Blob. . .

Yes. Two games into an Epic tournament is a bit late to start tailoring your list. Don't get me wrong, it was still a lot of fun, just incredibly, brutally one sided. In fact, it was a lesson in how to totally dismantle an Epic list.

Ace spamming is actually a terrible strategy in Epic. Having one or two aces is great for the endgame. Anything more and you're putting points into ships that can just be deleted in one turn. My /sf Assault Missile swarm would've wrecked that list.

3 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Well scum has the best formation with 4 IG-88. Imperials has the best gunships for now but when the Aztuk gunship comes out the Rebels will get great gunships with Wookie Commandos. I think the Gozanti is the best support ship. The GR-75 is just too fragile and needs a lot of upgrades to be a good support ship.

The Bright Hope.

I ran that thing down the throat of four IG-88s and came out the other side, having subtracted two from four bots. Ok, the escort did the shooting but the Bright Hope was the sharp edge of the spear.

The GR-75 is a good ship. Flexible, effective... Just somebody else better bring the pain.

2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

The Bright Hope.

I ran that thing down the throat of four IG-88s and came out the other side, having subtracted two from four bots. Ok, the escort did the shooting but the Bright Hope was the sharp edge of the spear.

The GR-75 is a good ship. Flexible, effective... Just somebody else better bring the pain.

Bah!

You elite captains with your prestigious transports. I will take the Dutyfree any day of the week.

Make sure your epic ships are packing the balance-patch modifications, and that you've read the FAQ properly - such includes details like their starting with fully loaded guns - and epic ships do just fine.

That said, the C-ROC is a wonderfully fun ship. Highly recommended. And the Gozanti? Have the intended player study up on the deployment rules, practice with their Deployment templates, and think carefully about what the ability to choose dials and act with multiple ships at PS Moves Last(TM) means for what you load onto it... My favorites are TIE bombers packing missiles and guidance chips, picking their dials after seeing the board play, so automatically getting perfect attack lines and target locks... And then being handed focus tokens from a Fleet Officer. Things tend to go... Boom. ?

Alternative: 4x Ties. You ever noticed just how many of those suckers have bargain basement aces with situational bonus dice?

... You ever notice how easy 'situational' becomes when you pick your manoeuvres after the other guy already moved? ?

...Yeah. Gozantis are hilarious.

I appreciate the responses, folks. I guess I had misunderstand what I had read about Epic balance. My friend asked for the thread address, so he will be able to see your comments and recommendations too.

@Reiver , I'm curious about those balance-patch modifications you mention. I haven't heard of them before, but I haven't read much about Epic.

@Marinealver , I'm curious as to your classification of gunships. What would your definition be, and what is their role in Epic? My wild guess is that they're ships that can carry crew, but I'm not sure. Btw, four IGs sounds awesome. I would fly that if I could. That or an obscene number of StarVipers.

7 hours ago, Marinealver said:

The GR-75 is just too fragile and needs a lot of upgrades to be a good support ship.

I play tons of 200 point games and we specify that a small Epic ship must be taken. I find the GR75 is a very good ship in that format. The build I hate to see, and is quite light on upgrades, is

GR-75 Medium Transport (47) - GR-75 Medium Transport
Toryn Farr (6), Frequency Jammer (4), Dutyfree (2), Automated Protocols (5) (sometimes Combat Retrofit)

The Jam Bomb and Toryn Farr play havoc coupled with the fear of ramming. In a 300 point or more game I couldn't say for certain... I'd assume it's potency would be reduced and if someone just takes fighters it could dilute what it can do.