How are the Tomb of Ice "Feat" cards added to "Road to Legend"? Any special rules here, or just use them like "vanilla" Descent?

The rules for some character powers (Sir Valadir and Ronan, for example) were altered for inclusion in RTL campaigns. Ditto for some cards (Spiritwalker). Do you think the "Crushing Blow" treachery card needs any such modification for use in RTL campaigns?

TK

you´ll find special rules for the feat cards on page 5 of the toi-rulebook:

" During setup, after the Skill cards have been dealt to the hero players, separate the three Feat decks (fighting, subterfuge, and wizardry) and shuffle them individually. Then, each hero player draws the quantity and selection of Feat cards indicated by the starting skills section of his hero sheet."

Playing Feat Cards
"Each Feat card lists one or more triggering conditions that determine the timing and situation in which it can be played. Hero players may play Feat cards at any time as long as the triggering conditions have been met. After playing a Feat card, the hero player simply follows the instructions printed on the card, resolves its effects, and discards the card onto a discard pile for that feat type.
Important: Each hero player may only play one Feat card per turn. So, for example, each hero player may play one Feat card on his turn, and one Feat card on the overlord’s turn."

Drawing Feat Cards
"When a hero player activates a glyph, all hero players may draw one Feat card (unless their hero sheets state differently). Additionally, some quests’ treasure chests yield Feat cards as rewards. When a treasure chest lists a Feat card as a reward, all hero players may draw one Feat card (unless their hero sheets state differently).
When several players must draw Feat cards at the same time, they may decide among themselves what order to draw them in. If the hero players cannot agree, the overlord player chooses for them.
Each hero player may only draw from Feat decks of the types they are able to draw from during setup.

When a hero player draws the last card in a Feat deck, the hero player shuffles all the discarded cards of that feat type and creates a new deck.
If a Feat card deck runs out of cards and there are no discarded cards of that feat type, the hero players cannot draw that type of Feat card, and must draw another Feat card type, if able.
Unless otherwise stated on a player’s hero sheet, a player’s maximum Feat card hand size is four. If a player already has four Feat cards in his hand, he may still draw Feat cards when able, but then must immediately discard back down to four."

if some of the cards require special rules or are exchanged, they come with the rtl or you find an explanation in the rtl rulebook.

I think the OP in this case was trying find out how Feats are handled differently for the Road to Legend Avanced Campaign, NOT asking about the rules printed in the rulebook.

Actually, I don't think that Feats were designed for RTL. There is NEVER any mention of Feats working with RTL, even in the "Road to Legend Components" section. The following is what TOI brings to RTL:

That's all she wrote where I'm concerned. TOI is mainly an expansion to the base game with some components designed to be used with the Road to Legend advanced campaign.

10 The Road to Legend Monster Reference Cards

5 The Road to Legend Incident Cards

2 The Road to Legend Location Cards

4 The Road to Legend Dungeon Cards

1 The Road to Legend Rumor Card

I think that trying to integrate Feats into RTL is a recipe for disaster that will completely hose over the OL player. Since starting skills are handled differently in RTL, Feats either would need to be adjusted or used not at all. It's just my opinion, by I know many other game who feel the same way.

Tim- I suggest that we all try using the "Rules Questions" submission link at the bottom of the page in the hopes that our questions might be seen and answered by Kevin Wilson or Dan Clark.

Jason and I were talking this over, and for now, I'm going to recommend you give them one feat card of the same type as the skill they keep at the start, and then just playing it normally, but carrying the same hand of feats through the whole campaign, drawing one new card each time a glyph is activated. They can still draw feats from any deck corresponding to a skill they have at least a 1 (or an actual skill card) in.

KevinW said:

Thanks for chiming in Kevin!

I recently started a new campaign as a hero but I have been overlord for 2+ years. I have the ToI expansion. We started the campaign with a full hand of feat cards and it did make a difference in the first level of the dungeon. Overall I do not believe it would make a huge difference because in any given dungeon the heroes will be receiving 3 feat cards (assuming activating all glyphs). To start with 1 instead of 3 (or 2 if karnon or 4 if the other hero) does not make a huge difference in terms of the overall campaign.

However as I am stickler for the rules, and rely on FAQ's and/or Kevin's answer, I think in the next campaign we will go with the one card to start unless it is officially dealt with in an FAQ. I may not agree or think it is necessary to limit to one card starting but either way I doubt it makes a huge difference.

What's nice about Descent is that the rules are subtly flexible, so you can go ahead and rule feats in a way that works best at your table, starting with Kevin's recommendation, I gather.

KevinW said:

Excellent! Thanks! Have you given any thought to limiting "Crushing Blow" in the RTL campaigns?

TK

My group has a gentlemens rule not to use crushing blow..

Largely because the retirbution on the slob that does use it is both terrible and epic in the next campaign

ColdStone said:

In our last campaign crushing blow was used sparingly, basically if something starts to unbalance the campaign then it took the bite. For example in our last campaign the staff that ignores undying was allowed to exist for a while but was then destroyed because it just seemed too powerful. We are just about to start our second campaign and we have agreed to remove it from the start because the overlord has said if its there he'll just destroy it as soon as he gets the first opportunity. SO we might be lucky enought to gain a copper item on the first level and then lose it within about five seconds. It's all about balance i suppose.

Minti-me said:

There is little balance if the overlord has unilateral final say about it. The OL is no dungeonmaster, once something is houseruled, he should have no say about it, and not decide that he can use CB when he sees fit, but not to much not to demoralize the heroes.

In our group, we have settled for the following: crushing blow refunds 75% of the value of the crushed item (because the smithy will obviously be ashamed of his hammer of doom getting crushed after one single battle and offer you a discount or a refund), and recost the card to 2 treachery. It remains a very powerful tactical card (as it allows you to strip a hero of his armor during a lieutenant encounter), but doesn't give as much money edge as before to the OL.

The other houserule we are using is that used treachery cards go into a discard pile, in which the first card gets recovered once the pile reaches 10 cards. Both of these ensure the OL cannot go on a crushing blow galor, destroying 100% of what you get in dungeons (3 chests, 2 dices = 2 items, which get crushed on average with the 2 crushing blows in the deck, letting you keep only gold and potion from the dungeon). And it makes a dark relic better in the long term hero harassment department.

Unfortunately, in my first Campaign, Landrec the wise who got Spiritwalker got the staff in their very first chest. Every since then, the campaign has in my opinion been pretty much decided and the heroes are walking it easily with them already way ahead on conquest (which I understand is not the way it is supposed to go at copper).

However, CB will not help me. I've only just managed to get enough XP to do something useful and I upgraded my monsters. The problem with Spiritwalker is that I find it very difficult to actually get through to Landrec to get a hit on him in the first place because he is always hiding behind the other characters and everyone is always on guard.

However, I have read that in most other games, CB is way too good for the OL and a lot of people have removed it.

Paul Grogan said:

Landrec with Spiritwalker is going to be nasty. If they have other items and are walking it maybe it is time to get rid of the staff.

If you cant get past the guard actions put in an ambush card then position your razorwings or apes at the beginning of the players turn ambush, an aim CB and then hopefully your rid of the staff

It's not a tactic i'd say should be used often but if it's starting to be a total breeze for them then it might be time for it.

Minti-me said:

Whilst I would dearly love to get rid of the staff, I'm not sure how. Right now I have 1XP, so its going to be way off. In another thread, I took advice on whether to upgrade to Silver monsters or buy a point of treachery - I upgraded my humanoids.

So buying the point of treachery needed to get CB is going to be some way off. The advice you give on the Ambush card is excellent, but thats another card which I'll need 2 more treachery for the Ambush. Then I'll need to get the opportunity to have Ambush & Crushing Blow in my hand at the same time.

By which time our campaign might be over

But seriously, if this is the only way for me to get rid of the staff, then at least I now know

Paul Grogan said:

Now, I don't know how much you have played before, so apologize if this is common sense to you. But from what I have experienced both in RTL and vanilla, if you are heavily pressed, you gotta stay calm and wait it out. Keep pressuring the Heroes as much as you can without wasting too many ressources. Buy yourself time. And some point the right dungeon, and the right moment will appear. Then hit them, as hard as you possibly can. Silver monsters is a good step on the path. A Silver Beastman Party can rather easily kill a hero.

CB is the only way for the OL to affect the gold and equpiment aspect of the game. I do not understand why so many groups have house ruled this card.

Agreed granor.

We don't take any cards out of the deck.

But, to each his own, I suppose...

granor said:

I agree, I have no problem with this card. Gold level is slanted enough towards the Heroes, the OL needs something to make things even. And unless I read the FAQ wrong, the cards are not gone from the game forever, they are returned to the Treasure deck. So there is always a chance to get them back.

get wind pact and theres a good chance to get rid of CB a few times.

but if you got enough backup weapons in your backpack, i think there are worse cards then CB. yes, from time to time it gets frustrating if the OL blows off a nice item you just got from a chest, but as it was already said cards are not gone forever as they return right back to the deck.

IMO cards like "dark charm" (not sure about the rigt name, the one that makes the OL controll a heroe and kills another one with one blow from a strong tank) makes you hate the OL much more then CB.

or imagine trapmaster in the right dungeons can make a hero party wanna bang the OL´s head against the next wall.

In my opinion CB in RTL have one thing in mind that each encounter with lieutnant means one item less. But wind pact prewent this so for each action You have counter action ;P

granor said:

I totally agree with Granor. CB is just another weapon in the OL's aresenal. The OL needs to pay a significant amount of XP just to put it in the deck. and then it actually needs to be drawn and paid for in threat The heroes should be wary of it and prepare themselves for it. Wind Pact, spare weapons, even feats I suppose. It's part of the game and I see no difference between the OL using it vs. the Heroes using the bracers/range/infinite attack combo.

House rule it if you want to, but I don't think it needs any changing