Can't we just have a phase in-between the ships and squadrons just for flotillas. Like a support phase or something. Time to repair off some damage on your capitals, mess up others dials for next turn, and still move some squadrons before the squadron phase comes around. Then the ship phase truely is for fighting ships, and flotillas are still useful but not annoying.

Then if they ever added some other support ships like flotillas they could also slot in here. And it'll be like a sub-ship phase.

...how does this fix the activation game again? Large ships will be rekt without flotillas to patch up their activations. We will be back to the days of DeMSU/Cr90 spam.

How about each large ship in your fleet allows you to activate one flotilla in the ship phase? Maybe a non unique title that allows VSD's to do the same.

5 hours ago, Kikaze said:

...how does this fix the activation game again? Large ships will be rekt without flotillas to patch up their activations. We will be back to the days of DeMSU/Cr90 spam.

Shield Specialist: Officer: large/medium ships only. Attacks targeting your side hull zones with at least one shield are reduced by one damage.

Mini Derlins?

One could add a flotilla command so a ship can activate a flotilla in the ship phase and that can activate 2 squadrons.

2 minutes ago, Xeletor said:

One could add a flotilla command so a ship can activate a flotilla in the ship phase and that can activate 2 squadrons.

So if I can activate 1 Gozanti Flotilla with a Raider, how many can I activate with an ISD? Even if it is just 1, I get to activate my 4 squadrons, activate a Flotilla, it activates it's squadrons, it attacks then moves & then I attack then move?

How is this better?...

Fun for me, but my opponent may not agree.

That was my creation before wave 3-4. It was a GR-75 for the Rebel. Used between the ship phase and the squadron phase. It was really working well. And Wave 3-4 just came and... I just put them aside because I did'nt want to have two kind of the same model at differant scale. I bougth my GR-75 from a old Star Wars Game that was looking a little bit like Armada (Star Wars Miniatures Starship Battle). The scale was a little bit too big but didn't look that awfull on the map with other Armada stuff.

They had the ability to activate 2 squadrons that where not already activated in this turn and perform is action after those two. My GR-75 had Rogue, Grit-2 and heavy. This way, you can move and shoot, don't get stuck when there is only two squadrons against you and because of the size of this ''ship'' it's normal to have the mention heavy.

(Sorry for the french card, didn't make one in english)

Can't we just have a phase in-between the ships and squadrons just for flotillas. Like a support phase or something. Time to repair off some damage on your capitals, mess up others dials for next turn, and still move some squadrons before the squadron phase comes around. Then the ship phase truely is for fighting ships, and flotillas are still useful but not annoying.

Then if they ever added some other support ships like flotillas they could also slot in here. And it'll be like a sub-ship phase.

This simply do not work within the games movement mechanic. If a player can't choose in which order they move their ships you will restrict how ships can move in a very strange way and they will start crashing into one another. So this idea simply do not work in practice.

That one was for the Empire with all the same stuff as for the GR-75. I took the model of the New Order transport. The size was the same of my GR-75.

Used this way, Flotillas could be good for every one. The total point is not count with squadron, they could do their stuff like FFG did want it (like BCC, Coms Net, Slicer Tools, etc..), will not count for ship activation, you cannot use them as life boat. All the good thing without all the bad side that seems to put Flotillas in a bad spot.

I don't see where all this Flotilla hate comes from. Yes, they are very common. Almost all fleets have them. But they are clearly support ships. And IMO there presence actually makes the total different kinds of list you see more common. The may ISDs, MC80s and MC80 so much more viable as part of your list.

Also while they are hard to damage with the random shot that you just happen to get on them. If you build your list or fly your ships to try to kill them it is totally doable. They aren't that hard to kill they are just not worth the trouble it is to kill them. All it really takes in an X9 on the ship shooting at them. A damaged Bosk can almost kill them in a single shot. There are so many ways to kill them, you just have to do one of them.

And if you don't kill them then what. Worst case scenerio you don't kill their commander. Even if they are using relay to command fighters you can just kill the Lambda. Having played a list that used a lot of lambda relay, I know how vulnerable that Lambda can be when your opponents realize that they can totally shut down your ability to activate squadrons

Flotillas don't stop you from taking other ships. They aren't that powerful. They allow fleets with large base ships to participate in the activation economy part of the game.

I think the game is better with flotillas in it. By the way I still put my Admiral on my ISD, because flotillas are too easy to kill. Yup I said it too easy ti kill.

10 hours ago, rahxephon said:

Can't we just have a phase in-between the ships and squadrons just for flotillas. Like a support phase or something. Time to repair off some damage on your capitals, mess up others dials for next turn, and still move some squadrons before the squadron phase comes around. Then the ship phase truely is for fighting ships, and flotillas are still useful but not annoying.

Then if they ever added some other support ships like flotillas they could also slot in here. And it'll be like a sub-ship phase.

Like it or not, the tactics of Armada are about ship activation. Granted there are other ways to make a fleet engagement game, but this is how FFG decided to do it. I have to say that I love flotillas because I love ISDs and they really sucked when you you only had 2 or three ships to activate against a fleet with six or seven activations. It was very hard to play with all ships before we had flotillas. This fix seems to ruin what is good about them without addressing, relay fighter activation or life boats, which (though I don't consider them problems) are what people don't like about them.

a pass rule would be easier adding another phase would just make the game to long

11 minutes ago, Hrathen said:

I don't see where all this Flotilla hate comes from. Yes, they are very common. Almost all fleets have them. But they are clearly support ships. And IMO there presence actually makes the total different kinds of list you see more common. The may ISDs, MC80s and MC80 so much more viable as part of your list.

Also while they are hard to damage with the random shot that you just happen to get on them. If you build your list or fly your ships to try to kill them it is totally doable. They aren't that hard to kill they are just not worth the trouble it is to kill them. All it really takes in an X9 on the ship shooting at them. A damaged Bosk can almost kill them in a single shot. There are so many ways to kill them, you just have to do one of them.

And if you don't kill them then what. Worst case scenerio you don't kill their commander. Even if they are using relay to command fighters you can just kill the Lambda. Having played a list that used a lot of lambda relay, I know how vulnerable that Lambda can be when your opponents realize that they can totally shut down your ability to activate squadrons

Flotillas don't stop you from taking other ships. They aren't that powerful. They allow fleets with large base ships to participate in the activation economy part of the game.

I think the game is better with flotillas in it. By the way I still put my Admiral on my ISD, because flotillas are too easy to kill. Yup I said it too easy ti kill.

While I agree with you that flotillas are not a problem in and of itself I think many people are a bored by people basically just using them to gain activation for their one super ship. So you might see a few flotillas with basically nothing on them. It becomes a way of just pushing one ship toward the opponent and very little strategy.

Personally I don't think this is as strong a tactic as led to believe in practice since you waste allot of good points on a few extra activations you can use to blast at the opponent with heavier ships or invest in more squadrons.

I think flotilla heavy lists can be quite effective in tournaments where you can turn losses into very light losses and wins into high point wins. If your goal are basically to win or simply not loose then activations advantage are not that strong and certainly not when you get it from something that don't really contribute to your overall effort and that can be hunted down with squadrons if necessary. Also, most people outside the tournament scene are rarely going to own and use more than a couple of flotillas anyway.

@jorgan_cab

I'm not saying that it is the only way to play. But I have been trying to win with ISDs since they came out. Every time I play Armada without an ISD, a little part of me is sad. I just love ISDs. But an ISD is so many points that you really have to use an ISD effectively or you lose. In order to do I really like to at least be able to participate in the activation game. Before flotillas the only thing I was able to do effectily with my ISDs was make them carriers. I am far from the best player. But I feel like I have more options with flotillas rather than fewer.

As for people who play against people who have a number of unupgraded flotillas. I would just say that their turns don't take that long. The usually don't have anything to shoot at and they are either slow rolling forward or flying a quick as they can away from danger. It doesn't take that much time. I find it take way more time watching my opponent trying to navigate his speed 4 MC30 into just the right position so that they can use their black dice next round but not getting killed before then.

In my opinion ISDs are pretty much a glorified carrier with heavy guns. Their ability to activate 5-6 squadrons are so powerful you have to use it in some capacity. A few flotillas are nice but in 400p games I would only put light upgrades on an ISD, too many points tied up in one place at 400p. Personally don't like to put 25% of my points or more in one place (admiral excluded).

From a Star Wars perspective then ISDs are pretty much large carriers and assault platforms, fighters are that important in Star Wars.

When I play point games I like 600p or more and there an ISD is no problem with proper support from light cruisers and a few flotillas so I can't really tell how smaller games go.

2 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

In my opinion ISDs are pretty much a glorified carrier with heavy guns. Their ability to activate 5-6 squadrons are so powerful you have to use it in some capacity. A few flotillas are nice but in 400p games I would only put light upgrades on an ISD, too many points tied up in one place at 400p. Personally don't like to put 25% of my points or more in one place (admiral excluded).

From a Star Wars perspective then ISDs are pretty much large carriers and assault platforms, fighters are that important in Star Wars.

When I play point games I like 600p or more and there and ISD is no problem with proper support from light cruisers and a few flotillas so I can't really tell how smaller games go.

That is one way to use them, but flotillas lets them be more. Isn't more better?

I disagree with your statements about ISDs from the lore. When ever you see ISDs in the movies it is the ISD itself that is the threat not the fighter it brings. The one exception of this is the Battle of Endor, when the ISDs stay out of the fray as to not interfere with the Death Star's super laser.

Standard tournament play is 400 points. I think the most iconic ship in the game should be cool in the standard game.

From the lore there is a huge emphasis on the carrying capacity of a ship due to the importance of fighter defense. If you look at the regular fighter wing of an ISD it is almost exclusively for anti-fighter support. The ship itself is for engaging other cruisers rarely smaller ships which usually are too fast for them to catch, even if an ISD is fast.

When I mean it was a carrier I meant that it needed the fighters to fend of enemy fighters, the ship itself was meant for ship to ship combat and was very effective at that.

The way I approach an ISD is that its role is first and foremost to guide its Tie-fighter squadrons to remove any enemy bomber threat and second to attack enemy ships. Basically I will try and stay away until the enemy squadron threat is removed, after that the squadrons can operate on their own or the job is delegated to the flotillas or other support ships.

I use the Gozanti for activating bombers and other utility squadrons while the ISD with its flight controllers mass activates fighters to remove the enemy fighter threat as fast as possible.

I'm in no way saying that my way are the best way, but for me an ISD is a multi-purpose ship and should be treated as such.

I know 400p is standard for tournaments which make no real difference to me personally since I would never play in one.

From my own experience, nearly every game I play now both sides have a flotilla, 2 occasionally but not all that often in casual play. So my thinking was that if flotillas were moved into their own phase it wouldn't have had much impact in most of the games I've played where we have had 1 each for ship activations. I suppose I didn't say where I was coming from with this originally.

By putting them in a following phase you could stagger the way squadrons are activated. So when up against mass flotilla lists pushing squadrons, your ships will all have a chance to go before they do. So it gives ships squadron-ing a priority over flotillas. And if you removed them from the ship phase then in most cases then on average the number of ship activations would probably go from 4-6 to 3-5.

I also don't see why this would make everyone crash into each other. You'd just plan it like you do now, albeit a bit different.

I've played other games with alternating activation mechanics and they all have the same issue to some degree, but as long as the units are balanced enough it's fine. I just find squadrons pulled by flotillas a bit too efficient. So if they were forced to go after ships but before the rest of the squadrons if help address this. My ships would then have a chance to hit them or their squadrons first. You'd have to change how you play them of course but in some cases you could use it to your benefit, like when going second.

DeMSU and corvette spam can still be a thing. It's just now the squadron games stronger and has replaced them as the king pin. So true, this would make them relatively stronger and probably back on top. But at least it'll feel like I'm playing with proper spaceships than a were hybrid of xwing. There will always be some arrangement that's best. Perhaps rather than a separate phase, it could be that flotillas can't activate until all your other ships have gone.

Those look pretty cool @DOMSWAT911

And they've actually ended up becoming quite similar to Hera Syndulla, 28 points and all haha. Did you get a model for the coruscant carrier?

4 hours ago, jorgen_cab said:

From the lore there is a huge emphasis on the carrying capacity of a ship due to the importance of fighter defense. If you look at the regular fighter wing of an ISD it is almost exclusively for anti-fighter support. The ship itself is for engaging other cruisers rarely smaller ships which usually are too fast for them to catch, even if an ISD is fast.

When I mean it was a carrier I meant that it needed the fighters to fend of enemy fighters, the ship itself was meant for ship to ship combat and was very effective at that.

The way I approach an ISD is that its role is first and foremost to guide its Tie-fighter squadrons to remove any enemy bomber threat and second to attack enemy ships. Basically I will try and stay away until the enemy squadron threat is removed, after that the squadrons can operate on their own or the job is delegated to the flotillas or other support ships.

I use the Gozanti for activating bombers and other utility squadrons while the ISD with its flight controllers mass activates fighters to remove the enemy fighter threat as fast as possible.

I'm in no way saying that my way are the best way, but for me an ISD is a multi-purpose ship and should be treated as such.

I know 400p is standard for tournaments which make no real difference to me personally since I would never play in one.

I disagree with you about the lore. They do carry a staggering number of fighters, But that is almost an afterthought to the huge firing platform they provide. There is a lot in the lore about the Empire undervaluing fighters in general until the battle of Yavin and having to make doctrinal changes to their navy. But despite that the Star Destroyers guns were always the major strength of the Imperial Navy. At least from the perspective of many of their commanders.

1 hour ago, Hrathen said:

I disagree with you about the lore. They do carry a staggering number of fighters, But that is almost an afterthought to the huge firing platform they provide. There is a lot in the lore about the Empire undervaluing fighters in general until the battle of Yavin and having to make doctrinal changes to their navy. But despite that the Star Destroyers guns were always the major strength of the Imperial Navy. At least from the perspective of many of their commanders.

The ONLY thing that the battle of Yavin taught the Empire was that the threat of the Rebel were greater than they had previously thought and increased their focus for combat them by producing more ships and fighters. The Empire also ramped up Tie-Interceptor construction as they realized that Rebel fighters were becoming too strong for regular Tie-fighters to handle effectively.

The threat of fighters against capital ships was hardly news to anyone before this battle. Previous capital ships had also carried many star-fighters. The problem with the Victory class was known way before this and the ship was always deployed with an escort to make up for the fact it had way too little intrinsic fighter escort.

The ISD was both a carrier and a gunship. The VSD was more of a pure gunship than the ISD.

I treat both ships as pseudo carriers but the ISD more as a carrier than the VSD in general in the game, mainly because you can have multiple VSD in most fleets so they can serve in both roles more specifically. The quality of large activation's are extremely important at the start of any battle in Armada.

Also... ISD were rarely deployed into minor skirmishes, outside the movies that is. For each ISD the Empire had hundreds of other minor ships and vessels including the Victory class and other similar sized cruisers and carriers. Battles in Armada are pretty much skirmishes or a smaller part of a larger battle. The ISD was the centerpiece of a larger navy and its role was to terrorize and inspire fear in the population. Its main use was to pacify worlds rather than partake in small patrol skirmishes.

In my opinion an ISD are extremely powerful and could pretty much act without an escort of any kind and do what it needed to do, but I guess it usually was escorted by minor ships in practice.