This is the final wake up call. We are now at the point in this forum where it is a high point of contention whether Avenger, ISDs, Home One, and the MC75s EVEN HAVE GUNS OR THE CAPACITY TO HURT OTHER CAPITAL SHIPS WHATSOEVER.

I mean, we should just get rid of all ships and play 134 bombers with 266 flotillas. Git gud.

I did think of a solution for you to possibly play test Blail.

Ship shields, and hull count as double to squadron attacks. As in if a squadron attacks and only deals 1 damage, that is insufficient to damage shields/hull, it must deal 2 damage to remove 1 shield, or cause 1 point of hull damage.

it would largely remove non bombers from dealing ship damage, and drastically increase the time required for bombers to kill large ships.

Is it just me who thinks the problem mainly stems from Bomber Command Centre? I feel like if we didn't have that card, we'd see considerably less efficient attacks on large ships.

I do think we need more flak efficiency upgrades, though. Right now the most reliable flak platform is a Raider I with OE, but that black range also makes it the most vulnerable.

18 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Is it just me who thinks the problem mainly stems from Bomber Command Centre? I feel like if we didn't have that card, we'd see considerably less efficient attacks on large ships.

I do think we need more flak efficiency upgrades, though. Right now the most reliable flak platform is a Raider I with OE, but that black range also makes it the most vulnerable.

No that's exactly my whole thesis. Squadron firepower is far too accurate and too easy to deal. And ship based lists do not have counters to mass squadrons.

Although, being ableto Rieekan and havve 5 activations plus Yavaris and Gallant Haven with 134 squadrons is pretty terrifying. That's why others focus on the activation problem.

There's also the queued screaming every time someone makes a suggestion about house rules. But simply, I think BBC should switch ranges with Repair Crews. Range 1-3. edit: ACtually, i mean, R1-3. Repair crews is R1-2. But it could probably be fine even at R1-5. Or R1-3 to be safe.

And Rieekan shouldn't affect non-hero-named uniques. (Gold Squadron, Dagger Squadron).

Commanders cannot be placed on a flotilla.

Crazier choices are, not by my suggestion:

Flotillas count in squadron points.

when defending against a squadron, You may use brace and redirect without spending the tokens if those defense tokens are refreshed and unspent.

23 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

I did think of a solution for you to possibly play test Blail.

Ship shields, and hull count as double to squadron attacks. As in if a squadron attacks and only deals 1 damage, that is insufficient to damage shields/hull, it must deal 2 damage to remove 1 shield, or cause 1 point of hull damage.

it would largely remove non bombers from dealing ship damage, and drastically increase the time required for bombers to kill large ships.

Haha, that's a huge straight 50% nerf to squadron damage. ... I don't like squadron damage, but I'm not ready to think a 50% decrease is what is needed to balance he force. See above. Reduced BCC range, and free use of green Brace and Redirect. This is situational lower than 50% reduction.

Im atm playtesting a Rebel version of the europeans winner:

375/400 - No objectives always first
Mc80 Battle Cruiser
-Antilles
-Gunnery team
-SW7
-Eng Team
-XI7
-XX9
-Mon Karren

Gr75 MT
-Dodonna
-Comms net
-Quantum storm

Gr75 MT
-Slicer tools
-Bright hope

Gr75 MT
-BCC
-Boosted comms

131/400
Hera
2xScurrg
Wedge
X-wing
Tycho
A-wing
HWK-290

Engineering on turn 3 on for the Mon Karren (8 to spend) has proven it been able to survive most of the nasty bombing rounds and it hits real hard delivering double crits almost every shot with XI7 + XX9.

Still struggling with squadron composition: I sometimes managed Hera to work, sometimes not. Being escorted and providing rogue to the Grit Scurrgs has proven lethal to flanking ships and guarding the rear while Mon Karren does his job. Also lethal at sudden bombing rounds during squadron phase, given you activate first next turn and can push those scurrg again trough a transport squadron command. Tycho and the A is just to keep busy the potential squadron threat for a turn or two.

25 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

I did think of a solution for you to possibly play test Blail.

Ship shields, and hull count as double to squadron attacks. As in if a squadron attacks and only deals 1 damage, that is insufficient to damage shields/hull, it must deal 2 damage to remove 1 shield, or cause 1 point of hull damage.

it would largely remove non bombers from dealing ship damage, and drastically increase the time required for bombers to kill large ships.

from a lore perspective, non bomber squadrons also do a significant amount of damage, Scarif: the TIE swarm puts the deflector shields down to 50% on the MC-75

I'd be ok with the range if BCC didn't stack, I think. It's the ability to essentially hunt for the result you want, rather than mitigate against a bad roll, that really kills me.

The unpopular opinion I sometimes bring up us that squadron cap should be a quarter, rather than a third, of total points. It's too easy to squeeze in crazy value into those extra 34 points, for either side. It also reduces the need for more flotillas, which means more capital ships.

5 minutes ago, Visovics said:

from a lore perspective, non bomber squadrons also do a significant amount of damage, Scarif: the TIE swarm puts the deflector shields down to 50% on the MC-75

And completely blows up some CR90's.

12 minutes ago, xerpo said:

And completely blows up some CR90's.

yeah, at the end of the day, the difference between ships and starfighters is HOW MANY blasts they put out, TIEs have 2, X.wing 4 and a torpedo slot, then ISDs have a huge amount of Ion Cannons, Quad Turbolasers, Dual Heavy Turbolasers...

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

This is the final wake up call. We are now at the point in this forum where it is a high point of contention whether Avenger, ISDs, Home One, and the MC75s EVEN HAVE GUNS OR THE CAPACITY TO HURT OTHER CAPITAL SHIPS WHATSOEVER.

I mean, we should just get rid of all ships and play 134 bombers with 266 flotillas. Git gud.

Ask @BiggsIRL if Imperial Star Destroyers have guns.

In the Star Wars universe fighters have always been one of the biggest threat to capital ships so I have no problem with squadrons being effective.

Although flotillas should never have had a command rating of two in the first place even if I don't think they are terribly good at it either.

If you run a carrier heavy fleet you want QUALITY activation and LOTS of anti-fighter capacity, that is realistic. You always need some rather potent anti-fighter capability... this is the reason why an Imperial Star Destroyer carried a full wing of Tie fighter and this was why the Victory class Star Destroyer could never deploy alone since it carried too little star fighters.

Someone who runs many flotillas will surely loose the squadron war against someone that runs Quality squadron activation as a defensive screen, say with Flight Controllers and activate five or six fighters per activation... you will just be toast from regular Tie-fighters at 8p a pop throwing out four or five attack dice with a re-roll.

I often just don't care for the Bomber Command as Imperials, one turn extra bombing do the same trick which is no problem when the opponent fighter screen in squished. As the Rebels I like it more since they have more ships with Bomber ability and is worth allot more on an X-Wing than a bomber with a black die. And why are you not attacking the opponent Bomber Command if they are so problematic, I rather stop the bombers though. You can't stop them all at once but such is life and you must sacrifice some to gain the ultimate price.

If I run a carrier oriented fleet I also try my best NOT to engage the enemy capital ships until I established supremacy among the squadron engagements, I let the opponent come to me in that case... it will depend in the mission as well of course. If it is a campaign and I'm attacking I will make **** sure my forces are overwhelming and strong enough to attack and take initiative in the fight.

In my opinion you should rather play with 600p instead of 400p... it is more fun. More squadrons AND more ships... We usually have like five to seven ships per side and 15-20 squadrons in such games. It just become so much more Epic that way and typical Star Wars.

1 hour ago, xerpo said:

Im atm playtesting a Rebel version of the europeans winner:

375/400 - No objectives always first
Mc80 Battle Cruiser
-Antilles
-Gunnery team
-SW7
-Eng Team
-XI7
-XX9
-Mon Karren

Gr75 MT
-Dodonna
-Comms net
-Quantum storm

Gr75 MT
-Slicer tools
-Bright hope

Gr75 MT
-BCC
-Boosted comms

131/400
Hera
2xScurrg
Wedge
X-wing
Tycho
A-wing
HWK-290

Engineering on turn 3 on for the Mon Karren (8 to spend) has proven it been able to survive most of the nasty bombing rounds and it hits real hard delivering double crits almost every shot with XI7 + XX9.

Still struggling with squadron composition: I sometimes managed Hera to work, sometimes not. Being escorted and providing rogue to the Grit Scurrgs has proven lethal to flanking ships and guarding the rear while Mon Karren does his job. Also lethal at sudden bombing rounds during squadron phase, given you activate first next turn and can push those scurrg again trough a transport squadron command. Tycho and the A is just to keep busy the potential squadron threat for a turn or two.

If you think this is a rebel version of it, you have missed the idea behind the list from Ben.

You don't have a carrier, you don't have enough squadrons and you don't have enough bombers against ships.

The thing, Jorgen, is that while I most certainly agree that campaign play is awesome (and I myself favor 700-800 points), I believe the majority of players actually posting on these boards are primarily tourney players (myself included) and that will color any discussion of the game, as tourney play is seen as the yardstick by which the game is measured.

24 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

The thing, Jorgen, is that while I most certainly agree that campaign play is awesome (and I myself favor 700-800 points), I believe the majority of players actually posting on these boards are primarily tourney players (myself included) and that will color any discussion of the game, as tourney play is seen as the yardstick by which the game is measured.

Which has the effect of distancing casual players from getting into the game, unfortunately. Those who play casually don't post too often (or even read the forums) and thus quite a few people are playing and enjoying the game without even realizing that 5 activations is 'mandatory'. They understand the concept of out-activating your opponent, that comes naturally to any player. But for example my opponent thinks 5 is 'Yeah, I've out-activated him' rather than the bare minimum. So I'll reiterate my common stance of: this is all in tournament play only. I know this is obvious, especially in this thread, but I feel like I must make it clear, since some people may take it as a blanket statement.

Having not played in tourneys, I can't add too much more, except by pointing out that the Euros winner had an ISD (right?) and that in the top 4 was a Liberty (which generally is considered rare) and an ISD. Interdictors have won competitions, and PT106 is 'famous' for flying ISDs. . . so I don't think this applies to tourneys either. Or rather, it's hyperbole that refers to tourneys. . .

42 minutes ago, Tokra said:

If you think this is a rebel version of it, you have missed the idea behind the list from Ben.

You don't have a carrier, you don't have enough squadrons and you don't have enough bombers against ships.

Thats the Rebel version adapted to the rebel version. Sorry we dont have a broken rhymer. Bombers can manage themselves with rogue and the main threat is not the bombers, is the Mon Karren. Sorry, we cant activate 6 squadrons at a time. The rest of the squadrons can be activated through the flotillas.

As I said this is an adaptation based mainly in the type of ships and activations. Not a copy paste like people like to do here. It's unbeaten so far.

If i wanted an exact copy of it id go swarm head hunters, 4 Ywings 2 intel and some named pilots, but, i could not manage that amount of squadrons because rebels sucks at mass activating squadrons. You are the ones getting the quasar tough, so its going to be just the same concernig this at least 1 more wave.

1 hour ago, Darth Lupine said:

The thing, Jorgen, is that while I most certainly agree that campaign play is awesome (and I myself favor 700-800 points), I believe the majority of players actually posting on these boards are primarily tourney players (myself included) and that will color any discussion of the game, as tourney play is seen as the yardstick by which the game is measured.

One of the reasons I post is to make some sense on the board so casual players who do read know they are NOT alone and sometimes I feel like tournament players actually think they are in majority in playing the game which they are not. Or that they somehow are that important, I know some think they are. Most player that casually play have no clue about the tournament scene or care anything about it and will be bummed reading on a forum like this.

Therefore it is good to have someone with a different perspective post since allot of the hyperbole about broken features mainly occur in tournament play and not when just surviving is enough and scoring is not important. It make for very different tactics and list building in general.

In tournament games it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to not arrive at a few possible builds to win, they are almost only about two things... META and SKILL. If you are skilled and just happen to pick the army that are good against the current meta you can win big and loose small. That's it, not surprising at all.

When you play in a scenario or campaign setting or just casual play with limited amount of ships and resources that is not a problem... It is not smart to make people, not interested in tournament play, think the game is not balanced or that large number of activation is the only way to win.

I also think it is important to convey that house rules are OK, if not mandatory to have fun with any game of this nature. Change things up... add your own missions or scenarios etc... you can still play "competitively" against each other and have fun at the same time.

It is also my belief that tournament play are NOT the only measure of game balance, if is ONLY a measure of game balance for tournaments... that's it. If you don't play for points the game balance shift and become different. Rieekan for example are rather weak in a campaign setting where you do everything you can to save a damaged ship and hyperjump before they die or move an Ace away with only one hit point left. Sacrificing your ships and aces in the campaign is not a smart move so his ability is much weaker, still good but you can't play to those strength as much as you can in a tournament environment. Demolisher are kind of the same but different. So you see, even here the balance just changed. If you also allow ships to hyperspace in regular one on one games and deny VP that way that also change balance quite allot.

All that said I do recognize that there are some issues with activation advantage that FFG need to look into, especially for tournament play. For casual play you can correct it yourself or in some cases it might not be a problem at all since no one are ever going to run four or five Gozanti because no casual player would buy that many in the first place.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This is the final wake up call. We are now at the point in this forum where it is a high point of contention whether Avenger, ISDs, Home One, and the MC75s EVEN HAVE GUNS OR THE CAPACITY TO HURT OTHER CAPITAL SHIPS WHATSOEVER.

I mean, we should just get rid of all ships and play 134 bombers with 266 flotillas. Git gud.

Already happened. Paging @Tokra to the thread.

*EDIT* oops he's already here. That's what I get for just reading the first post and trying to be funny.

I've never played in a tourney and may never. Threads like this do nothing but scare me away from the idea. I've never seen a problem with the game played casually. It's a game after all and is meant to be fun. If tournament play bothers people, why can't people just play with a few friends in a casual environment. My group has never used reiken. I've never seen him played and I've never played him because it doesn't sound fun. No one in my tiny group owns more than 2 flotillas per side.

Since ive never played in a tournament I am ignorant of the rules but couldn't you just tell your opponent that no more than 2 flotilla can be put in a fleet or something? Can't we remind players that make these lists that people dislike that the game is meant to be fun ad that winning isn't everything? I play the game to have fun, not to win at all costs. This isn't the NFL, guys. If you take a miniatures game that seriously then you might have some deep issues to work out. Play to have fun and also build your lists to be fun, not to win at all costs. Also build your list so that it is also fun for your opponent to play against. Rant over lol.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This is the final wake up call. We are now at the point in this forum where it is a high point of contention whether Avenger, ISDs, Home One, and the MC75s EVEN HAVE GUNS OR THE CAPACITY TO HURT OTHER CAPITAL SHIPS WHATSOEVER.

I mean, we should just get rid of all ships and play 134 bombers with 266 flotillas. Git gud.

Blail, your ability to completely miss jokes is uncanny. I mean all of us miss the fact that someone is joking with us from time to time, but you're nearly perfect at missing the joke*. What is your secret?

*The joke, in this case, being that nobody honestly believes that capital ships don't have guns. They're playing around and seeing what kind of silliness they can argue for.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This is the final wake up call. We are now at the point in this forum where it is a high point of contention whether Avenger, ISDs, Home One, and the MC75s EVEN HAVE GUNS OR THE CAPACITY TO HURT OTHER CAPITAL SHIPS WHATSOEVER.

I mean, we should just get rid of all ships and play 134 bombers with 266 flotillas. Git gud.

Oh, THAT'S why an ISD is dagger shaped. SPACE JOUSTING!

Blail has nearly gone "full admiral neilson" at this point and I think we all know it's Ben's fault.

6 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

I did think of a solution for you to possibly play test Blail.

Ship shields, and hull count as double to squadron attacks. As in if a squadron attacks and only deals 1 damage, that is insufficient to damage shields/hull, it must deal 2 damage to remove 1 shield, or cause 1 point of hull damage.

it would largely remove non bombers from dealing ship damage, and drastically increase the time required for bombers to kill large ships.

What about making flotillas only have 1 squadron value?

7 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Blail has nearly gone "full admiral neilson" at this point and I think we all know it's Ben's fault.

Oh god, not this again. ???

2 hours ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

What about making flotillas only have 1 squadron value?

I was thinking they shouldn't count as ships when checking to see if you still have ships on the table. So you can run five flotillas and a Demolisher but you're tabled if Demolisher dies. Most of the problems people talk about stem from the excessive number of flotillas, so this adds an element of extreme risk to trying to play the lists people want gone from the competitive scene. It also doesn't require changing the text on any cards, since it just gets added to the rules just like "flotillas don't issue a damage card when colliding with a non-flotilla ship" did.

23 minutes ago, Hockeyzombie said:

"flotillas don't issue a damage card when colliding with a non-flotilla ship"

ISDs should have a rule on that style on an insta-kill, Scariff showed how anything from GR-75s to other ISDs are destroyed by the spear-headed ship