Just wondering is the Arc Caster still considered a secondary weapon when it is flipped to charging as it currently has no firepower? I mean if a secondary weapon was reduced to 0 firepower it is still a secondary weapon because it has a fire power value, but since the recharging side has no firepower value and munitions failure is drawn 2 scenarios come up.

1. Treat it as a secondary weapon regardless of which side is up. You may in fact discard it if you want to keep another equipped secondary weapon.
2. It is not a secondary weapon while charging side is up. If there are no other secondary weapons flip munitions failure face down as instructed on the card. However if you do have a secondary weapon (i.e. Snap shot) you cannot discard Arc Caster in its place unless it is charged side up.

So which one of those rulings do you think is the correct one when interacting with munitions failure?

#2

Rules Ref page 16 "Secondary weapons are upgrades that feature the “AttAck:” header in their card text. They provide additional types of attack other than a ship’s primary weapon. "

It doesn't matter what slot a thing resides in, if it doesn't have the attack header it isn't a secondary weapon. While it is flipped it isn't a secondary weapon anymore.

13 hours ago, Smitty said:

#2

Rules Ref page 16 "Secondary weapons are upgrades that feature the “AttAck:” header in their card text. They provide additional types of attack other than a ship’s primary weapon. "

It doesn't matter what slot a thing resides in, if it doesn't have the attack header it isn't a secondary weapon. While it is flipped it isn't a secondary weapon anymore.

Seconded.

By the rules, I agree that is NOT a secondary weapon, but only because the way the rules are specifically written (no ATTACK header). I would argue that it still is one, just flipped, but can't really make much of case with the way the rule book has it spelled out. Nice catch!

On 6/9/2017 at 11:31 PM, Smitty said:

#2

Rules Ref page 16 "Secondary weapons are upgrades that feature the “AttAck:” header in their card text. They provide additional types of attack other than a ship’s primary weapon. "

It doesn't matter what slot a thing resides in, if it doesn't have the attack header it isn't a secondary weapon. While it is flipped it isn't a secondary weapon anymore.

This is 100% correct, see "extra munitions" (torpedo upgrade, not a secondary weapon) or "snap shot" (elite pilot talent upgrade, is a secondary weapon) as other examples of this rule in play.

Sadly a flipped Arc Caster doesn't let the Outrider fire its primary weapon. Outrider is worded to refer to a cannon upgrade card, without concern for whether it's a secondary weapon. Though even if you could use your primary while the arc was disabled, you'd be crazy to field that in the first place, since your weapons would be useless until you got into range 1.

50 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Sadly a flipped Arc Caster doesn't let the Outrider fire its primary weapon. Outrider is worded to refer to a cannon upgrade card, without concern for whether it's a secondary weapon. Though even if you could use your primary while the arc was disabled, you'd be crazy to field that in the first place, since your weapons would be useless until you got into range 1.

When did the Outrider come into this discussion. Or maybe the better question is "why did the Outrider come into this discussion?" Arc Caster/Outrider seems like a pairing that would be worse that fielding Fel's Wrath.

We were discussing the curious wording that makes the arc caster behave differently for the classic Munitions Failure, creating a tidy little exploit (though one that's a bit hard to put to deliberate use). The obvious next exploit I'd want to consider is whether this allows toggling the Outrider title. Sadly it doesn't, and even if it did, you'd be crazy to field an outrider with a range 1 weapon so it too would be rather hard to put to good use.

Sorry, I hadn't intended to seem off-topic or derail the thread.

nigeltastic had pointed out that Extra Munitons and Snap Shot are strange for their slots. There's also Chardaan Refit and "Hot Shot" Blaster, probably a few others. Munitions Failure interacts curiously with all of these (snapshot and blaster are vulnerable despite occupying slots that are not traditionally secondary weapons, while munitions and refit are not vulnerable despite being in weapon slots). I wonder what other cards/effects interact curiously with these special case upgrades, and if there's any fun exploits to be had, especially strategically useful ones.

Again, probably not the right time/place to explore that. Sorry to take the thread off-topic, I'll leave.

It makes some sense in a way not that it is explained.

On 6/13/2017 at 4:40 PM, Wazat said:

We were discussing the curious wording that makes the arc caster behave differently for the classic Munitions Failure, creating a tidy little exploit (though one that's a bit hard to put to deliberate use). The obvious next exploit I'd want to consider is whether this allows toggling the Outrider title. Sadly it doesn't, and even if it did, you'd be crazy to field an outrider with a range 1 weapon so it too would be rather hard to put to good use.

Sorry, I hadn't intended to seem off-topic or derail the thread.

nigeltastic had pointed out that Extra Munitons and Snap Shot are strange for their slots. There's also Chardaan Refit and "Hot Shot" Blaster, probably a few others. Munitions Failure interacts curiously with all of these (snapshot and blaster are vulnerable despite occupying slots that are not traditionally secondary weapons, while munitions and refit are not vulnerable despite being in weapon slots). I wonder what other cards/effects interact curiously with these special case upgrades, and if there's any fun exploits to be had, especially strategically useful ones.

Again, probably not the right time/place to explore that. Sorry to take the thread off-topic, I'll leave.

I guess while we are talking technicalities what about discarded mechanics? Thanks to the Scavenger Crane and Quinn Jast the discard rules are flipping a card over. It seems like FFG is going to have to make a whole section and errata on discarded cards and dual cards.

No it is already done, when you discard a dual card, you put it under your ship. You can't flip a dual card face down, it as no "official" up side. So it can't never be seen as "discarded" but still there.

On 6/13/2017 at 4:40 PM, Wazat said:

you'd be crazy to field an outrider with a range 1 weapon

You haven't seen my friend fly Autoblaster Dash Rendar. It's actually scary good against aces.

Dash Rendar + VI + Autoblaster + Outrider + Navigator + Engine Upgrade = 54 points. He changes his maneuver and repositions at PS 9. Doesn't need much in the way of dice mods because of Autoblaster. And because he plays in close, he can sometimes block enemy movements or intentionally bump if he can't easily arc dodge.

On 2017-06-13 at 7:17 PM, StevenO said:

When did the Outrider come into this discussion. Or maybe the better question is "why did the Outrider come into this discussion?" Arc Caster/Outrider seems like a pairing that would be worse that fielding Fel's Wrath.

My take would be that someone was trying to man'splain a question that wasn't asked...

edit: nevermind