Ok, sounds good. I'll concede that! Makes Confidence almost worth it!

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

Yeah, but I don't think it's legal. Force Illusion: discard cards from the top of your deck equal to damage to block that damage. The official ruling is that you can't use it if you don't discard all the cards it says to.

This isn't quite right. The entry for Force Illusion says:

If you discard less cards than the amount of damage being dealt (by running out of cards in your deck), then none of the damage is blocked.

It doesn't say you can't use it. It says you don't block the damage if you don't discard the full amount. If you have 1 card in your deck and 3 incoming damage, you can trigger Force Illusion, discard Force Illusion, discard the last card in your deck, and not block the damage. No idea why you would, but you can

Very broadly, Destiny has a "Do as much as possible" rule for effects. When an ability activates, you do as much as you can (respecting any "Do X to Y" structure, or "Then" keywords). There is no precheck or precondition that requires any or all of the ability to make some change to the game in order to use it.

9 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

This isn't quite right... There is no precheck or precondition that requires any or all of the ability to make some change to the game in order to use it.

I literally conceded that I was wrong on that one an hour ago, dude!

Thanks for the clarification though. Very helpful run-through of the rules.

On 6/13/2017 at 10:03 AM, nismojoe said:

Admiral Ackbar
-After an opponent plays or discards the last card from their hand, they choose and deal 2 damage to one of their characters.
*if your opponent plays Cheat and uses their last remaining card in their hand, Ackbar will not trigger because their
last card is swapped with a card from the discard pile and their hand is not reduced to zero cards

Finn
-You can attach any weapon to this character, ignoring play restrictions.
-You can include Red Villain weapons and vehicles in your deck.
*you may not play cards such as Kylos Ren's Light Saber on Finn because he cannot be paired with a Villain

Obi-Wan Kenobi
-Guardian
-Before this character is defeated, you may play a Blue card from your hand or discard pile for free.
*if you defeat your opponent's last character with Obi-Wan's triggered ability via resolving a card such as Willpower to place the last damage on them, you win, unless that other
character is also an Obi-Wan, in which case you lose
*if you play a card such as My Ally is the Force, Obi-Wan is deafeated and all of his dice are removed from play after you resolve the card. Then you may take your Ambush action.

Couple of issues here.

Ackbar: Playing Cheat as your final card will trigger Ackbar. When you play Cheat it goes to limbo, which makes your hand empty, triggering Ackbar. A lot of people misunderstood the timing here and thought the Return of the Jedi/Outer Rim Smuggler loop wouldn't work. The errata shows otherwise.

Finn: It's mostly the way you phrase it, but you could actually play Kylo Ren's Lightsaber on Finn. There's currently no way to get the card into a deck with Finn, but if there ever is in the future Finn would bypass the play restriction on it.

Obi-Wan: In the first bullet, the Obi-Wan(A) dies/uses Willpower to kill last opponent still works even if the other character is Obi-Wan(B). (A) is already defeated, so (B) cannot do anything to re-defeat him. (B) will be defeated while still in the "before (A) is defeated window" and the game will end.

For the second point, it's probably worth adding an (if able). Obi-Wan could be defeated after you have claimed, which would force you to pass the extra action.

15 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I literally conceded that I was wrong on that one an hour ago, dude!

Thanks for the clarification though. Very helpful run-through of the rules.

I was mostly correcting the misunderstanding of Force Illusion But it never hurts to reiterate the "Do as much as possible" rule, it confuses a LOT of people.

2 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Couple of issues here.

Ackbar: Playing Cheat as your final card will trigger Ackbar. When you play Cheat it goes to limbo, which makes your hand empty, triggering Ackbar. A lot of people misunderstood the timing here and thought the Return of the Jedi/Outer Rim Smuggler loop wouldn't work. The errata shows otherwise.

Finn: It's mostly the way you phrase it, but you could actually play Kylo Ren's Lightsaber on Finn. There's currently no way to get the card into a deck with Finn, but if there ever is in the future Finn would bypass the play restriction on it.

Obi-Wan: In the first bullet, the Obi-Wan(A) dies/uses Willpower to kill last opponent still works even if the other character is Obi-Wan(B). (A) is already defeated, so (B) cannot do anything to re-defeat him. (B) will be defeated while still in the "before (A) is defeated window" and the game will end.

For the second point, it's probably worth adding an (if able). Obi-Wan could be defeated after you have claimed, which would force you to pass the extra action.

I disagree.

Ackbar vs cheat. If someone is actually playing cheat as the last card in their hand, they are an idiot. The scenario I posted is if Cheat is played with that player having 1 card left in their hand. That card is swapped with a card from their discard so their hand is never reduced to 0. Ackbar does not trigger.

Finn vs Kylo Saber. As the current rules stand, you cannot get a Kylo Saber into a deck with Finn, therefore you cannot play it on him. If rules in future change, the material will be updated.

Obi-Wan scenario was already beaten to death in a Facebook group post recently.

6 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

I disagree.

Ackbar vs cheat. If someone is actually playing cheat as the last card in their hand, they are an idiot. The scenario I posted is if Cheat is played with that player having 1 card left in their hand. That card is swapped with a card from their discard so their hand is never reduced to 0. Ackbar does not trigger.

I'd agree with this.

Also important to note Ackbar only triggers when you play or discard the last card, not just because the hand is empty. So if the hand is empty from some way other than playing or discarding, it wouldn't trigger Ackbar.

While Cheat is in Limbo and you're switching those cards someone thinks the hand is empty for a split second, it wouldn't trigger Ackbar because switching is not playing or discarding.

4 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

Ackbar vs cheat. If someone is actually playing cheat as the last card in their hand, they are an idiot. The scenario I posted is if Cheat is played with that player having 1 card left in their hand. That card is swapped with a card from their discard so their hand is never reduced to 0. Ackbar does not trigger.

Finn vs Kylo Saber. As the current rules stand, you cannot get a Kylo Saber into a deck with Finn, therefore you cannot play it on him. If rules in future change, the material will be updated.

Obi-Wan scenario was already beaten to death in a Facebook group post recently.

Ah, misread the Cheat slightly. All good there, although I think you're overcomplicating it. Cheat doesn't discard or play the card you exchange, so it doesn't even meet the trigger condition for Ackbar.

As I said, it's a matter of phrasing. You say you can't play Kylo's Saber on Finn, which is not correct. Just suggesting clarity.

Must have been in a group I wasn't following, but if that's the conclusion of the group, it's very solidly wrong. We have direct from Lukas that you cannot re-defeat Obi-Wan once he is in the defeated state. Nothing the second Obi-Wan can do will do anything to change the "before" resolution flow.

9 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Ah, misread the Cheat slightly. All good there, although I think you're overcomplicating it. Cheat doesn't discard or play the card you exchange, so it doesn't even meet the trigger condition for Ackbar.

As I said, it's a matter of phrasing. You say you can't play Kylo's Saber on Finn, which is not correct. Just suggesting clarity.

Must have been in a group I wasn't following, but if that's the conclusion of the group, it's very solidly wrong. We have direct from Lukas that you cannot re-defeat Obi-Wan once he is in the defeated state. Nothing the second Obi-Wan can do will do anything to change the "before" resolution flow.

Nah, that's the point of this write-up. To try and answer future questions. There will be people that think cheat can trigger Ackbar. We should address those questions sooner rather than later.

I still don't follow you on Finn. If you can show me how a Kylo Saber winds up to be a playable card on Finn, I will update.

Yes. Correct on Obi-Wan. In an Obi vs Obi double death trigger, the first one loses.

1 minute ago, nismojoe said:

I still don't follow you on Finn. If you can show me how a Kylo Saber winds up to be a playable card on Finn, I will update.

Kylo's Saber cannot be included in a deck with Finn, but it could actually be played on him. There's a difference between saying it can't be played on him, and saying it can't be included in the same deck. One is talking about play restrictions (which he bypasses) and the other is talking about deck restrictions (which he doesn't).

3 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

Yes. Correct on Obi-Wan. In an Obi vs Obi double death trigger, the first one loses.

What's the logic on this?. The timeline looks like this (bottom is future, so flowing down):

|--------------- Before Window for (A) defeat
|(A) plays Willpower, targets (B)
| Willpower resolves
|--------- Before Window for (B) defeat
|(B) does something, for completeness assume it causes damage
|(B) resolves the damage, but A is already in the defeated state, nothing happens
|--------- Before Window for (B) defeat
|(B) is defeated
|--------------- Before Window for (A) defeat
| <-- Obi-Wan (A) is defeated

Everything that happens is happening and resolving before the first Obi-Wan is defeated. Since you can't re-defeat Obi-Wan, nothing B does will trigger anything.

36 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Kylo's Saber cannot be included in a deck with Finn, but it could actually be played on him. There's a difference between saying it can't be played on him, and saying it can't be included in the same deck. One is talking about play restrictions (which he bypasses) and the other is talking about deck restrictions (which he doesn't).

What's the logic on this?. The timeline looks like this (bottom is future, so flowing down):

|--------------- Before Window for (A) defeat
|(A) plays Willpower, targets (B)
| Willpower resolves
|--------- Before Window for (B) defeat
|(B) does something, for completeness assume it causes damage
|(B) resolves the damage, but A is already in the defeated state, nothing happens
|--------- Before Window for (B) defeat
|(B) is defeated
|--------------- Before Window for (A) defeat
| <-- Obi-Wan (A) is defeated

Everything that happens is happening and resolving before the first Obi-Wan is defeated. Since you can't re-defeat Obi-Wan, nothing B does will trigger anything.

I will fight you tooth and nail. With the current rules, you cannot play Kylo Saber on Finn. There is currently no way to get KS in your hand, deck, or discard pile. You can GET a Luke or Kylo Saber onto Grievous. You want me to type something like, you cannot GET a Kylo Saber onto Finn, but I'm not doing that.

For the Obi thing (im banned from the group currently so i cannot retrace my steps), it was agreed up that ObiA dies and triggers lets say a willpower to the other 1hp remaining ObiB. Simultaneously, the willpower card is now resolved and ObiB's before trigger triggers. ObiB cannot trigger until willpower is resolved because of its effect. ObiA is now immediately defeated because willpower is resolved. ObiB's trigger interrupts the game, but the game is over. Since Lukas or FFG haven't officially ruled on this, it is definitely open to more interpretation.

Sorry gents, I've been occupied. I'll get around to updating the OP soon.

1 hour ago, nismojoe said:

I will fight you tooth and nail. With the current rules, you cannot play Kylo Saber on Finn. There is currently no way to get KS in your hand, deck, or discard pile. You can GET a Luke or Kylo Saber onto Grievous. You want me to type something like, you cannot GET a Kylo Saber onto Finn, but I'm not doing that.

I think it would be better to remind that Finn's ability only applies to red villain cards, so you couldn't include Kylo's Saber in the deck. Saying anything about playing it on him is irrelevant. It's also future-fragile - if a card comes out in EoW that somehow lets you include it, your statement is now wrong. I'm honestly not sure why changing it is such a big deal to you, or even why it needs to be addressed at all. But if you do, it should focus on what matters (deck restriction) not playing the card. You also can't play a Flamethrower or DT-29 on him, do those need clarification too?

1 hour ago, nismojoe said:

For the Obi thing (im banned from the group currently so i cannot retrace my steps), it was agreed up that ObiA dies and triggers lets say a willpower to the other 1hp remaining ObiB. Simultaneously, the willpower card is now resolved and ObiB's before trigger triggers. ObiB cannot trigger until willpower is resolved because of its effect. ObiA is now immediately defeated because willpower is resolved. ObiB's trigger interrupts the game, but the game is over. Since Lukas or FFG haven't officially ruled on this, it is definitely open to more interpretation.

If this is the case, then Obi-Wan(A) loses no matter who he Willpowers to death. If (B) can't trigger until he's defeated, which is after resolution, then anyone won't be defeated until resolution, and (A) would die.

14 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

I think it would be better to remind that Finn's ability only applies to red villain cards, so you couldn't include Kylo's Saber in the deck. Saying anything about playing it on him is irrelevant. It's also future-fragile - if a card comes out in EoW that somehow lets you include it, your statement is now wrong. I'm honestly not sure why changing it is such a big deal to you, or even why it needs to be addressed at all. But if you do, it should focus on what matters (deck restriction) not playing the card. You also can't play a Flamethrower or DT-29 on him, do those need clarification too?

If this is the case, then Obi-Wan(A) loses no matter who he Willpowers to death. If (B) can't trigger until he's defeated, which is after resolution, then anyone won't be defeated until resolution, and (A) would die.

If an ObiWan can kill a player's last character with his ability, he wins. Death is immediate, except in the case of ObiWans ability.

Why cant you play a dt29 on Finn?

21 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

If an ObiWan can kill a player's last character with his ability, he wins. Death is immediate, except in the case of ObiWans ability.

Why cant you play a dt29 on Finn?

Sorry, bad example with the DT29 Stick to Flamethrower... is it really necessary to clarify that every weapon that can't be included in his deck can't be played on him?

Back to Obi-Wan, I think those are contradictory rulings. If the decision is that as soon as the card you play resolves you're out of his "before" window and he dies, then adding another "before" window doesn't change that. At best, you would then say that the two defeats occur simultaneously, and the battlefield controller would decide. A second Obi-Wan wouldn't change that.

There's definitely a lack of clarity around the specific timing of before windows, when you resume the normal flow, and what the state may be when that happens. But the reasoning given is inherently inconsistent.

Well, I did have someone play a flamethrower on Finn against me once. I made them discard it.

I guess I was more specifically comparing Luke and Kylo's sabers to try to include an example of the play restriction clause.

I'm having trouble understanding the debate here... Finn has two separate parts of his ability:

1) you may include red villain weapons and vehicles in your deck

2) you can play any weapon on him, ignoring restrictions

I think everybody's on the same page with part (1), and part (2) seems to override all rules. So if there was some new card that let you put weird cards in your deck, Finn could absolutely use them. If this were real:

then a flamethrower could in fact be played on Finn.

edit: to avoid confusion, I'll clarify that the above is a custom card that I created for fun, it's not part of the game (yet!), but I put it here because it was already uploaded to my account, and I thought it would demonstrate the example well.

If there was ever a battlefield that allowed you to, for example, Include any weapon in your deck, ignoring affiliation restriction. Then Finn would be allowed to play Kylo's saber.

6 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

If there was ever a battlefield that allowed you to, for example, Include any weapon in your deck, ignoring affiliation restriction. Then Finn would be allowed to play Kylo's saber.

Exactly, which is why saying " you may not play cards such as Kylos Ren's Light Saber on Finn" is incorrect (or at least doomed to eventually become incorrect). You're specifically using the game term "play", which relates to his "ignore play restrictions" when the issue is about what he lets you include in the deck.

It may or may not become incorrect. As of right now......it is correct.

On 2017-6-16 at 1:03 AM, Kieransi said:

If this were real:

then a flamethrower could in fact be played on Finn.

If this were real, then a Flame Thrower could be played on anyone, since it doesn't have any play restrictions.

11 minutes ago, Bron Ander Haltern said:

If this were real, then a Flame Thrower could be played on anyone, since it doesn't have any play restrictions.

I wasn't the one who was arguing that flamethrower couldn't be played on Finn, others picked the flamethrower example.

The point still stands - you can play any weapon on Finn, ignoring play restrictions, so if there's a way to get it in your deck, you can play it on him.

Yes, I wasn't clear on that in the previous post, but I meant to reinforce your point, as I totally agree with Buhallin's way of looking at it.

Yes. Go to a tournament and fill out a deck list and play Kylo's Saber on Finn. If you don't get DQed, I'll concede.

Gents! Is there a way I could distract you from this otherwise fascinating topic? It seems to have run its course.