1 minute ago, WuFame said:

I can think of two top eight World's finishers in just my circle of friends that have stated they are moving away from the game unless major changes occur. I'm not saying FFG should fold to a little complaining, but this is far past the point of a few people being unhappy.

I'm personally excited for the Hammerhead, not because it will work well in the meta, but because I personally just love smaller ships. But if a FAQ doesn't errata some things soon, I can't imagine being all that pumped about wave 7.

if i understand this correctly then this is more important than some mediocre players like me complaining. this is *winners* beieving they dont have enough fun even though they win.

The campaign I'm trying to design for my group of players are mainly a gateway to play interesting scenarios in Armada, X-Wing and Imperial Assault. We want all the games to be able to effect each other and the campaign, the campaign in itself is not the goal, playing the asymmetric scenarios are, getting attached to your characters and the story that unfold is.

I wonder if it is not the case that most people on these forum are rather competitive players and perhaps not representative for the larger group of people that just play with friends... who never visits the forums or never see a tournament that just play for fun a few times a year and play like a hundred different other games... Armada is only one among hundreds of games I play every year so I don't take it that seriously.

I do however understand that it must be boring when you see one or two dominating lists do all the winning in tournaments or rather places high on them. Fact is you can win all your games and still place rather poorly so winning is not enough in a tournament. It takes different lists to win consistently OR win big and loose small. It is sometimes irritating to read that you must run activation 5-6 list to win... no that is certainly not the case. You must run such lists if you like to win tournaments because that is about winning big and loosing small... not win in every game you play kind of list. I would like to see a tournament where the only goal is winning, make it a knock out or something. I'm very sure lists will turn up a bit more varied then, now you need a list that is balanced and can take on everyone not just most lists. It might come down to player skill even more... although games might be more defensive and not everyone like that.

4 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I can think of two top eight World's finishers in just my circle of friends that have stated they are moving away from the game unless major changes occur. I'm not saying FFG should fold to a little complaining, but this is far past the point of a few people being unhappy.

I'm personally excited for the Hammerhead, not because it will work well in the meta, but because I personally just love smaller ships. But if a FAQ doesn't errata some things soon, I can't imagine being all that pumped about wave 7.

I'm curious... what is it that needs to be Errated?

I'm sticking with Armada. I'm not selling my stuff. I just can feel the tremors in the force. The players described above are NOT alarmists spoiled brats. They are good people who really like this game and want it to succeed.

There is just so much going for Armada. So much of it is sound. I hope it can survive long enough. (it is not dead yet!)

6 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

if i understand this correctly then this is more important than some mediocre players like me complaining. this is *winners* beieving they dont have enough fun even though they win.

Correct. Some very solid players have seen the exact same issues in the game that have been commented on recently.

Q, the two-time National Champion, even made mention of the issue with flotilla activation and the stale meta all the way back in December. It's only gotten worse since then.

Just now, jorgen_cab said:

I'm curious... what is that needs to be Errated?

That really depends on who you ask. I'm of the opinion an IA-style pass solution is the only way to fundamentally fix the issue with the game. Every other issues stems from the fundamental requirement for activations. Sure, Rieeken probably does need to be adjusted. Relay is probably a bit too good, TRCs might need to be exhaust, Rhymer might need to be close rang eonly. But the omnipresent nature of these things isn't because these things are simply overpowered, it's because they fit too well in the real meta, which is more activations = better. And what gives you the most bang for buck activation-wise? Flotillas. And what do flotillas do best. Push squadrons. And as long as I'm pushing squadrons, would it be nice if the squadrons could shoot at medium range, or stay alive until the end of the round? You bet.

The problem extends beyond "nerfing squadrons" or "fixing Rieeken". The problem is that at this point the activation war is too important to the game. Making flotillas trash won't change that, people will just go back to DeMSU and TRC90 swarms. The only fix is to fix the activation game, and that's what many veteran players have come to the conclusion of.

If I had to put my money on anything, it would be that FFG will never go to a pass-style, because it's too radical a change to the game. So really, at this point, I just hope some unforseen way to fix the game comes along, otherwise my community will wither away and a great game and pastime will be lost.

1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

I'm sticking with Armada. I'm not selling my stuff. I just can feel the tremors in the force. The players described above are NOT alarmists spoiled brats. They are good people who really like this game and want it to succeed.

There is just so much going for Armada. So much of it is sound. I hope it can survive long enough. (it is not dead yet!)

Indeed. For me, I don't think it will ever die. . . at a certain point either I'll stop buying or they'll stop producing, but come the time, I'll be trying to sell the idea to my grand kids, hoping for a game every weekend. . .

As long as we don't forget that we are suggesting house rules for you in particular, I'd also suggest you house rules. For me and many others the game is just fine as it is right now concerning the activations. There is nothing you cannot do as well as your opponent.

The rest is a not-so-veiled Rieekan cry, again. All-over-again.

3 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

I'm sticking with Armada. I'm not selling my stuff. I just can feel the tremors in the force. The players described above are NOT alarmists spoiled brats. They are good people who really like this game and want it to succeed.

There is just so much going for Armada. So much of it is sound. I hope it can survive long enough. (it is not dead yet!)

Armada will never be sold for me either. I think its a great game at it's core, and I look forward to showing it to friends for years to come. I also still enjoy Campaign play.

1 minute ago, xerpo said:

The rest is a not-so-veiled Rieekan cry, again. All-over-again.

You know... except for my reply. Rieeken could use a little adjustment IMO, but he's not the real reason people are walking away from the game.

4 minutes ago, WuFame said:

You know... except for my reply. Rieeken could use a little adjustment IMO, but he's not the real reason people are walking away from the game.

I know but oh man, it is so frustrating to get into a thread that reads :"some members of my local group think of leaving Armada..." and see Rieekan all over the place again, there is some kind of paranoia around this guy...

I really expected real troubles about people that cannot play because of life issues as it is happening in my place.

Just now, WuFame said:

That really depends on who you ask. I'm of the opinion an IA-style pass solution is the only way to fundamentally fix the issue with the game. Every other issues stems from the fundamental requirement for activations. Sure, Rieeken probably does need to be adjusted. Relay is probably a bit too good, TRCs might need to be exhaust, Rhymer might need to be close rang eonly. But the omnipresent nature of these things isn't because these things are simply overpowered, it's because they fit too well in the real meta, which is more activations = better. And what gives you the most bang for buck activation-wise? Flotillas. And what do flotillas do best. Push squadrons. And as long as I'm pushing squadrons, would it be nice if the squadrons could shoot at medium range, or stay alive until the end of the round? You bet.

The problem extends beyond "nerfing squadrons" or "fixing Rieeken". The problem is that at this point the activation war is too important to the game. Making flotillas trash won't change that, people will just go back to DeMSU and TRC90 swarms. The only fix is to fix the activation game, and that's what many veteran players have come to the conclusion of.

If I had to put my money on anything, it would be that FFG will never go to a pass-style, because it's too radical a change to the game. So really, at this point, I just hope some unforseen way to fix the game comes along, otherwise my community will wither away and a great game and pastime will be lost.

I understand the activation issue... most games of this sort have them. My suggestion which should work is an over-watch mechanic. It will not remove the tactical element of more activation but it can no longer be abused. Most successful games that I have played similar to this one have something of that sort.

Passing is a bit overkill and I do think that more smaller units should matter from a tactical perspective.

Another thing while we're at it...

Armada is actually in great shape when you think about it in other FFG Star Wars games terms. (I mean rules not sales. For that X-Wing will always be king)

XWing had a huge FAQ that FAQ'd the **** out of stuff.

IA. OMG IA has had serious list homogeneity. (Jabba says "oh ho hoho")

Destiny...well destiny sounds fun and people say it is fun, but omg, that seems like a lot of money, and a few new unbalanced cards could break it (a la Magic)

2 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

I understand the activation issue... most games of this sort have them. My suggestion which should work is an over-watch mechanic. It will not remove the tactical element of more activation but it can no longer be abused. Most successful games that I have played similar to this one have something of that sort.

Passing is a bit overkill and I do think that more smaller units should matter from a tactical perspective.

I actually did see your overwatch mechanic, which, as a diehard XCOM fan, I enjoyed.

4 minutes ago, xerpo said:

I know but oh man, it is so frustrating to get into a thread that reads :"some members of my local group think of leaving Armada..." and see Rieekan all over the place again, there is some kind of paranoia around this guy...

I really expected real troubles about people that cannot play because of life issues as it is happening in my place.

I can definitely understand how the same whines can get frustrating. It sucks. I try not to overdo it myself, I only pop in on the occasional discussion.

9 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Another thing while we're at it...

Armada is actually in great shape when you think about it in other FFG Star Wars games terms. (I mean rules not sales. For that X-Wing will always be king)

XWing had a huge FAQ that FAQ'd the **** out of stuff.

IA. OMG IA has had serious list homogeneity. (Jabba says "oh ho hoho")

Destiny...well destiny sounds fun and people say it is fun, but omg, that seems like a lot of money, and a few new unbalanced cards could break it (a la Magic)

my nickname is Kikaze. an l5r character. i couldnt wait to play l5r again... only to realise it is ffg's l5r.

quick history reminder:

wave 1. very few ships/cards to define a meta. we thought gencon was king, until we saw it wasnt.

wave 2: very good meta. ackbar seemed king for very little while, but it balanced out until Demsu and Rhymerball.

then flotillas came, because ffg needed to hurt demo BUT didnt want to admit demolisher title was a mistake that would be awesome even with a 30-ish points cost(threat range being the alpha and omega of wargaming and all). an awesome idea, a support ship that withstands black dice...

until it started being bought with next to zero support upgrades as mere activation padding.

and power creep brings more power creep.

personaly in gaming i am a fan of ultra-restrictive systems that assume all players will minmax and hence restrict them (example of a restriction. example, not suggestion: 0-1 flotillas per list). gaming systems with too much liberty sound nice and all until you remember that a game with ultra tight balance can be played casualy with houserules, but the opposite is not true for games with lacking balance.

If they want to stop playing, and you do too, then sell your stuff and stop playing. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If you are not having fun, don't play Armada, find a different hobby or game instead.

I had this problem with 7th edition 40k. I was just tired of the competitiveness, density of rules, and the requirement for having specific units in specific combinations that made it end up being a multi-thousand pound game of rock, paper, scissors.

I'd recommend playing Imperial Assault on campaign mode if you want a break and something a little different but still want Star Wars.

3 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I actually did see your overwatch mechanic, which, as a diehard XCOM fan, I enjoyed.

Yes... one game where it works pretty well, another turn based game as a good example.

3 minutes ago, D503 said:

If they want to stop playing, and you do too, then sell your stuff and stop playing. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If you are not having fun, don't play Armada, find a different hobby or game instead.

I had this problem with 7th edition 40k. I was just tired of the competitiveness, density of rules, and the requirement for having specific units in specific combinations that made it end up being a multi-thousand pound game of rock, paper, scissors.

I'd recommend playing Imperial Assault on campaign mode if you want a break and something a little different but still want Star Wars.

I think a lot of people here are people still finding ways to have fun, but are mostly looking for a way to bring the game back to a state it existed in before it felt so "solved"

I do second Imperial Assault though. I very much enjoy skirmish and the campaigns in a casual setting. I also have a lot of fun painting it.

2 hours ago, D503 said:

If they want to stop playing, and you do too, then sell your stuff and stop playing.

Be careful what you wish for.

I think the reason people are here and commenting, and that so many of the comments (flotillas! squadrons! same-y lists!) sound the same is that people have all found the dominant solution to be various flavors of activation spam, and that they love Armada overall and want it to be fixed. If you are posting, you are still engaged, if you are still engaged, you still care.

When was the last time the lord of tubs or Drunk Tarkin posted? It doesn't happen anymore. If the game remains un-fun, people disengage, and as people disengage, you don't get them back. 8th ed 40k is coming out. There used to be a group of about 10 of us here who played 40k, which you referenced, until 7th edition. Now, at best, two of us will pick up 8th. If that. Probably zero, as the reality is we really only have each other to play with.

If people start quitting Armada in size, it's over for those who also still want to play; the question is just when.

2 hours ago, xerpo said:

I know but oh man, it is so frustrating to get into a thread that reads :"some members of my local group think of leaving Armada..." and see Rieekan all over the place again, there is some kind of paranoia around this guy...

I really expected real troubles about people that cannot play because of life issues as it is happening in my place.

I mentionned Rieekan once. The real problem my friends and I feel are the boring meta of activating flotillas after flotillas just to delay your one actual ship. Stop thinking this is about Rieekan and Rieekan only.

2 hours ago, D503 said:

If they want to stop playing, and you do too, then sell your stuff and stop playing. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If you are not having fun, don't play Armada, find a different hobby or game instead.

I had this problem with 7th edition 40k. I was just tired of the competitiveness, density of rules, and the requirement for having specific units in specific combinations that made it end up being a multi-thousand pound game of rock, paper, scissors.

I'd recommend playing Imperial Assault on campaign mode if you want a break and something a little different but still want Star Wars.

did you read my post? I never said I wanted to stop playing. I said that if all my friends with whom I play on a regular basis stop playing, I'll have no real other choice than to stop playing myself because at this point Armada will just accumulate dust on the shelves.

And I said I'm fed up with FFG driving people to that point.

@Sybreedit is worth pointing out - the Vassal community is fantastic. one thing I have never regretted is being a part of that.

it is NOT for everyone, but if you can figure it out it is quite rewarding.

I think the obvious answer is obvious: There needs to be a strong change to neuter activation spam. Activation spam is ultimately the issue that is causing the most harm in the game. It is the primary contributor to the existing balance issues and the driver of the competition meta in every conceivable way. Even lists that aren't at maximized activations are playing to flip the activation advantage in their favor, which enables their win.

Maybe this will require an "Armada 1.5" or even "2.0." But there is a fundamental truth that to prevent players from leaving the game, FFG needs to take decisive actions quickly while players are still holding on in their local communities.

Do I get to state that our local community is running fine and people are playing what they want, usually somewhere between 4 and 6 ships, and activation spam isn't a problem? I mean, it sucks for the OP, but so far this entire thread has come down on the side of "Armada better change right now or else I'm quitting RIGHT NOW YOU GUYS!" and I'm not seeing that up here. It sucks, and I sympathize with you all who are having trouble in your communities, but just in case anyone thinking of getting into Armada thinks the game is either bad or dying..... it's not? Our community is actually growing up here.

I'm not trying to say everything's fine, but everyone's doom and gloom posts before we get a new wave in (handwave) 2-3 weeks is really kinda bumming me out. I get that apparently everyone and their moms is bringing 7 flotillas a side with one Demolisher and 134 points of X-wings, but that's not the only way to win the game. There are other lists and options and all. If things are so bad that everyone in your meta is bringing 200 points of flotillas to make sure they get the last activation, how do you build a list to take advantage of that fact and fight it? That's what I would start looking towards, personally. (I say, of course, without having that problem up here. I'm not sure a "can't beat em, join em" approach will make things better for you.)

Just now, geek19 said:

Do I get to state that our local community is running fine and people are playing what they want, usually somewhere between 4 and 6 ships, and activation spam isn't a problem? I mean, it sucks for the OP, but so far this entire thread has come down on the side of "Armada better change right now or else I'm quitting RIGHT NOW YOU GUYS!" and I'm not seeing that up here. It sucks, and I sympathize with you all who are having trouble in your communities, but just in case anyone thinking of getting into Armada thinks the game is either bad or dying..... it's not? Our community is actually growing up here.

I'm not trying to say everything's fine, but everyone's doom and gloom posts before we get a new wave in (handwave) 2-3 weeks is really kinda bumming me out. I get that apparently everyone and their moms is bringing 7 flotillas a side with one Demolisher and 134 points of X-wings, but that's not the only way to win the game. There are other lists and options and all. If things are so bad that everyone in your meta is bringing 200 points of flotillas to make sure they get the last activation, how do you build a list to take advantage of that fact and fight it? That's what I would start looking towards, personally. (I say, of course, without having that problem up here. I'm not sure a "can't beat em, join em" approach will make things better for you.)

A lot of us are still playing, and still want to play every game night. That said, the meta is making the game stale and frustrating for players who want to play more casually, because even in casual games the supreme advantage of the activation meta makes a lot of fleets nearly unplayable. When you factor in new players who are told that their first purchases should be 2-3 flotillas instead of the big iconic ships, that's a real issue for keeping the game going.