The overall state of the game where activating flotillas only to delay activations is getting ridiculous to a point where some of the guys with whom I play regularly think of selling their stuff after wave 6 if the situation is not improved. They also complained about FFGs lack of professionalism with the handling of FAQs and the overall balance of the game (Rieekan being anti-fun, flotillas being 50-75% of most lists' ships. Squadrons weren't really mentionned funnily enough)

If they start selling their stuff, I might be forced to do the same as I don't really have other friends who want to get into the game.

There isn't much of a point to the thread other than to vent my own frustration regarding this. I'm also a bit fed up with FFG's constant secrecy and lack of communication with the community. Plus, some of their balance decisions really didn't help the game grow in a good direction. I hope they start to realize they have a game with big potential and that communication with the community isn't a bad thing...

Simple solution.

House rules, if you have a close group and don't need competitions just change the rules to suit.

6 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

Rieekan being anti-fun, flotillas being 50-75% of most lists' ships. Squadrons weren't really mentionned funnily enough

I hear your frustration, but can you expand on these points?

For the 50% of your list, do you mean total ships or pointswise? And what's stopping you from taking something that isn't half flotillas? CR90 swarms still work, as does Ozzel, Raiders, Gladiators, and ISDs.

Rieekan being anti-fun - Do you mean that you have a hard time with Rieekan Aces, or beating Rieekan, or what? Like, we as a community would love to help you work on this, but I can't really do anything when you say he isn't fun as I don't really know how to work on that.

if you have a small group why not change up lists and try out older ships, new combs, or even mess with point limt to bigger games 500 points and up. My small group comes in with something new to test out just about every week.

35 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

The overall state of the game where activating flotillas only to delay activations is getting ridiculous to a point where some of the guys with whom I play regularly think of selling their stuff after wave 6 if the situation is not improved. They also complained about FFGs lack of professionalism with the handling of FAQs and the overall balance of the game (Rieekan being anti-fun, flotillas being 50-75% of most lists' ships. Squadrons weren't really mentionned funnily enough)

If they start selling their stuff, I might be forced to do the same as I don't really have other friends who want to get into the game.

There isn't much of a point to the thread other than to vent my own frustration regarding this. I'm also a bit fed up with FFG's constant secrecy and lack of communication with the community. Plus, some of their balance decisions that really don't help the game grow in a good direction. I hope they start to realize they have a game with big potential and that communication with the community isn't a bad thing...

I feel the pain man, my group is on the verge of collapse. I think if I wasn't constantly nagging some one to come play or helping the local store organize events they'd be gone by now...

I have to agree with the others here.

Put house rules in effect.

No more than X flotillas or challenge opponents to games that have no reason to use them. For instance, my group likes to do 600 point "no squads" battles. Without all the fuss of squads we can blow through a match within the standard hour and a half 2 hours time limit and it's a blast. Plus without anything to activate flotillas are really just dead weight on a 600 point fleet. Maybe try doing some team play, and match teams based on who brought too many flotillas.

I think the biggest problem you may run into with house rules is eventually, people want to compete, and typically competing means going back to flotilla+squads

but it's a start while FFG sorts their ****

59 minutes ago, Benji1980 said:

Simple solution.

House rules, if you have a close group and don't need competitions just change the rules to suit.

This is the answer, Armada is a great game that can give you a lots of fun, you don't have to stick to the competitivity of your lists, just house rule something that you all like and have much fun with it.

For example, I'm preparing a CC campaign with a friend in which each will have 3 fleets. We will build those fleets with all the different stuff we got. I only have 2 Gozantis (I'll be playing Empire), so I will only be able to have a single fleet with 2 flotillas and the other 2 fleets without any, or 2 fleets with 1 flotilla each and the 3rd without flotillas.

I find those restrictive builds really fun as you are forced to try different combination of ships and upgrades than you normally would use

Yeah. Same thing. I refuse to play the game in any sort of competitive way if wave 6 does not bring a shift or rebalance. That's it. The game is unbalanced and not worth it if you like ships and not squadrons.

Yet you'll constantly get triggered screaming anytime anyone brings up exactly what house rules to implement or ask for suggestions from this forum.

No rebalnce nerfing or new counter cards to mass squadrons then thats it. I won't play the game in any sort of competitive way anymore. And since there aren't enough people to do campaign I guess just won't play at all.

House rule one floatilla per capital ship

I agree with the house rules approach. The game is a fantastic game. It does not need the tournament scene for that to be true (in my humblest of opinions). You could easily create criteria like <100 points in squads -or- only 1 flotilla.

13 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. Same thing. I refuse to play the game in any sort of competitive way if wave 6 does not bring a shift or rebalance. That's it. The game is unbalanced and not worth it if you like ships and not squadrons.

Yet you'll constantly get triggered screaming anytime anyone brings up exactly what house rules to implement or ask for suggestions from this forum.

No rebalnce nerfing or new counter cards to mass squadrons then thats it. I won't play the game in any sort of competitive way anymore. And since there aren't enough people to do campaign I guess just won't play at all.

As I've said before, I have yet to experience any unbalance, but then I do not play competitively.

I must say that if you don't play to win, or rather don't care about beating everyone as much as playing, then I think you'll find no house rules necessary. I mean, it's not fun to fly mostly flotillas (as least for me), so if you play without thinking of if you can win a tournament with your list, and just play casually, you'll only play fun lists. If your entire group is angry about flotillas, then why are they flying flotillas in casual play? I have yet to fly more than 2 flotillas in a fleet, and I only own 1 for each side. Every list is different in our games.

5 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

As I've said before, I have yet to experience any unbalance, but then I do not play competitively.

I must say that if you don't play to win, or rather don't care about beating everyone as much as playing, then I think you'll find no house rules necessary. I mean, it's not fun to fly mostly flotillas (as least for me), so if you play without thinking of if you can win a tournament with your list, and just play casually, you'll only play fun lists. If your entire group is angry about flotillas, then why are they flying flotillas in casual play? I have yet to fly more than 2 flotillas in a fleet, and I only own 1 for each side. Every list is different in our games.

The thing about flotillas isn't imbalance, but boredom, they are so widespread. I hear what you're saying about playing fun lists, and I definitely do this all the time. Corellian Conflict in particular solves much of the sameyness by only making it about win/loss as well as forcing uniques to be spread out. However, I don't think it's fair to chastise players who operate within the parameters of the game to make a really good list by calling them "unfun" or "play to win." To some, the fun of a game is unlocking very strong combos, and playing as well as they possibly can. Not all players with this mindset are unpleasant to play against, and who is to say their way of enjoying the game is "wrong?"

I myself love playing both ways, and if its not a tournament, I leave the mean stuff at home. But, I do know if I don't bring flotillas, or at least strive for a minimum of 5-6 activations. due to the nature of activations, I am at a disadvantage to anyone else who has that. The game should strive to appeal to as many types of gamer as possible, while making the rules in such a way that more things are viable. Just one more opinion, of course, haha.

6 minutes ago, puntspeedchunk said:

I agree with the house rules approach. The game is a fantastic game. It does not need the tournament scene for that to be true (in my humblest of opinions). You could easily create criteria like <100 points in squads -or- only 1 flotilla.

The problem is most of the tournament players are also the ones working hard to build and grow communities, and provide content for players. The game is great without a tournament scene, true, but I think it does need a healthy tournament scene to see continued growth and success.

27 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

As I've said before, I have yet to experience any unbalance, but then I do not play competitively.

I must say that if you don't play to win, or rather don't care about beating everyone as much as playing, then I think you'll find no house rules necessary. I mean, it's not fun to fly mostly flotillas (as least for me), so if you play without thinking of if you can win a tournament with your list, and just play casually, you'll only play fun lists. If your entire group is angry about flotillas, then why are they flying flotillas in casual play? I have yet to fly more than 2 flotillas in a fleet, and I only own 1 for each side. Every list is different in our games.

If you haven't played competitively what do you wish to respond with in a post about the competitive nature of the game?

Why is this even related?

3 hours ago, Sybreed said:

The overall state of the game where activating flotillas only to delay activations is getting ridiculous to a point where some of the guys with whom I play regularly think of selling their stuff after wave 6 if the situation is not improved. They also complained about FFGs lack of professionalism with the handling of FAQs and the overall balance of the game (Rieekan being anti-fun, flotillas being 50-75% of most lists' ships. Squadrons weren't really mentionned funnily enough)

If they start selling their stuff, I might be forced to do the same as I don't really have other friends who want to get into the game.

There isn't much of a point to the thread other than to vent my own frustration regarding this. I'm also a bit fed up with FFG's constant secrecy and lack of communication with the community. Plus, some of their balance decisions really didn't help the game grow in a good direction. I hope they start to realize they have a game with big potential and that communication with the community isn't a bad thing...

Bummer Sybreed. I still love this game, and I'm very hopeful that FFG addresses many of the issues a lot of players are feeling. I don't think the problems are too bad, but this is a game, and if people are not thoroughly enjoying it, that is a problem.

I still have faith that FFG is working on this, but I do feel like they don't have a lot of time before they start to lose the base of players. I'm personally VERY ready to mess around with Wave S*x. The Quasar and Hammerhead will be new enough to really spark interest.

My hope is that Armada can gain a few more ships after that and that the variety is enough to keep it going.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

If you haven't played competitively what do you wish to respond with in a post about the competitive nature of the game?

Why is this even related?

I'm not sure why you're belittling his post. I think it is relevant.

I agree that Star Wars Armada is at its best in casual play. I play competitively because I like the game that much. However, the Corellian Conflict showed me personally that Armada really shines in campaigns (IMO).

In my opinion playing to win in a tournament is not the same as creating a fleet which aim to stay alive and not loose which I think is the more fun way to play. That is how you approach the game in a campaign because not loosing is far more important than winning and there are clear differences in the two mentalities.

This is why I enjoy to play scenarios or rather games where one part created the setting and both forces, these usually give more of a tactical challenge where you don't have to bother about trying to outwit someone in creating a "list" that can trump someone else. List building will often come down to just scissor beats paper and the game is almost decided before you put the forces on the table, I don't like it that way. Some people enjoy that part, I know...

Not saying it is the wrong way, just that it is not for me.

For me it is all about the objective and not about actually beating someone or even killing their ships and therefore it is often more fun playing scenarios or campaigns because it is more or less about obtaining the objective thereby deny the enemy the spoils of war. It also feel a bit more realistic to me since basically every confrontation are about obtaining an objective not really to just neutralize enemy forces, objectives give a very important strategic benefit. In reality keeping your losses low while obtaining your objective is seen as the most efficient thing you can do, even if that means lower losses to the enemy. It is the objective that get you that closer to the final victory, or denying the objective to the enemy. Most games of I bring 400p you bring 400p are usually about who kills the most ships which I find a bit bland.

I would suggest that you start to play in some home made campaign setting or start playing fun scenarios where the objective is more important than destroying ships. Most scenarios also have hidden restrictions not available to the other side, upgrades are hidden... even aces are hidden until revealed etc. In some scenarios you might need to send troops into a station but one restriction are that your Star Destroyer must survive, if you loose it you loose whether you take the station or not, that is not known to the other side so they will not focus on it so they might win without knowing it if you are not careful. In many scenarios we have it that more than 75% of your ships must survive or it is a failed mission, usually when the opponent are at a disadvantage in some way, perhaps less powerful ships and fewer squadrons. In many missions both sides actually can loose, there might be no winner or rather two loosers. Call it a draw but it is not... bot actually loose. As a Rebel leader you are demoted and as the Imperial Commander at worst strangled for incompetence by a dude in black armour.

I promise that you can play as competitively in that setting and feel as engaged trying to outwit your opponent.

19 minutes ago, Caldias said:

But, I do know if I don't bring flotillas, or at least strive for a minimum of 5-6 activations. due to the nature of activations, I am at a disadvantage to anyone else who has that. The game should strive to appeal to as many types of gamer as possible, while making the rules in such a way that more things are viable. Just one more opinion, of course, haha.

While I agree with most stuff you said, I'd like to point out the above really depends on where you are. 4 activations is now normal for us, but it only became so a few months ago. 5 is considered a lot, and 6 a kind of 'Really? 6? Sheesh!' amount.

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

If you haven't played competitively what do you wish to respond with in a post about the competitive nature of the game?

Why is this even related?

I feel it's relevant for several reasons. Sybreed was saying that the people who he played with (whom he implied were friends) were unhappy with the game. I pointed out that I have not played competitively and have yet to find anything unbalanced. If he's playing with friends, shouldn't they be playing casually? If they're not, and playing as if practicing for Worlds, then perhaps that is their problem. I play against 1 guy. We have yet to fly the same list twice and have had no problem with the game. And we have yet to play a full wave 4 game even (I just got the Interdictor), so we haven't even started working on the combos these new waves provide. I'd think that a group of friends who bemoan the lack of fun they are having with the game, and who attribute it to certain stuff, should most likely avoid the mentality of 'Activations matter' and 'Flotillas or die' and play with what they want, rather than what won Worlds or Nationals. The fact that I have never, nor will ever (most likely) play competitively means that whatever happens in those competitions has no impact on the way I play. Why prepare for Ram lists when I know both I and my opponent will 1) never afford 6 CR-90s, 2) not like the idea? Thus, I suggest they play casually, as I have, and ignore the larger community's fads until such a time as they wish to rejoin said community competitivly in a tournament. If they like big ships, but think 'Activations, activations, activations', they'll likely not play big ships. But when playing casually, if both players in a standard battle play only what they like, I would be unsurprised to see a 3 activation HMC80/2MC30 fleet with Shara, Tycho, and a ton of Z-95s for example (something I once flew).

So again - having not played in a tournament, and having still found infinite enjoyment with the game, I would advise the group to at least give my approach a whirl, and see if they like it. No house rules required, just: Fly Casual.

13 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

While I agree with most stuff you said, I'd like to point out the above really depends on where you are. 4 activations is now normal for us, but it only became so a few months ago. 5 is considered a lot, and 6 a kind of 'Really? 6? Sheesh!' amount.

I feel it's relevant for several reasons. Sybreed was saying that the people who he played with (whom he implied were friends) were unhappy with the game. I pointed out that I have not played competitively and have yet to find anything unbalanced. If he's playing with friends, shouldn't they be playing casually? If they're not, and playing as if practicing for Worlds, then perhaps that is their problem. I play against 1 guy. We have yet to fly the same list twice and have had no problem with the game. And we have yet to play a full wave 4 game even (I just got the Interdictor), so we haven't even started working on the combos these new waves provide. I'd think that a group of friends who bemoan the lack of fun they are having with the game, and who attribute it to certain stuff, should most likely avoid the mentality of 'Activations matter' and 'Flotillas or die' and play with what they want, rather than what won Worlds or Nationals. The fact that I have never, nor will ever (most likely) play competitively means that whatever happens in those competitions has no impact on the way I play. Why prepare for Ram lists when I know both I and my opponent will 1) never afford 6 CR-90s, 2) not like the idea? Thus, I suggest they play casually, as I have, and ignore the larger community's fads until such a time as they wish to rejoin said community competitivly in a tournament. If they like big ships, but think 'Activations, activations, activations', they'll likely not play big ships. But when playing casually, if both players in a standard battle play only what they like, I would be unsurprised to see a 3 activation HMC80/2MC30 fleet with Shara, Tycho, and a ton of Z-95s for example (something I once flew).

So again - having not played in a tournament, and having still found infinite enjoyment with the game, I would advise the group to at least give my approach a whirl, and see if they like it. No house rules required, just: Fly Casual.

we're practicing for this week store tourney, so we're trying stuff that is in some ways competitive. I myself mostly fly 4 activations lists, and I managed to beat my friend who brought a 6 and a 7 activations list with an interdictor/dual glad build and the other with the ISD-1/suppressor combo.

I think euro's results is what triggered them (and myself included) in that regard. Seeing how many fleets had 1 combat ship and 4-5 flotillas turn them off a lot, because they feel the competitive scene is very important and is taking a very bad (read: boring) direction.

i don't know. i like the idea of smaller ships andd squadrons being important-plus, large ships are NOT obsolete in armada.

what i do not like, however, is the idea of the "one main activation", i.e. use a single powerful ship(admonition, demolisher, large base ship, etc) and then take a whole bunch of flotillas merely for activation padding. it feels too game-y.

Just now, Kikaze said:

i don't know. i like the idea of smaller ships andd squadrons being important-plus, large ships are NOT obsolete in armada.

what i do not like, however, is the idea of the "one main activation", i.e. use a single powerful ship(admmonition, demolisher, large base ship, etc) and then take a whole bunch of flotillas merely for activation padding. it feels too game-y.

that's exactly what we hate with the competitive scene of armada right now. It's just very boring.

Just now, Sybreed said:

we're practicing for this week store tourney, so we're trying stuff that is in some ways competitive. I myself mostly fly 4 activations lists, and I managed to beat my friend who brought a 6 and a 7 activations list with an interdictor/dual glad build and the other with the ISD-1/suppressor combo.

I think euro's results is what triggered them (and myself included) in that regard. Seeing how many fleets had 1 combat ship and 4-5 flotillas turn them off a lot, because they feel the competitive scene is very important and is taking a very bad direction.

If you're practicing for a tourney, then yeah, I can understand taking into consideration outsiders' habits.

As for Euros, again, while I can see why some have cause for concern, if you don't like it, and don't intend to play at Euros, why would you care about ho it affects your games? If you don't like a way a game appears to be headed, don't follow. Play casually and what you like. While the larger implications overall of how the designers intend to progress the game may be relevant to you, you have both no control over nor knowledge of what they'll do. While I can understand how that makes some people pull out and sell their stuff, you could just play the games you want with what you have. . . if you have fun now, and won't have fun later, then you're not gonna play in tourneys again, so you don't need up to date lists, and thus play what you like causally with what you have now. It's what I'd do.

Anyways, I'd strongly suggest that after the tourney is played your group should play some casual games with the mindset of 'We're the last of the Armada-ers', and play it casually with the intent to have fun, win or lose. I feel very confident that you'll enjoy the game then.

Come up with some fun house rules... say no more than one upgrade per command point on the ship or some over-watch rule to fix the activation issue... it can be done without changing the core tenets of the game. You don't have to ask for permission from FFG.

The only real game mechanic I don't like is when the first player can activate a ship last and move first, that is a really annoying side effect of the current rules. It badly need an over-watch mechanic, I'm testing one out that works OK.

It you play in a tournament then of course it does not matter, but such is life.

its PERFECTLLY ok if a list has, say, Yavaris, Gallant Haven, a flotilla with BCC, a flotilla with Comms Net, and a flotilla with Slicer Tools and squadrons.

it is thematic with rebel aces and small ships; very "star wars". its power level is debatable/some including me say very strong, but can be fixed.

what i am not OK with is lists that run, like, "ISD/Liberty/Home 1/take your 1x combat ship pick; then, activation padding flotilla 1, activation padding flotilla 2, activation padding flotilla 3, ALL NAKED, plus flagship flotilla 4; use relay to constantly run away as only one of my ships fights".

this is dissociative. i dont even care if it is less powerful than a rieekan aces list. it is just so unfun. it has gazillion side effects; i dont even think squadrons are so strong, a powerfuls quadron screen can still work, its just that you are forced to run 2-3 flotillas for activation padding, so you could use some 4-6 extra squadrons that combine with the flotillas. it warps everything in the meta.

Pretty much the same story in Raleigh. A much smaller crowd of players than what their used to be. We're working our best to keep the game feeling fun for newer players, but it's not definitely not easy with the current state of the game.

19 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

While I agree with most stuff you said, I'd like to point out the above really depends on where you are. 4 activations is now normal for us, but it only became so a few months ago. 5 is considered a lot, and 6 a kind of 'Really? 6? Sheesh!' amount.

I feel it's relevant for several reasons. Sybreed was saying that the people who he played with (whom he implied were friends) were unhappy with the game. I pointed out that I have not played competitively and have yet to find anything unbalanced. If he's playing with friends, shouldn't they be playing casually? If they're not, and playing as if practicing for Worlds, then perhaps that is their problem. I play against 1 guy. We have yet to fly the same list twice and have had no problem with the game. And we have yet to play a full wave 4 game even (I just got the Interdictor), so we haven't even started working on the combos these new waves provide. I'd think that a group of friends who bemoan the lack of fun they are having with the game, and who attribute it to certain stuff, should most likely avoid the mentality of 'Activations matter' and 'Flotillas or die' and play with what they want, rather than what won Worlds or Nationals. The fact that I have never, nor will ever (most likely) play competitively means that whatever happens in those competitions has no impact on the way I play. Why prepare for Ram lists when I know both I and my opponent will 1) never afford 6 CR-90s, 2) not like the idea? Thus, I suggest they play casually, as I have, and ignore the larger community's fads until such a time as they wish to rejoin said community competitivly in a tournament. If they like big ships, but think 'Activations, activations, activations', they'll likely not play big ships. But when playing casually, if both players in a standard battle play only what they like, I would be unsurprised to see a 3 activation HMC80/2MC30 fleet with Shara, Tycho, and a ton of Z-95s for example (something I once flew).

So again - having not played in a tournament, and having still found infinite enjoyment with the game, I would advise the group to at least give my approach a whirl, and see if they like it. No house rules required, just: Fly Casual.

I can definitely see how thay could have been dismissive, wasn't the intent. But what I'm saying is this. It's a logic question. I have played competitively and found there to be imbalances. That's what I, sybreed and sanguis talk about.

Doing whatever is great and all. But there's a lot of reasons why that isn't an answer as easily as you suggest. The other posters have elaborated on why you can't simply say forget about how much you know this and this are overpowered. Let's play 3 ship jank.

Either way. Whatever. I gave ffg the benefit of doubt innot doing anything after both worlds and euros. If nothing changes by wave 6 I'm done playing this game in any semblance of its normal pattern. House rules casual... extreme contempt for any competitive nature... rebuilding the game from scrap cuz even the CC is competotbely and snowbally and imbalanced

I can think of two top eight World's finishers in just my circle of friends that have stated they are moving away from the game unless major changes occur. I'm not saying FFG should fold to a little complaining, but this is far past the point of a few people being unhappy.

I'm personally excited for the Hammerhead, not because it will work well in the meta, but because I personally just love smaller ships. But if a FAQ doesn't errata some things soon, I can't imagine being all that pumped about wave 7.