Situation:

I'm shooting at a trooper.

During the attack, I play positioning advantage or some other "during attack" card.

Agent Blaise uses this opportunity to assign the hidden condition to the trooper I'm shooting at.

Does the trooper get the benefit during this attack?

I'm like 90% sure the answer is no. I'm pretty sure this came up while I was judging wolrds back in November and I swewar I remember Todd saying hidden wouldn't kick in until AFTER the attack was resolved.

I just can't quire remember the logic behind that. Something with conditions falling under mission rule effects or something? or maybe that was for a different instance... hmm.

A Condition Keyword ( Hide , Focus , Stun , Weaken , Bleed ) gives the corresponding condition ( Hidden , Focused , Stunned , Weakened , Bleeding ) after the attack resolves if the target suffered damage.

If an ability gives a condition directly, it does not need that the target suffered damage and it happens immediately.

Hidden applies the -2 accuracy (when defending, or a surge when attacking) during step 4 of the attack (core/mission rules). If Hidden is gained after that, it does not affect that attack. If it is gained before step 4, it applies to the attack.

Ability Resolution Order during attacks

If played in response to Positioning Advantage, the gained hidden does not affect the attack. (Because conditions were already resolved during step 4 before any attacker abilities - i.e. Positioning Advantage.)

Hidden counts as a mission effect rather than a friendly effect? Why's that?

The same chart also lists "Evades cancelling surges" as a mission effect - wouldn't that mean that added surges (e.g. Hera's Call the Shots) are immune to evades, and that added evades (e.g. Onar's Get Down) are useless, because cancelling happens before applying these extra effects? Is that chart just wrong or what am I missing?

Conditions are core/mission rules because otherwise Weakened would not work well with Cunning. (Cunning would otherwise add a block before Weakened would be able to add a negative evade to cancel an evade rolled.)

I'll have to update the evades thing.

As soon as there is both a negative and positive of the same symbol, they annihilate each other (positive and negative evades, surges, dodges, etc.). This is needed for Weakened to work with Cunning as intended. Each remaining evade cancels a remaining surge at the end of step 4.

On 9.6.2017 at 5:23 PM, a1bert said:

If played in response to Positioning Advantage, the gained hidden does not affect the attack. (Because conditions were already resolved during step 4 before any attacker abilities - i.e. Positioning Advantage.)

I disagree. What RogueLtd is asking is the following:

Blaise can apply hidden (to a spy or trooper) the first time a command card is played.
His opponend attacks one of his spies or trooper and plays Positioning Advantage in step 4.
He triggers Blaise's ability to apply hidden to the spy or trooper that is targeted by the attack.
The target applies the -2 accuracy in step 6, which is after step 4.

So IMHO you can get the accuracy modifier of hidden via this effect.

Accuracy is only checked during step 6. Accuracy is modified during steps 4 (non-surge) and 5 (surge abilities).

4. Apply Modifiers: If players have any effects that gain or remove icons or Accuracy, they are applied at this time.

Currently, if the hidden condition is gained after the mission rules for step 4 (including conditions) have been resolved, during the attacker or defender abilities, it does not affect the same attack. This might change though.

On 6/13/2017 at 1:21 AM, a1bert said:

Accuracy is only checked during step 6. Accuracy is modified during steps 4 (non-surge) and 5 (surge abilities).

4. Apply Modifiers: If players have any effects that gain or remove icons or Accuracy, they are applied at this time.

Currently, if the hidden condition is gained after the mission rules for step 4 (including conditions) have been resolved, during the attacker or defender abilities, it does not affect the same attack. This might change though.

The core rules have some inconsistencies with focused wordings which we are discussing with Clipper and Todd. It may affect how hidden condition being gained during step 4 will be handled.

@a1bert has there been any update to this? Is this official that Hidden gained in step 4 doesn't change accuracy?

Since the modifier are applied following attack-defense order, shouldn't hidden be applied? first positioning advantage, hidden and the defense round to use modifiers. Am I wrong?

Also, where is the timing CONFLICT in any of this?

Player A plays a Command Card. Player B has Blaise and Adapt is triggered. Trooper/Spy gains Hidden Condition. Hidden Condition applies -2 to Accuracy during Step 4.

The rules that state mission rules are resolved first is under CONFLICTS which states:

Quote

Numerous abilities, mission rules, and other game effects can be triggered at the same time.

During a skirmish, mission rules are resolved first, followed by effects from the player with initiative, then effects from his opponent.
• If multiple mission rules would resolve at the same time, the player with initiative decides the order of resolution.

Blaise player is triggering and applying a condition during the Apply Modifiers step. There does not appear to be any further breakdown of this step in the rules unless there is a timing conflict.

What is the purpose of the Command Card Force Illusion if not to apply -2 Accuracy to the attack that it was played in?

No ruling as far as I know. I talked about the three ways to handle some of the oddities of focused elsewhere quite recently. (But I'm in a fever, so have no energy to search.)

I think I found the Focused discussion...

However, regarding gaining Hidden during an attack (Blaise's Adapt, Force Illusion, etc), I do no see anything in the RAW that says:
1) Window for applying Condition (Mission Rules) Modifiers
2) Window for applying Attacker Modifiers
3) Window for applying Defender Modifiers

...in such a manner that would prohibit a Defender from applying a Condition (Hidden) that then modifies the attack Accuracy (in the same Step 4). Because where the rules break down timing order into mission/attacker/defender, is when there is a timing conflict. There doesn't appear to be any timing conflict where Accuracy is concerned. Hidden is applying -2 Accuracy which doesn't cancel anything; as opposed to the Cunning/Weakened interaction which definitely conflicts.

I wish you a speedy recovery!

Actually it is explicitly stated in RRG

"Conflicts Numerous abilities, mission rules, and other game effects can be triggered at the same time. • While attacking, mission rules are resolved first, followed by effects from the attacker (including figures friendly to him), then effects from the defender (including figures friendly to him)"

As a result, because conditions ARE mission rules, they are all aplied and resolved before attackers abilities.

The attack goes as follow.

STEP 4

1. Mission rules - no mission modifications or conditions (beacuse defender is not hidden atm)

2. positionoing advantage +1 dmg / HIDE

3. defenders effects

STEP 5

Surges

STEP 6

Checking acc - There are no modifiers, because during step 4.1 defender wasn't hidden. so the condition wasn't resolved.

In this scenario there is a situation, where defender technicaly was hidden during an attack, but he had hidden too late for this condition to be aplied.

As for abilities resolution order it was clearly stated in FAQ, however it was the other way around (negative condition instead of positive, but it doesn't matter)

"Q: A figure with “Cunning” has the Weakened condition. While defending, it rolls a (evade symbol. Does it get to apply its +block from “Cunning” before the -evade from the Weakened condition is applied? A: No. Conditions are treated as mission rules for the purposes of timing conflicts, so the -1 evade triggers before the defender has a chance to use “Cunning.”

Note, that adding or removing accuracy is treated the same was as adding/removing damage/surge/block/evade symbols.

@Szycha What's the timing conflict of modifying Accuracy?

The conflict is, that at the time when conditions should be aplied (before attackers abilities) the defender wasn't hidden so the condition obviously didn't kick in (because it wasn't there). It also couldn't be aplied later, because it would mean, that the mission rule was resolved after attackers ability.

I prepared 2 super professional examples

Example 1 IA

1. unfocused Davith attacks and kills Greedo

2. Greedo resolves parting shot to kill obi-wan

3. Obi-wan resolves into the force to focus ahsoka.

Would you add the green die to the attack for bonus surges and fell swoop? No you wouldnt' because you already threw the dice and aplied surges. It's the same with acc. You won't apply -2 acc, because conditions resolving timing window already passed.

Example 2 NOT IA

If u put BBQ sauce on your ribs after you take then out of the oven wwill you get BBQ Ribs? NO! You will get mediocore Ribbs swiming in BBQ

edit

Actually the easiest and straightforward example concerns end of the round timing. If one player goes over 40 VP from objecitves, then the "looser" won't get a chance to resolve his end of the round opporutnities (like vader/han/ferocity attacks, black market etc.), because mission rules kicked in earlier.

There is no timing window for when conditions/mission rules may be applied in Step 4, unless there is a simultaneous effect that provides a timing conflict.

Quote

TIMING
Numerous game effects have the possibility of triggering at the same time . If this occurs, use the following to determine the order in which these effects are resolved:

During an attack, in both a campaign and a skirmish, resolve mission rules first, followed by effects triggered by the attacker, then effects triggered by the defender.

My emphasis... biggest one is IF .

Next is this, which in this case, is the preceding possibility: triggering at the same time.

If there was a Condition or an Attacker effect that prevented a Defender from gaining Conditions or playing command cards, then yes, there would be a conflict and the Defender could not play Force Illusion or Adapt to effect.

But a Defender playing Force Illusion during step 4 modifies Accuracy because they have gained the Hidden Condition in Step 4... which is the Apply Modifier step.

I am not following your logic in your example... Davith attacked, Obi focused Ahsoka... If you meant those two interchangeably, then no, but it has nothing to do with this example... Davith/Ahsoka killed Greedo in Step 7. In the present discussion, Accuracy is being modified in Step 4 of the current attack which is also still in Step 4.

Actually, if you make ribs with dry rub (Memphis style) and add BBQ sauce after, they are quite delicious! I recommend Black Hog BBQ in/around Frederick, MD. There are of course other locations - probably in/around Memphis too, but I frequented Black Hog on business trips.

To use a more contextual example, take Force Illusion...

• Luke sits in front of an AT-M6.
• It fires.
• Luke projects his image on a distant planet.
• His illusion is safe.
• Luke is dead.

That's what happens when you try to make BBQ jokes with Americans... You just... GET PWNT As for you IF concern; Timing conflict occurs everytime two (or more) effects take place at the same timing window - in this matter step 4 of an attack. For example you resolve pos advantage FIRST (as a mission condition) and THEN I toss a card for zillo (as a defenders effect)). It's the same with condition - FIRST I resolve hidden (as mission rule) and THEN you resolve pos advantage (as attacker effect). However, with adapt I didn't resolve hidden before your pos advantage (beacause it wasn't there) and it doesn't have a chance to trigger later.

AS for force Illusion, note, that as along as technically it can be played anytime during attack, if you want it to get -2 acc fot the attack, you have to play it BEFORE step 4, because otherwise it won't have a chance to kick in for the reasons stated above.

(Re: BBQ joke) Haha!

Now, back to the meat of the discussion

Timing and Conflicts give an order of priority when effects trigger simultaneously. Which is different than generating a window of opportunity for when they may be played or resolved.

Positioning Advantage and Hidden (by way of Adapt) have no conflict in their timing. Positioning Adj does trigger Adapt. And if there was a Condition or mission rule that denied Adapt to be triggered or Hidden to be gained, then yes, it would stop Adapt or the figure from gaining Hidden.

But if you play Pos Adv, and then I Adapt and become Hidden (prior to leaving Step 4), then I have modified Accuracy by -2 within Step 4.

+1 dmg and Hidden (i.e. -2 Accuracy) can happily coexist. There is no timing conflict with these. One will not affect the other in Step 4. I do not need to be Hidden to be able to Adapt. I become Hidden by way of Adapt. I did not miss a window of opportunity to apply -2 Accuracy from being Hidden within Step 4 because such a window does not exist in the Rules for ALL of Step 4. Only where there are timing conflicts.

Cunning and Weakened directly conflict with one another. That is why it is important to understand that when timing conflicts arise, conditions are treated as mission rules and resolve prior to defender effects - for that timing conflict. So the -1 evade triggers before the defender can use Cunning to convert the evade to a block.

@MCOLL81 I get what you're saying, but there is precedent for saying that the "timing and conflicts" order of priority does generate a window. Take Szycha's example of positioning advantage and Zillo (or anything else that adds +1 block). If my figure is attacking your figure, I decide not to play any step 4 cards and then you use Zillo to add +1 block, I can't then go back and say "oh, well in that case I'll use positioning advantage after all". It's too late at that point - I had a window in which to play cards, I chose not to, then it was your turn.

Similarly, what Szycha is saying (and what makes sense to me) is that even though you would become hidden during step 4, the time for applying the -2 accuracy for hidden has already passed because we've already moved on to the attacker's card phase of step 4.

By this logic, though, I would assume that if the attacker played something like Officer's Training (which grants a reroll) then in that case Blaise could give out a hidden condition that would affect the attack. This is because the condition would be applied during the re-roll step and before the start of step 4.

2 hours ago, ManateeX said:

@MCOLL81 I get what you're saying, but there is precedent for saying that the "timing and conflicts" order of priority does generate a window. Take Szycha's example of positioning advantage and Zillo (or anything else that adds +1 block). If my figure is attacking your figure, I decide not to play any step 4 cards and then you use Zillo to add +1 block, I can't then go back and say "oh, well in that case I'll use positioning advantage after all". It's too late at that point - I had a window in which to play cards, I chose not to, then it was your turn.

Similarly, what Szycha is saying (and what makes sense to me) is that even though you would become hidden during step 4, the time for applying the -2 accuracy for hidden has already passed because we've already moved on to the attacker's card phase of step 4.

By this logic, though, I would assume that if the attacker played something like Officer's Training (which grants a reroll) then in that case Blaise could give out a hidden condition that would affect the attack. This is because the condition would be applied during the re-roll step and before the start of step 4.

+1 damage and +1 block wouldn't cause a timing conflict - it's not the same as -1 dodge and convert a dodge, BUT , I do get what you are saying with regard to the "too late to play". And along those I am seeing that they are treating ALL of Step 4 as one simultaneous game effect that triggers at the same time and therefore provides the windows...

It took myself asking these three questions for during an attack:
1) who re-rolls first: attacker or defender?
2) who plays mod cards first: attacker or defender?
3) if both of those are attacker, can the attacker re-roll after the defender re-rolls or play a card (other than say Negation, or similar) after the defender plays a card?

Once the answer to those (attacker, attacker, no) was confirmed, it's clear that Adapt triggered off of a Step 4 attacker card will add Hidden to the defender, but it will NOT resolve its apply -2 Accuracy while defending.

Well, that was fun... pretty sure I scoured nearly every inch of the RRG; which should prove useful going into this weekend's Regional

Ok, now I get it. You just missed the main rule of resolving abilities, which is resoultion order (however I totally understand it, because the rules doesn't clarify this matter enough by using the label "conflicts" instead of "resolution order".

as a result

1) attacker rerolls first (AND If attacker rerolls defenders die, the defender cannot reroll it again - because of single reroll rule)

2) attacker

3) NO, because rerolls are made during step 4 and rerolls during step 3. Actually attacker cannot reroll even after defender rerolls, because he should do it first.

few more examples - If you started a round with initiative and your opponent plays take initiative, then you cannot "counter" it with your own take initiative, bevause your timing window alresady passed.

Because of that, it is VERY important to do everything ESPECIALLY ATTACKS step by step.

so

STEP 1

1. I declare attack with my bt-1 towards your weequay pirate using element of surprise (declare attack step) do you play anything?

2. No/Yes I play run for cover to remove your red die (you cannot play command cards or resolve effetcs that happen during delcare target step

STEP 2

Both players roll dice. (attacker 6 dmg defender 1 evade)

STEP 3

1. I am good, no rerolls because I kill you atm, do you reroll?

2. Yes, I play guardian stance with my Gamorean to reroll black (3 block)

Attacker CANNOT REROLL with mitigate, because it's too late

STEP 4

apply modifieres

1. I play assasinate to add +3 dmg for 6 total to kill you (positioning advantage still in my hand)

2. Ok, so I resolve Onar's get down to add +1 block, still 5 damage pall

Attacker CANNOT play pos advantage, because it's too late

STEP 5

no surges

STEP 6

acc is fine

STEP 7

ok 5 dmg

If you are going to play in Regio, then you HAVE to memorise this rules and timing windows for playing your cards, to avoid missed oportunities.

While attacking you should also consider enemy defence (mostly ZILLO) and sometimes overkil, to ensure a takedown.

Effects other then attacks are resolved according with initiative order, so If both players have call the vanguard, then the players with init plays his First. (after attack resolves attack still use attack timing order - recent clarification from DEV)

And one last thing. The same aplies for the end of the round, which means, that VPs from objectives are scored first. [however it's the only instance in the game when a few things actually happen simutanously (unless stated otherwise, like opening doors on Jawa's map), because they are the part of same effect]. As a result If one player goes over 40 after scoring objectives, the game ends before anyone can play their end of the round effects (like vaders or hans attack or black market + it means that end of the round player effects doesnt affect objectives scoring, because they are performed later). The same occurs, when player with initiative goes over 40 with his end of the round effect. You have to keep it in mind, because it's sometimes a gamebraker

Good Luck

edit. One obvious example from FAQ, but afair there are more (just cannot recall were it in official faq or in replies to rules queries sent by developers).

Q: In a skirmish, if my opponent plays “Take Initiative,” can I play my own copy of “Take Initiative” to counteract it? A: No. Your timing window to play cards “at the start of the round” would have passed (see “Conflicts in a Skirmish” in the Rules Reference Guide).

It clearly states, that "conflicts" rules are actually resolution order rules,