I'm sick of facing Dengar. It's not that he's OP (although he is). It's not that he's boring to play against (although he is). It's not even the face that if I'm not running a tier 1 list it's a guaranteed loss. It's the fact that anything I can play to have any chance at all of beating him is a hard counter, and that's just as not fun as anything else.

For instance, If I bring RAC with VI, Kylo and Palp in this Dengar heavy meta, am I any better than the players that bring Dengar, because I'm looking for easy wins?

Everyone who plays a Jumpmaster is a bad person. That's axiomatic. Unless you also run Talonbane Cobra.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

Everyone who plays a Jumpmaster is a bad person. That's axiomatic. Unless you also run Talonbane Cobra.

Though your statement is true, this will not be the case when the Fix is released later this year as Cobra will be an "almost Fenn" with the cheap mods he can grab.

Agreed. Then you have to run... a quadjumper? Dace? hmm...

I just ran RAC with that setup yesterday along with Echo, and very nearly had my rear handed to me by three Z-95s, a Quadjumper and Ketsu. Just because your list is a hard counter to one thing doesn't mean it's a hard counter for everything. You're bringing Rock to kill Scissors, but that just means you'll have a harder time dealing with Paper.

anyone who runs anything effective is bad and wrong. Only fly ships that are awful. it's more fun!

I can agree that Dengar can be a pain in the rear, but I cannot agree with the statement that he's boring to play against. He's one of the most engaging PWTs in the game. The only problem is that he's a bit overused because he won worlds and some people think that makes DengarTel the best list in the game. (+ he was overused previously because Dengaroo)

P.S. Can you guys stop calling every F'ing pilot that sees competitive success OP? Dengar is in a good spot- he used to be broken when Dengaroo was a thing, but now he's simply a strong pilot. Just because something wins a large tournament doesn't mean it's broken (nerf Leebo lol)

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Though your statement is true, this will not be the case when the Fix is released later this year as Cobra will be an "almost Fenn" with the cheap mods he can grab.

It makes talon bane better, but he still dies WAY easier than fenn.

11 minutes ago, Elavion said:

I can agree that Dengar can be a pain in the rear, but I cannot agree with the statement that he's boring to play against. He's one of the most engaging PWTs in the game. The only problem is that he's a bit overused because he won worlds and some people think that makes DengarTel the best list in the game. (+ he was overused previously because Dengaroo)

P.S. Can you guys stop calling every F'ing pilot that sees competitive success OP? Dengar is in a good spot- he used to be broken when Dengaroo was a thing, but now he's simply a strong pilot. Just because something wins a large tournament doesn't mean it's broken (nerf Leebo lol)

Dengar is not OP, you're correct.

However, the ship he pilots, that chassis FFG gifted him? That certainly is OP, no doubt about that, it's simply ridiculous.

Dengar averages 55-65 points

Dash averages 50-55 points

Dengar, in my opinion, is probably properly costed for the average build.

The rest of the Jumps are broken AF.

1 minute ago, Wiredin said:

Dengar averages 55-65 points

Dash averages 50-55 points

Dengar, in my opinion, is probably properly costed for the average build.

The rest of the Jumps are broken AF.

I don't think tel is really that broken either. Scouts and manaroo are the main issues. I actually think if they'd just made them all 3-attack and costed them that way and made the title do something else there never would have been a problem.

23 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Dengar is not OP, you're correct.

However, the ship he pilots, that chassis FFG gifted him? That certainly is OP, no doubt about that, it's simply ridiculous.

I'm not entirely convinced. I'm under the impression that JM5k's renown of being OP is a matter of perception rather than objective power.

a) It's very popular, since the list's been around for over a year with only small changes to actual card loadout, therefore a lot of people already have a solid competitive build, therefore a lot of people play it, therefore as a solid comp list they get a lot of exposure and a good amount of success. The fact that it was stupidly broken during deadeye era also contributed to the amount of people who have those lists available.

b) People have a tendency to overreact to returning threats, and I noticed it in several games. If ship A is exactly as strong as ship B, but ship A used to be broken, people will consider ship A better than ship B.

c) Interestingly, did you know people's perception of something can noticeably impact that thing's performance? I can actually give you an example of that: A few years back in League of Legends, the character Vladimir was considered overpowered, therefore the developer reduced his damage and a few other stats in their bi-weekly balance patch; What followed was a noticeable drop in Vladimir's win rate. The catch? A few weeks later, the devs realised they actually forgot to implement the changes. They announced they did, and that turned out to be enough to fix the problem.

2 minutes ago, Elavion said:

c) Interestingly, did you know people's perception of something can noticeably impact that thing's performance? I can actually give you an example of that: A few years back in League of Legends, the character Vladimir was considered overpowered, therefore the developer reduced his damage and a few other stats in their bi-weekly balance patch; What followed was a noticeable drop in Vladimir's win rate. The catch? A few weeks later, the devs realised they actually forgot to implement the changes. They announced they did, and that turned out to be enough to fix the problem.

How much of that was people simply not playing him as a result? Or at least the better players that are more likely to have a higher win rate? There's plenty of evidence of the best players in x-wing not simply taking a popular list and winning with it, but coming up with their own lists that are designed to do well against the meta (denver/tel winning worlds this year, pauls 2015 worlds list, even his modifications to fat han in 2014).

People haven't flocked to the jump master just because it's popular. They've flown it because it has consistently beat most other things. Deadeye scouts murdered most of the meta before they released, dengaroo murdered pretty much everything, paratanni pre-nerf beat most things as well (and still does well after), scouts are highly efficient blockers as long as the opponent isn't lower pilot skill, etc.

22 minutes ago, Elavion said:

I'm not entirely convinced. I'm under the impression that JM5k's renown of being OP is a matter of perception rather than objective power.

a) It's very popular, since the list's been around for over a year with only small changes to actual card loadout, therefore a lot of people already have a solid competitive build, therefore a lot of people play it, therefore as a solid comp list they get a lot of exposure and a good amount of success. The fact that it was stupidly broken during deadeye era also contributed to the amount of people who have those lists available.

b) People have a tendency to overreact to returning threats, and I noticed it in several games. If ship A is exactly as strong as ship B, but ship A used to be broken, people will consider ship A better than ship B.

c) Interestingly, did you know people's perception of something can noticeably impact that thing's performance? I can actually give you an example of that: A few years back in League of Legends, the character Vladimir was considered overpowered, therefore the developer reduced his damage and a few other stats in their bi-weekly balance patch; What followed was a noticeable drop in Vladimir's win rate. The catch? A few weeks later, the devs realised they actually forgot to implement the changes. They announced they did, and that turned out to be enough to fix the problem.

Excuse me there for a second Elavion. "Waiter," I then said, "can I have what he's having?"

I don't get that upset when I see JM5K's across the table, what does get my blood boiling are Shadowcasters....

That being said, both ships have insane action efficiency potential. but the Shadowcaster with the stress and tractor beam shenanigans is a royal pain.

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Dengar is not OP, you're correct.

However, the ship he pilots, that chassis FFG gifted him? That certainly is OP, no doubt about that, it's simply ridiculous.

Without upgrades, scouts will destroy nearly every other ship without upgrades. That says something about the frame. Plus their cheapness really irks me - they're sooo much better than the Wild Space Fringer for 5 points less !

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Dengar is not OP, you're correct.

However, the ship he pilots, that chassis FFG gifted him? That certainly is OP, no doubt about that, it's simply ridiculous.

Dengar with Expertise, Unhinged and Punishing One is 50 points. That's pretty much the same as the classic Corran build. Both can throw 8 dice in a turn, with the difference being that Dengar can do it every turn, and Corran can only to it once every two. Also, Dengar has a turret primary and free mods with expertise. And He's PS9.

Sans the fact that Corran has regen (which Dengar will win against anyway), why should I ever take Corran when Dengar - at the same price - is so much better?

3 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

People haven't flocked to the jump master just because it's popular. They've flown it because it has consistently beat most other things. Deadeye scouts murdered most of the meta before they released, dengaroo murdered pretty much everything, paratanni pre-nerf beat most things as well (and still does well after), scouts are highly efficient blockers as long as the opponent isn't lower pilot skill, etc.

This. Commonwealth Defenders had their counters, but every one of the JM5K meta-lists had no counters. Torp-boats were insanity that wrecked the meta, Dengaroo with just as bad (but at least arc-dodgers stood a chance), Paratanni got better, because there were counters. Now we're onto Dengar + Escort, and it's gone down in power once again. Even still, if I don't bring a tier 1 list, I will lose.

11 minutes ago, Astech said:

Plus their cheapness really irks me - they're sooo much better than the Wild Space Fringer for 5 points less !

And the wild space fringer is wildly overcosted, so it doesn't help much for comparing how much the CS should be (which is indeed too cheap, but even so)

Free mods are a wash, corran usually has FCS. And corran has an extra agility.

13 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

And the wild space fringer is wildly overcosted, so it doesn't help much for comparing how much the CS should be (which is indeed too cheap, but even so)

Free mods are a wash, corran usually has FCS . And corran has an extra agility.

True but it's the most comparable ship in terms of its potential role - blocker/support.

Good point about the mods. I meant to say that Dengar has free mods on any ship , whereas Corran has to tail the same one to get his efficiency.

That extra agility is less meaningful than 4 hull and a better dial though...

42 minutes ago, Astech said:

Good point about the mods. I meant to say that Dengar has free mods on any ship , whereas Corran has to tail the same one to get his efficiency.

Conversely, FCS still works when stressed

Yeah, when it comes to those that play X-wing with Jumpmasters. I believe it is safe to call them the Scum of the Galaxy!

I don't dump on the Jumpmasters because they are popular. I want them nerfed because they are too good for what they cost.

I hate Dash. I mean hate. I'm using the word hate here. I hate Dash. I'm not asking for a Dash nerf because he is probably OK at his cost. I still maintain his ability is horse$#@& but whatever.

The Jumpmasters are, have been, and remain broken. Whether they win a tournament or not is immaterial.

3 hours ago, Astech said:

Without upgrades, scouts will destroy nearly every other ship without upgrades. That says something about the frame

I'd also disagree with this statement. The naked stats of the scout aren't what makes it so good. It's the combinations of upgrades you can give it. 4 naked scouts will melt to an 8 tie swarm. Or 4BZ. Or hell, I'd take 5 cartel marauders pre-fix against 4 naked scouts, and the kihraxz is a notoriously under par ship.

No one runs naked scouts. They always have upgrades on em.

Always good counters are to have more ships or tools like Countermeasure or Black One title to stop alpha strikes

3 hours ago, IG88E said:

Always good counters are to have more ships or tools like Countermeasure or Black One title to stop alpha strikes

Specialized swarms make Jumpmasters life miserable be it TIE, A-wing or Scyk variant. A good example would be a TIE swarm with EH-Youngster, a few Crack/Snap Blacks and named pilots to flavor.

6 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I'd also disagree with this statement. The naked stats of the scout aren't what makes it so good. It's the combinations of upgrades you can give it. 4 naked scouts will melt to an 8 tie swarm. Or 4BZ. Or hell, I'd take 5 cartel marauder s pre-fix against 4 naked scouts, and the kihraxz is a notoriously under par ship.

No one runs naked scouts. They always have upgrades on em.

Goo point, but they put the smackdown on Y-wings, Bombers, Starvipers (post-fix, even) etc without mods. This can even hold for 4B Z - simply joust them and force the bump-fest, then K-turn behind them while they can't. 5 marauders suffers a similar problem - once the initial joust is over, the remaining Contracted Scouts can simply run away and whittle them down over time.

As you say though, JM5Ks are run with upgrades, and the sheer variety of them is staggering. All they're really missing is a systems slot...

When all is said and done, you can have a lot of fun playing against JM5Ks. I just completed a brillient Vassal game against a Fenn + Torpboats list where the dice were pretty much even (I checked Lady Luck), yet I beat him with Unkar, PTL Asajj and PTL Fenn through good flying.