Did anyone contact FFG and get a response from the designers on which one of these is correct?

The idea is Snap doing a Tallon Roll or K-Turn with a Pattern Analyzer and getting or not getting his free boost action.

Here are two arguments that were made in our local area:

A) Pattern Analyzer moves Check Pilot Stress sub-step to after Perform Action step, but all steps of Executing a maneuver need to be completed before the ability triggers

Therefore SNAP cannot boost since after moving the ship to the end of the template he is not yet considered to have "Executed a maneuver" and after Check Pilot Stress he is stressed and cannot perform free actions.

B) Patter Analyzer moves Check Pilot Stress substep to after Perform Action step, but it is no longer required as part of Executing a maneuver.

Therefore SNAP can do his free boost before he receives the delayed stress.

I am surprised this has not been in the FAQ yet.


No arguments for A or B please. There has been enough of them already.

I am just curious if someone from FFG OP or X-Wing design team addressed this or what the judges have been ruling on formal tournaments.

Thanks in advance

No, it's not been FAQed as far as I'm aware.

Best way to make it happen would be to submit the question to the FFG rules questions line.

I didn't even realise there was a debate on this.

29 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

I didn't even realise there was a debate on this.

What is common consensus?

6 minutes ago, Goseki1 said:

What is common consensus?

I've seen option B everywhere, since Clean Up substep doesn't move.

37 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

I didn't even realise there was a debate on this.

Me neither

15 minutes ago, Willy Jarque said:

I've seen option B everywhere, since Clean Up substep doesn't move.

that seems the most likely answer to me, but I've not given it much thought. Because like the rest of you I don't remember this actually being debated here.

32 minutes ago, Goseki1 said:

What is common consensus?

B. I pointed out at the time that it is literally impossible for it to work any other way.

B !
The A doesn't have any sense ...

17 minutes ago, futil said:

B !
The A doesn't have any sense ...

I just re-read what I wrote in A and man... my mind must have been elsewhere. Corrected with the most common argument locally.

TO here, I do not understand what the debate is... Pattern Analyzer doesn't come into play with Snap unless his move caused him to either overlap a debris field, or was a red maneuver. Pattern Analyzer just modifies the order of operations after the Move Ship step. Technically, both A and B you have listed are correct in their wording, but your interpretation of what they do not appear to be I feel.

In a nut shell, assigning stress tokens with Pattern Analyzer becomes the last step of that ship's activation. IE, it allows a ship to perform any free or standard actions before applying stress tokens.

1 hour ago, shaunmerritt said:

TO here, I do not understand what the debate is... Pattern Analyzer doesn't come into play with Snap unless his move caused him to either overlap a debris field, or was a red maneuver. Pattern Analyzer just modifies the order of operations after the Move Ship step. Technically, both A and B you have listed are correct in their wording, but your interpretation of what they do not appear to be I feel.

In a nut shell, assigning stress tokens with Pattern Analyzer becomes the last step of that ship's activation. IE, it allows a ship to perform any free or standard actions before applying stress tokens.

Executing a maneuver is definitively not the same as move ship, and we are talking about an "after executing a maneuver" ability.

53 minutes ago, Willy Jarque said:

Executing a maneuver is definitively not the same as move ship, and we are talking about an "after executing a maneuver" ability.

True, "After executing a maneuver" occurs "after the Clean Up substep of the Execute Maneuver step", as expressed in the FAQ entry for Kanan Jarrus. Pattern Analyzer does not move this step so it should still occur before the Perform Action step in the ship's activation.

Though to answer the question, I haven't seen any email rulings about this yet.

4 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

TO here, I do not understand what the debate is... Pattern Analyzer doesn't come into play with Snap unless his move caused him to either overlap a debris field, or was a red maneuver. Pattern Analyzer just modifies the order of operations after the Move Ship step. Technically, both A and B you have listed are correct in their wording, but your interpretation of what they do not appear to be I feel.

In a nut shell, assigning stress tokens with Pattern Analyzer becomes the last step of that ship's activation. IE, it allows a ship to perform any free or standard actions before applying stress tokens.

It's about the free boost after a tallon roll. Again the two arguments are what I heard locally but I was looking for one definitive answer that can be used if a player disputes the ruling at a tournament.
I.e. do you have to complete all steps of executing a maneuver (moving, checking pilot stress and cleanup) regardless of when they happen to trigger "After executing a maneuver" effects OR do you just make the cut off after Clean up.

Snap Shot happens before the moving ship takes an action.

So the boost happens just fine...

Okay I'm going to lay out both arguments.

The normal order is:

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver
a. Move Ship
b. Check Pilot Stress
c. Clean Up

3. Perform Action.

Pattern Analyser says: When executing a Maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step.)

The question seems to be, when are you considered to "complete a maneuver".

The FAQ for kanan says it's after step 2c:

1, 2a, 2c, "complete maneuver" , 3, 2b

But the rule does say executing a maneuver involves resolving "the following substeps in order". Pattern Analyser allows you to negate the "in order" clause, but does it negate "the following substeps"? Do you have to do all 3 to be considered "completed" and the Kanan FAQ just refers to what is normally the last of the substeps?

So that would be:

1, 2a, 2c, 3, 2b, "complete maneuver"

Good lord talk about looking for a problem where there isn't one.

Snap +PA works like this:

Dial T-Roll,

execute T Roll,

delay check pilot stress step with PA

perform action step:

Did Snap complete a 2, 3, or 4 maneuver?

yes: he may perform a free boost.

he may also perform an action such as focus, TL, or any actions from upgrades.

Check pilot stress step:

Dis snap reveal a red maneuver?

yes

assign a stress token.

6 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Good lord talk about looking for a problem where there isn't one.

Snap +PA works like this:

Dial T-Roll,

execute T Roll,

delay check pilot stress step with PA

perform action step:

Did Snap complete a 2, 3, or 4 maneuver?

yes: he may perform a free boost.

he may also perform an action such as focus, TL, or any actions from upgrades.

Check pilot stress step:

Dis snap reveal a red maneuver?

yes

assign a stress token.

While i agree that this could be done, this is incorrect.

"After executing a maneuver" abilities does not happen at the perform action step. That would mean that if you skip that step for any reason, like bumping, you wouldnt be able to resolve them, and thats not true.

Deleted

PA:

"When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step)"

Snap

"After you execute a 2-, 3- or 4-speed maneuver, if you are not touching a ship, you may perform a free boost action"

Execute Maneuver:

a. Move ship

b. Check pilot stress

c. Clean up

So now looking at all three in same space it seems like there might be something to OP's point:

So if I understand the argument it's that with pattern analyzer, Execute Maneuver doesn't end until after Perform Action step, and if Snap performs a red, then then he doesn't get free boost.

I now think this actually might be correct.

Its certainly worthy of an email question to FFG.

1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

PA:

"When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step)"

Snap

"After you execute a 2-, 3- or 4-speed maneuver, if you are not touching a ship, you may perform a free boost action"

Execute Maneuver:

a. Move ship

b. Check pilot stress

c. Clean up

So now looking at all three in same space it seems like there might be something to OP's point:

So if I understand the argument it's that with pattern analyzer, Execute Maneuver doesn't end until after Perform Action step, and if Snap performs a red, then then he doesn't get free boost.

I now think this actually might be correct.

Its certainly worthy of an email question to FFG.

No, and for one simple reason. If the 'execute maneuver' step doesn't end, then you never progress to the perform action step. So either both things that happen after performing a maneuver trigger (Snap's ability and moving on the the perform action step), or neither do and the game literally stops due to bad code.

Resolution A as shown in the initial post is literally impossible.

1st, the game is not a program. It isn't binary it is analog. So the game doesn't stop due to bad code. (Unless you're playing with a dreaded ILLer).

2nd, PA moves the penultimate part of the Execute maneuver step outside of the normal play state.

3rd, if Check pilot stress substep is part of execute maneuver and it's position in the order is shifted, then logically the execute maneuver step concludes AFTER the check pilot stress step and therefore Snap's ability would trigger after then because his ability is triggered at the conclusion of the execute maneuver step.

At the very least it's not cut and dried. I agree with OP that FFG should make an explicit clarification.

1) It's just an analogy – don't sweat it.

2) Yep.

3) Exactly. So if the execute maneuver step hasn't completed (no trigger for Snap), then you don't move on to the perform action step because that comes after execute maneuver. But you can't finish executing the maneuver until you've finished the thing that comes after executing a maneuver. This is literally impossible, hence the game crashing analogy. It's cut and dried in so far as one of the two options is impossible, thus the other option, however questionably worded, is the only option we actually have.

Your point three misses the obvious in that the card Pattern Analyser changes the normal game state. The card overrules the base rules.

And you are wrong, the card states explicitly that you alter the order of the Execute Maneuver step.

Perform Action happens after clean up sub step and before check pilot stress when equipped with PA. Then after when you check pilot stress, the execute maneuver step is over. Now you can trigger Snap's ability. If you dialed a red, you can't.

It doesn't miss that, it fundamentally requires it.

48 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Perform Action happens after clean up sub step

No. From the RR:

Quote

ACTIVATION PHASE

During the Activation phase, each ship is activated one at a time, starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill and continuing in ascending order. Each ship resolves the following steps in order:

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

3. Perform Action

3 happens after 2. That is, you do not progress to 3 until 2 is completed. If 2 is completed, Snap triggers. The execute maneuver step is over when you've run out of things to do in step 2. If step 2 was not complete, you could not progress to step 3 because the rules tell you to resolve the steps in order.

Bottom line is that if you are resolving your perform action step, you must have finished your execute maneuver step. There is no way for this not to be true (given current rules).

I'm done. You are saying the same thing repeatedly but ignoring the fact that PA changes the rules.