6 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I mean, I understand and sympathize with the worthwhile endeavor of pointing out that things don't particularly make sense. I mean, I opened up an ISD and flipped it upside down and realized there was no WAY my CR90 was going to fit and was disappointed, and I am sure (hopefully) that I am not the only one.

Yes, we must learn to get beyond that.

Afterall,...

"Size matters not. Judge the [CR-90] by [its] size do you, hmm?" "And well you should not, for [its] ally is the [dice], and a powerful ally [they] are."

i want to repeat a challenge to armada "roleplayers": this is not a " mocking" challenge as i am a roleplayer and frequent GM myself, so this is an honest question of mine.

asssuming only the movies are canon *, find me a couple of seconds where ships are shown to damage ships.

#1. devastator in rogue one.

#2. a single nebulon trading some blows shooting from the broadside(lol) in return of the jedi. no damage us shown but at least IMPLIED.

next closest thing,

#3. venators in episode 3. cannons are shown to fire. no actual damage seems to be inflicted by ships to enemies, but at least IMPLIED.

episode 4, ISD vs cr90, the cr90 doesnt seem too damaged after being shot by TIEs and ISD. kudos for tractor beam.

REPEAT: WHERE IS THE DAMAGE? when are we shown that ships can actualy deal serious damage to one another, more than minor damage to prove they are anything other than carriers?

find me something. it is 8 movies full of space battles and i have found like 5-10 seconds of ships shooting at ships. come on.

* why only movies are canon: because unlike comics etc star wars movies are mainstream, and there is power in modern culture in being mainstream and not "geekish". they will change geekish , obscure stuff whenever they like. ergo, comics and novels are canon, but not ICONIC like movies.

right now, from an outsider's perspective, the except devastator(ONLY SHIP THAT HAS CONFIRMED DAMAGED SHIPS) ,ships could be armed with flashlights for all we know. so until we find evidence of what ships can do other than carrying starfighters who get all the glory, players that wnat big ships/guns struggle to convince me.

Movies are just that... movies... and it is constricted to a story and cinematic. We only see what is important to see, this has nothing to do with the Star Wars universe as a concept or other sources from which it draws such as books, animated series and so forth. Star Wars is a huge franchise.

It is all about imagining the world and every imaginative world will have limits and constraints that we are bound to, real or not real.

For me the game is not just a game it is a possible way of imagine the Star Wars universe and see the battles as they "might" unfold. The scale of the models are nothing that bothers me in the slightest because they are done on a relative scale, so a Nebulon-B is smaller than a Victory and a CR90 smaller than a Nebulon-B but the smaller ship is the larger the actual scale.

In the same way I have no problem imagining that a stand can represent more than one ship, at least for the smaller ones. It is also fairly easy to sort of estimate how many ships they "might" represent if you accept the Legendary as the base of your assumption. If your base of assumption is anything else you will obviously come to a different conclusion but the Legendary information are the best we have and the one I'm used to so the one I'm using.

To me it is sort of important to have something to refer to when I play since I always have a story as part of the game. I very rarely play pick up games. I either play a scenario or a campaign... a scenario is one person creating both sides of the conflict and somebody else playing it or at least someone else picking a side and then off you go. Rarely will points actually be important but the story the battle is telling more so since there always is a story and every battle or confrontation present its own quirks and tactical challenges.

So... I started this topic to explore how other Aramada players that like to delve into the story part of the game deal with these abstract story element of the game. This topic is not about game balance or why ship are as they are but rather how we can rationalize the way they are not change what they are.

@kikaze

The movies are NOT the only canon, sorry. Star Wars Rebels is officially as much canon as the movies, and there is plenty of ship on ship action and damage there.

8 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

@kikaze

The movies are NOT the only canon, sorry. Star Wars Rebels is officially as much canon as the movies, and there is plenty of ship on ship action and damage there.

but like i said, Rebels is not ICONIC merchandise. to put it bluntly, you can go to some random dumb bimbo, and she probably has watched star wars with her bf or something. there is power in that. star wars rebels? clone wars? only us nerds watch these. star wars is a fictional universe, but first and foremost it is a brand. and in this brand, you wont see the SSD or Home 1 firing a SINGLE shot.

ask anyone "tell me of that time when a ship blew up another ship in star wars". he is either a star wars geek or he remembers zero such instances.

so how can you say "ship guns should have an important role to play in star wars space battles", when in the most iconic battles(=films) no guns yield results?

In the SW movies the Empire has a distinct advantage in capital ships, while the strength of the Rebellion is in their individual fighter pilots and daring plans coming together against the odds. That is hard to capture in a fleet vs fleet game, and the weaker capital ships (primarily almost everything used by the Rebellion) had to get a boost in order to create a balanced game.

Some of that is still there, as with proper positioning the ISD is still the top dog 1 v 1 against any ship, and the Rebels have arguably better strength in their fighter squadrons than the Empire, but both strengths and weaknesses as seen in the films had to be toned down for the game format.

8 minutes ago, Joe Censored said:

In the SW movies the Empire has a distinct advantage in capital ships, while the strength of the Rebellion is in their individual fighter pilots and daring plans coming together against the odds. That is hard to capture in a fleet vs fleet game, and the weaker capital ships (primarily almost everything used by the Rebellion) had to get a boost in order to create a balanced game.

Some of that is still there, as with proper positioning the ISD is still the top dog 1 v 1 against any ship, and the Rebels have arguably better strength in their fighter squadrons than the Empire, but both strengths and weaknesses as seen in the films had to be toned down for the game format.

somehow i struggle to see a scene where ANY star destroyer causes damage to a ship with guns...

where is this strength in the films that you speak of? star destroyers seem like carriers to me...

does the SSD even have ANY guns? (ok, "intensify forward firepower" is a good indication, but it still damages nothing. no guns shoot on screen).

apparently, only devastator has guns.

EDIT: sorry, i wanna have an open mind.

lets say i bring some pretty brunette to a star wars film with a space battle. assume she has an open mind regarding geekish stuff, she just hasnt read comics etc herself. if i told her "star destroyers have powerful guns, they are not that dependent on TIE fighters to do the work", where is that shown?

Kikaze I see you're a squadron proponent....lol.

now that we have throughly derailed this thread.....

Just now, Kikaze said:

somehow i struggle to see a scene where ANY star destroyer causes damage to a ship with guns...

where is this strength in the films that you speak of? star destroyers seem like carriers to me...

does the SSD even have ANY guns? (ok, "intensify forward firepower" is a good indication, but it still damages nothing. no guns shoot on screen).

apparently, only devastator has guns.

The movies are not the only source of information and you know it. You also have to understand when the older movies where made and they did not have that much special effect tools to work with. Showing fighter combat was more effective and way more cinematic. If you look at the newer movies there are more ships firing at each other than in the older ones and for a reason, not because ships didn't have any guns or could destroy each other with them.

2 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

Kikaze I see you're a squadron proponent....lol.

now that we have throughly derailed this thread.....

NO. indeed i'd love for this game to include more gunnery. i loved galactica battles much more than star wars battles. and i believeit would further differentiate this game from x-wing and thus be healthier ("if all is decided in the squadron game, why not experience the squadron game in a fuller way in x-wing?" not an x-wing player myself, but just saying its a hard sell) but is it true to the films?

Aren't books canon? And there is some armada style fights going on? If you're going to limit all your resources from the OT, you're going to be very disappointed.

Just now, Kikaze said:

NO. indeed i'd love for this game to include more gunnery. i loved galactica battles much more than star wars battles. but is it true to the films?

I think the game captures the sources pretty well, squadrons are really important and you need to bring enough to repel the enemy or you will struggle. Seems like what the source materials in the Star Wars material say as well.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Aren't books canon? And there is some armada style fights going on? If you're going to limit all your resources from the OT, you're going to be very disappointed.

ok lets see rogue one. does the mc-75 have any guns? (honest question)

1 minute ago, Kikaze said:

ok lets see rogue one. does the mc-75 have any guns? (honest question)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MC75_cruiser

What I might not agree with is the Squadron Command level of 2 on GR75 and Gozanti flotillas, they are not really warranted and a problem in my opinion, but that is a matter for another discussion in another thread.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MC75_cruiser

too bad they didnt shoot in the film then.

i think the space battle scenes could be so much better. for me as a viewer, plus be more inspiring for the game as well.

3 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

NO. indeed i'd love for this game to include more gunnery. i loved galactica battles much more than star wars battles. and i believeit would further differentiate this game from x-wing and thus be healthier ("if all is decided in the squadron game, why not experience the squadron game in a fuller way in x-wing?" not an x-wing player myself, but just saying its a hard sell) but is it true to the films?

In RotJ, Lando tells Ackbar to close to point blank range. Ackbars response is telling....' At that range, we won't last long against those star destroyers!'

in that battle, both fleets were shooting at each other. Damage was being inflicted, but the primary action was on the heroes, who were on the ground or flying in fighters (or the Falcon), so the ship to ship battle was not emphasized.

Ackbars response however, fully indicates the ISDs could totally gun down the rebel fleet, and he knew it. The only reason that didn't happen was because Piett had strict orders from the Emperor NOT TO DO SO, as he wanted to use the Death Star. This is seen when he tells the fleet to 'hold here', and his fleet captains disbelieving response, 'we're not going to engage??'.

Just now, Kikaze said:

too bad they didnt shoot in the film then.

i think the space battle scenes could be so much better. for me as a viewer, plus be more inspiring for the game as well.

Ok well... If you want to think the Rebel command ship didn't fire a single shot in a desperate raid go right ahead.

4 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

What I might not agree with is the Squadron Command level of 2 on GR75 and Gozanti flotillas, they are not really warranted and a problem in my opinion, but that is a matter for another discussion in another thread.

EXCELLENT suggestion imho.

a 5-activation list will still be able to activate enough squadrons, but this time the quality of the "flotilla activations" would drop, since much of their sell is their actual ability to hurt you via squadrons (i.e. a flot and 2 bombers). you'd need more actual ships.

As well, from the Emperors throne room you can clearly see both fleets exchanging fire as he taunts Luke.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Ok well... If you want to think the Rebel command ship didn't fire a single shot in a desperate raid go right ahead.

i'm not trying to mock you! just saying, the way space battles are shown ; it so poorly captivates the action that we dont even see our iconic ships fire!

I just re watched the Battle at Scarif in Rouge one... you can see guns on the MC-75 and you can see Rebel capital ships firing at the Star-Destroyers in several clips... most of those things are just in the background because the move as is usual concentrate on the heroic fighters battle because that is what is Iconic and typical Star Wars and what people like to see.

1 minute ago, jorgen_cab said:

I just re watched the Battle at Scarif in Rouge one... you can see guns on the MC-75 and you can see Rebel capital ships firing at the Star-Destroyers in several clips... most of those things are just in the background because the move as is usual concentrate on the heroic fighters battle because that is what is Iconic and typical Star Wars and what people like to see.

29 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

somehow i struggle to see a scene where ANY star destroyer causes damage to a ship with guns...

where is this strength in the films that you speak of? star destroyers seem like carriers to me...

does the SSD even have ANY guns? (ok, "intensify forward firepower" is a good indication, but it still damages nothing. no guns shoot on screen).

apparently, only devastator has guns.

EDIT: sorry, i wanna have an open mind.

lets say i bring some pretty brunette to a star wars film with a space battle. assume she has an open mind regarding geekish stuff, she just hasnt read comics etc herself. if i told her "star destroyers have powerful guns, they are not that dependent on TIE fighters to do the work", where is that shown?

In Rogue One the Devastator ISD comes out of hyperspace and just wrecks the whole rebel fleet's capitals at close range with its forward firing arc, breaking Nebulan frigates in half and disabling an MC-75 in what couldn't be more than a few minutes. The rebel capitals had been softened up a little by TIE fighters, but the two ISD's orbiting the planet had been reluctant to engage the fleet so hadn't put much damage in directly.

In Return of the Jedi the star destroyers had purposely held back under orders from the Emperor so he could use Death Star II to one shot rebel capitals, so you don't really see any capital vs capital fleet action.

In Ep 3's opening scene you get to see a lot of close range capital vs capital fighting between the early star destroyers and the droid capitals.

In the movie you can clearly see the two orbiting Star Destroyers shooting at the rebel fleet but from a distance you can also see in the background in several clips of fighter combat how the rebel capital ships fire at the Star Destroyers. There is no real argument that the ships are not engaging each other as well as the fighters. It just seem like they are shooting each other from a relatively long distance.