If the bass power needs to be activated first then that changes the value of ebb/flow. The Failure will also be applied to allied characters checks unless you use the Magnitude upgrade... which reduces the number of Failures your applying.

So Disruptive Strike can provide a 1 for 1 return to a single target.

Ebb/Flow on the other hand can only provide 1 less than the Pips you spend, with a potential for 2 or more less to avoid impacting allies.

Disruptive strike hasn't lost its value IMHO.

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

If the bass power needs to be activated first then that changes the value of ebb/flow. The Failure will also be applied to allied characters checks unless you use the Magnitude upgrade... which reduces the number of Failures your applying.

So Disruptive Strike can provide a 1 for 1 return to a single target.

Ebb/Flow on the other hand can only provide 1 less than the Pips you spend, with a potential for 2 or more less to avoid impacting allies.

Disruptive strike hasn't lost its value IMHO.

That part of Ebb/Flow says "engaged opponents" rather than "all engaged characters" like in the basic power. So it seems that activating Magnitude is unnecessary there.

It seems clear to me (as in the case of Enhance and Influence, for example) that the devs' intent is not that one should be required to activate the base power before using the Control upgrades. So the way I think the power was meant to be interpreted, it's simply superior to Disruptive Strike.

If your interpretation is correct--which it may be, although if I were a betting man I wouldn't bet on it--I still would not consider Disruptive Strike to be worth purchasing given the many other advantages of investing 50 points in Ebb/Flow (all the Flow options that you gain, as well as the other Ebb options). You get 80 or 90% of the functionality of Disruptive Strike from Ebb/Flow, plus a lot of other abilities besides.

I'm AFB but doesn't the long description say "to any affected characters checks"

5 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Here's another balance question about Ebb/Flow:

It looks an awful lot like the Control: Failure/Success upgrade has put the Shien master's Disruptive Strike talent out of business. The only time I can think of that Disruptive Strike could possibly be better is if the enemy you target decides to take a turn off from making checks--but that's going to be a pretty rare occurrence. Am I missing something here?

(If I'm not missing something, I would be tempted to disallow the Strength upgrade to the Failure/Success ability, just so that Shien Experts have an incentive to take Disruptive Strike.)

Disruptive Strike works specifically against the target's next combat check in this encounter, so it works well in conjunction with effects that might Stagger the opponent, or with situations that might render him unable to attack for a round or more.

The Ebb effect is quite different; it only affects characters in range (either engaged or at short range) and only until the end of your next turn. All that affected characters need to do is move out of the range of effect. And it also requires that an action be spent, up front, just to commit Force Rating to the effect, whereas Disruptive Strike will just work without first committing any dice.

It's true that both the talent and the Force power can have the same effect in a given situation, and that the Ebb effect is a cheaper way of getting to that effect; but that only really matters if you're just trying to beeline that effect, and if you don't particularly care about what abilities you pick up along the way.

In any case, Ebb is different from Disruptive strike. Probably better than the talent in general, just like Influence vs. the Overwhelm Emotions talent. But it is different, so it doesn't quite render the talent obsolete IMO.

11 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

One of the arguments that has been put forward is that Ebb/Flow makes certain other Talents and Powers obsolete. Disruptive Strike could be one of them.

In a system which offers you for literally everything you can do multiple ways to approach, I doubt that obsolete is the correct word to describe this.

8 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I'm AFB but doesn't the long description say "to any affected characters checks"

The exact wording is just "engaged opponents."

6 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

The Ebb effect is quite different; it only affects characters in range (either engaged or at short range) and only until the end of your next turn. All that affected characters need to do is move out of the range of effect.

Another interesting rules interpretation question here: Does the power affect characters who are engaged at the moment the power is activated , even if they disengage later in the turn that follows? Or does it only affect them while they remain engaged ? If the latter is correct, you're right that the targets can just move out of range of the effect, which is a big enough disadvantage that I agree Disruptive Strike is still worthwhile. I'd interpreted the power the other way, but I think I will now interpret it your way until I hear otherwise, because my way of reading it made it too powerful.

13 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Here's another balance question about Ebb/Flow:

It looks an awful lot like the Control: Failure/Success upgrade has put the Shien master's Disruptive Strike talent out of business. The only time I can think of that Disruptive Strike could possibly be better is if the enemy you target decides to take a turn off from making checks--but that's going to be a pretty rare occurrence. Am I missing something here?

Yes, I agree. Disruptive Strike is rather obsolete now in my view. Further, now anyone can effectively 'Disruptive Strike', not just Shien Masters.

13 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

If the bass power needs to be activated first then that changes the value of ebb/flow. The Failure will also be applied to allied characters checks unless you use the Magnitude upgrade... which reduces the number of Failures your applying.

I don't read anything in the Ebb/Flow power that states a Force Pip must be spent in the basic power before pips can be spent in the upgrades. Remember, a Force Power always activates, regardless of the number of FP spent.

1 hour ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I don't read anything in the Ebb/Flow power that states a Force Pip must be spent in the basic power before pips can be spent in the upgrades. Remember, a Force Power always activates, regardless of the number of FP spent.

Force power Control upgrades often change the way that Force powers work, sometimes at a fundamental level (the Influence "mind trick" upgrade is an example of this). I agree with your reading.

Some control upgrades (e.g. the Bind "move" upgrade, the Move "hurl" or "rip secured objects" upgrades, etc) simply upgrade the basic power, and thus need to spend Force Points to activate the power before actually using the Control upgrade. Usually it's pretty clear. I think it is in this case, as well.

3 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Another interesting rules interpretation question here: Does the power affect characters who are engaged at the moment the power is activated , even if they disengage later in the turn that follows? Or does it only affect them while they remain engaged ? If the latter is correct, you're right that the targets can just move out of range of the effect, which is a big enough disadvantage that I agree Disruptive Strike is still worthwhile. I'd interpreted the power the other way, but I think I will now interpret it your way until I hear otherwise, because my way of reading it made it too powerful.

Yeah my line of thought was that the trigger is "checks made," and therefore it depends on where a character is when they make that check. So if the Force user makes a combined Ebb power check on round 1 and there's no one engaged with him, but then he is mobbed by 4 rivals and they all try to attack him with melee weapons, then they all get affected by his Ebb ability as soon as they make the check, because they are engaged, they are making checks, and it hasn't gotten to "the end of the user's next turn" yet.

So in essence it seems to be kind of like an "aura" ability.

They can just move out of the power they have to remain engaged in order for it to work would be the correct ruling, because its a localized effect around the Jedi that does not move.

54 minutes ago, Decorus said:

They can just move out of the power they have to remain engaged in order for it to work would be the correct ruling, because its a localized effect around the Jedi that does not move.

I'd say its the opposite; there is no language that states the target has to remain in the area of effect like it does with other powers, such as Bind or Suppress. So once a target is affected, it remains affected regardless of range.

It requires them to be engaged to work. If they are not engaged then it doesn't work. Because the effect does not activate immediately they have to be engaged for the full duration for the power to work.

Basically if they aren't engaged anymore the power fails. Otherwise its extremely easy to abuse the power which is of course your goal.

Until you get the short range upgrade

25 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I'd say its the opposite; there is no language that states the target has to remain in the area of effect like it does with other powers, such as Bind or Suppress. So once a target is affected, it remains affected regardless of range.

Notice that the target of the power, unlike Bind, is the Force user himself. So Bind isn't really an apt comparison.

But Suppress is interesting. Suppress, the basic power, is a "field of effect." But the Ebb/Flow Basic power is over and done inside an action. It's only when we get to the Control upgrades that we start to see the "until the end of the user's next turn" timing issue.

So with the timing issue comes a spatial issue: "All checks made by engaged opponents" seems pretty clear. Since the target of the power is the Force user himself, not his opponents; and since the effect lasts until the user's next turn; it seems appropriate to me to rule that it does matter if an NPC moves into/out of the area of effect. However, if the target of the of power had been "all engaged opponents," then yes what you're saying would make the most sense. But I just don't see it for this control upgrade.

TL;DR, the test isn't "Are you an opponent making a check, and were you engaged with Mr. Ebb during his last turn?" The test should be, "Are you an opponent making a check, and are you currently engaged with Mr. Ebb?" That (IMO) is the plain reading of the rules.

19 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Otherwise its extremely easy to abuse the power which is of course your goal.

Well, that goes without saying.

Not in the way your thinking he doesn't like the power so he's looking for reasons to disallow it.

Its like his you can take it as a starting character while completely ignoring how useless doing so would make your character.

1 minute ago, Decorus said:

Not in the way your thinking he doesn't like the power so he's looking for reasons to disallow it.

Its like his you can take it as a starting character while completely ignoring how useless doing so would make your character.

Ah okay my bad. I thought you were making a joke

I'm excited to get this PvP match going on. @DaverWattra I have now crafted 7 completely characters and I can't choose between them...I have sickness. I think it comes from ever only being a GM

See this is why I think you need to activate the basic power of Ebb first. When you cause them to suffer Strain you effectively put a mark on them that says "you my friend also suck at making skill checks for the next round!"

On interesting outcome from it though that won't show up in your grudge match is the initiative order wizardry you could have. A character could act first in the round, give opponents bad dice, then wait until the end of the next round to act again. In this way the opposition suffers the effects twice for only a single check, very useful if your goal is triggering Improved Parry.

23 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

On interesting outcome from it though that won't show up in your grudge match is the initiative order wizardry you could have. A character could act first in the round, give opponents bad dice, then wait until the end of the next round to act again. In this way the opposition suffers the effects twice for only a single check, very useful if your goal is triggering Improved Parry.

I love this aspect of the dynamic initiative system!

On that note, maybe we should make the duel a 2v2 instead of 1v1

So with regards to using Ebb/Flow to add failure to a combat check vs. Shien Expert's Disruptive Strike...

One thing to consider is that Disruptive Strike applies to the target's next combat check during the encounter. So whether the target makes a combat check the next round or three rounds from now, as long as it's in the same encounter, they still apply those automatic failures. Ebb/Flow on the other hand only lasts until the end of the next turn, and if the target decides to not make a skill check, or use an ability that doesn't require a check (or has such a low difficulty that the automatic failures won't amount to much, such as Scathing Tirade).

There's also the matter that as you're spending XP to get to Disruptive Strike, you're picking up talents that add greater functionality to your PC. Street Smarts is fairly situational, but Shien Technique, Grit, and Saber Throw are certainly worthwhile. Ebb/Flow on the other hand, until you've boosted up your Force Rating, you're buying upgrades that have a chance of not working (if you roll the wrong color pips on your Force dice) and that until you've bought up your Force Rating (costing even more XP) means you'll have to choose between the automatic failure(s), automatic threat(s), or strain damange

So I wouldn't say that Ebb/Flow is unilaterally better or makes Distruptive Strike obsolete. It's just simply a different way to do something similar.

That being said, I could see a combination of Ebb/Flow and Counterstrike with a sufficiently high Force Rating being quite nasty, as Ebb would let you inflict both auto-fails and auto-threat, making it more likely your opponent misses with two threat, thus triggering Counterstrike so that your next Lightsaber (Cunning) check is even better.

9 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That being said, I could see a combination of Ebb/Flow and Counterstrike with a sufficiently high Force Rating being quite nasty, as Ebb would let you inflict both auto-fails and auto-threat, making it more likely your opponent misses with two threat, thus triggering Counterstrike so that your next Lightsaber (Cunning) check is even better.

But at that point you probably would have been better just using Flow to improve your own attack.

Edit: except you didn't actually get hit with the Ebb option, so yes I guess that is better

8 hours ago, Decorus said:

It requires them to be engaged to work. If they are not engaged then it doesn't work. Because the effect does not activate immediately they have to be engaged for the full duration for the power to work.

Basically if they aren't engaged anymore the power fails. Otherwise its extremely easy to abuse the power which is of course your goal.

There is nothing in the wording of this power to suggest that once an affected target moves out of engaged ranged (assuming no range upgrade was used) that the power no longer affects them. There are several powers that do have such wording. Consider the duration upgrades for Battle Meditation and Bind; these both explicitly say the effect ends of the target moves (or is moved) out of range. Yet Ebb/Flow does not. So are you asserting that moving out of range would nullify the effect of the upgrades to Ebb/Flow against a target?

But honestly most of the time when this power is used engaged range, it is because the affected target wants to be at engaged range; that is, it wants to be in melee with the Force User in question. So I am not sure it will matter as much.

7 hours ago, Decorus said:

Not in the way your thinking he doesn't like the power so he's looking for reasons to disallow it.

Its like his you can take it as a starting character while completely ignoring how useless doing so would make your character.

Assuming this comment is directed at me, since I have mentioned on this thread I won't allow Ebb/Flow in my campaign for now. It is off base. I am not "looking" for reasons to disallow it. I have clearly stated my position and provided facts. These facts could be wrong and I am open to being proven such. Some comments here have even done so. As of yet, I still feel Ebb/Flow to be a very cool thematic power (I am really looking forward to that duel by the way; maybe I should GM it!), but I feel that mechanically it suffers from much of what this system has suffered from recently; poorly vetted and written powers indicative of a product line that is getting the short shrift on company resources. I mean just look at all the rules questions and discussions we are having here? Lots of questions, no definitive answers

As for the next part I have no idea what it is supposed to mean. The example I gave was a knight level character who took Ebb/Flow through the various upgrades plus a force rating increase. Why exactly would this character be useless?

Well its basic math.

You get a total of 270 xp with a human knight level character.

Ebb and flow will cost you 110 xp

Now you can get to a +1 force rating in 95 or so xp.

Thats 205 xp leaving you with

65 xp for stats and skills (You know the thing you need for Ebb/Flow to be effective)

So basically you have a one trick pony who can't even effectively use the trick its bad character design for a knight level character.

When you show up on the forums going I've banned this power from my campaign and I think its badly written power creep thats indicative of bias.

Your not looking for people to convince you otherwise you have already made up your mind you just came here for validation. Now your upset that someone called you out on it.