1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Of course, if said character has the higher ranks of Mechanics 9and the Attribute to go with it) combined with an Ebb/Flow check, he'd really nail the check.

He'd get lots of symbols, but the non-force guy would have a lot of XP not spent on Ebb/Flow, Force Rating, etc, to throw at relevant talents, so they'd still get better outcomes with (and probably have more ways to apply) the skill.

By the time the force user catches up to that the non-force guy would have something else(s) they're fully specialized in and you're talking about game-breaking XP totals anyway.

1 minute ago, Garran said:

He'd get lots of symbols, but the non-force guy would have a lot of XP not spent on Ebb/Flow, Force Rating, etc, to throw at relevant talents, so they'd do better with the skill.

By the time the force user catches up to that the non-force guy would have something else they're fully specialized in and you're talking about game-breaking XP totals anyway.

Well, technically there are no "Game breaking" XP levels.

Question: the way I read the power is that you must first activate the base power before spending Pips to add S/A/F/T. This means not only a delay but you add 1 less than other methods such as Enhance.

No, because activating the basic power doesn't require any pips be spent. They *may* spend a force point to recover one strain, but they don't have to.

But that's the same as any Force Power (read Move for example). It's specifically called out in the Force chapter that unless otherwise stated then you must activate the basic power first.

An example of when this isn't the case is with Enhance. The wording of upgrades is "when making x skill check add Force Dice..." In the Ebb/Flow power the upgrades are worded to follow a pattern of other upgrades which requires the base power to be activated first. They match the wording of Protect/unleash upgrades for example.

Again, the base power has no pip cost to activate, unlike Protect/Unleash, which specifically requires that you spend a certain number of pips to activate it, and in fact Ebb/Flow uses the same wording as Enhance for the basic power. You roll the dice and may choose to spend pips thus and so - but you've got a successful activation regardless of whether you spend any (or even if you somehow don't generate any).

It seems to me that just the strain-related initial 20-point version of Ebb/Flow (basic power + first strength upgrade) has some rather remarkable interactions with other abilities.

--The most obvious is with Parry/Reflect. If you time your use of Flow in combat, you will never run out of strain to power Parry/Reflect. This significantly improves the Soresu Defender spec. It also makes lightsaber fighters better than they used to be, in comparison with non-Force using combatants.

--The interaction of Ebb with Makashi Flourish is really something. You can add your Ebb dice to a Makashi Flourish roll. With FR 2 or higher and good lightsaber skill, you can inflict a murderous amount of strain, dropping many opponents in one round. Fortunately this can only be used once per encounter!

--With all this in mind, I can see lightsaber fights ending up dominated by trying to use Ebb to prevent your opponent from using Parry, using Flow to counter this use of Ebb, etc etc. But I haven't seen how Ebb/Flow works in a real game yet, so all this is quite speculative. Might play through a lightsaber fight or two with this power involved to see how it proceeds.

9 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

--With all this in mind, I can see lightsaber fights ending up dominated by trying to use Ebb to prevent your opponent from using Parry, using Flow to counter this use of Ebb, etc etc. But I haven't seen how Ebb/Flow works in a real game yet, so all this is quite speculative. Might play through a lightsaber fight or two with this power involved to see how it proceeds.

Dood! We should have a build-off & PbP duel.

2 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

--The most obvious is with Parry/Reflect. If you time your use of Flow in combat, you will never run out of strain to power Parry/Reflect. This significantly improves the Soresu Defender spec. It also makes lightsaber fighters better than they used to be, in comparison with non-Force using combatants.

This still relies on the PC rolling light side pips, especially if they've only got a Force Rating of 1. And since it's only one combat check, that means at most you'd get back 2 strain each round, when you could very well be spending far more strain depending on how often you're using Parry/Reflect each round. In a one-on-one fight it's not so bad, as you're only losing 1 strain every round instead of 3 (assuming you roll enough Force points to activate the base power + strength upgrade), but as the opposition begins to stack up, the higher your strain spending, especially if you're not able to quickly wheedle down the opposition fast enough.

Getting a Force Rating to 2 or even 3 helps alleviate that, since it ups the chances of rolling the necessary 2 light side pips each round, but that's also quite an investment of XP for a PC that starts out with a LS Form spec, as you're looking at a 2nd spec on top of the XP costs to reach Force Rating.

I don't disagree that it's a boost to a LS Form PC, but at the lower end of things it's not always a reliable one, so GMs shouldn't get worried about this power possibly making a 'saber-monkey character be any more powerful than they already are.

I think the awesome sauce comes in with adding Threat to those around you. If you can add a couple of Threat to every attacker then the chances of triggering Improved Parry or Reflect are much better. So a Defender or Dualist with a defensive weapon or shield, some Threat for everyone, lots of Parry and possibly Reflect... you could be hitting enemies 3 or 4 times a round. Strain is definitely an issue, probably need a second spec that's good at recovery

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

Strain is definitely an issue, probably need a second spec that's good at recovery

Or you could take occasional breaks from using Ebb to use Flow for Strain recovery. It's a built-in answer to the problem.

So normally this works as part of a continuing series of the same skill checks, how does the normal roll force dice with every roll versus the control upgrade allowing you to commit dice for the remainder of encounter?

Also does this stack with hawkbat swoop? Can I both take my fr3 and roll it to generate advantages from hawkbat, and roll force dice again as part of a ebb/flow check?

What about saber throw?

6 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Dood! We should have a build-off & PbP duel.

I'm down. Were you thinking of trying an Ebb/Flow-based build against a different lightsaber build?

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I don't disagree that it's a boost to a LS Form PC, but at the lower end of things it's not always a reliable one, so GMs shouldn't get worried about this power possibly making a 'saber-monkey character be any more powerful than they already are.

I agree that you need FR 2+ to make it work. Seems like it's a noticeable boost to a lightsaber defender at low levels (because you'll still run out of strain a lot slower) and a very powerful boost starting around what I think of as mid level, once you've gotten to the bottom row of two specs.

--

Another thing to keep in mind here is that no opposed roll is required to use Ebb against an enemy. You can inflict strain (or add threat/failure) without giving your target any chance to resist. And you can do so while also making an attack. This aspect of the power may require house-ruling, although of course I'd like to see how it plays before deciding that.

8 hours ago, TheShard said:

So normally this works as part of a continuing series of the same skill checks, how does the normal roll force dice with every roll versus the control upgrade allowing you to commit dice for the remainder of encounter?

Also does this stack with hawkbat swoop? Can I both take my fr3 and roll it to generate advantages from hawkbat, and roll force dice again as part of a ebb/flow check?

What about saber throw?

Good questions!

Firstly, just as clarification, the Ebb/Flow Control Upgrade at the bottom of the power tree only allows you to commit a single Force die...it's not multiple dice. Edit: forgot that power effects have to specifically say so if they aren't meant to be activated multiple times!

That being said: as a general rule, when you commit a number of Force Dice, your Force Rating is lowered by that number; and therefore, those Force Dice cannot be used to fuel other Force powers or Force talents. E.g., if you have FR 3 and you commit 1 Force die to Sense's ongoing effect, you now effectively have a FR of 2. So a die that is committed to Ebb/Flow isn't eligible for use with Saber Throw, or Hawk Bat Swoop, or any other talent or power that requires Force Dice equal to your Force rating.

Similarly, you wouldn't roll your Force dice twice as part of a single action. Those Force dice are representative of your total Force power. So you can't (for example) double up your Force dice with Overwhelm Emotions & the Influence "skills" control upgrade. You can think of your Force Dice as a resource to spend; just like each success, advantage, and Force pip; just like your option to spend a Destiny Point for the action. Once they're rolled as part of the check, that's your Force abilities doing their thing for your action.

In regards to the interaction with Ebb/Flow and skill checks that have other Force dice present, however, you might want to ask a rules question as to how those work. Like, say you commit one of your Force Dice to Ebb/Flow, and for the remainder of the encounter you must add that Force Die to all skill checks. But if you have 2 more Force Dice uncommitted out of a total FR 3, and you want to do a Saber Throw or Hawk Bat Swoop, then do you throw all the dice together and just choose which Force die is the one for Ebb/Flow? Or (unlikely) does Ebb/Flow now make all your Force dice behave solely as Success/Advantage + possible Strain & Conflict? Or, possibly, does one effect supercede the other, and your Ebb/Flow die just sits there like a lemon while your remaining Force Dice go to town?

An interesting conundrum you've raised here.

19 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I'm down. Were you thinking of trying an Ebb/Flow-based build against a different lightsaber build?

Well, that sounds fun too! The question was raised about how Ebb/Flow might work if two Force users were each utilizing it against each other, which was what originally piqued my interest. But I'm happy to do whatever What do we think, maybe double-Knight Level? 300 XP & 18000 credits (or double-bladed lightsaber, or two basic lightsabers, or 9000 credits & a basic lightsaber)?

Edit: obviously if we're talking about a lightsaber duel, a minimum of 1 lightsaber-type weapon should be observed

3 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Firstly, just as clarification, the Ebb/Flow Control Upgrade at the bottom of the power tree only allows you to commit a single Force die...it's not multiple dice.

Are you sure? Usually when there is a limit it is explicitly called out, and the Devs have ruled you can commit multiple dice in similar situations (the Enhance upgrades come to mind).

3 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Another thing to keep in mind here is that no opposed roll is required to use Ebb against an enemy. You can inflict strain (or add threat/failure) without giving your target any chance to resist. And you can do so while also making an attack. This aspect of the power may require house-ruling, although of course I'd like to see how it plays before deciding that.

What about the rules on pp 280 & 281 F&D for Combined Force Power checks (which Ebb/Flow falls into) which reads:

"Unless specifically stated otherwise, the character must generate enough [FP] to activate the Force talent or Force power's basic power (or appropriate control upgrades) and must generate at least one uncancelled success for the check to succeed."

This wording would strongly suggest that if you fail the underlying skill check, the Ebb/Flow power does not have any effect.

3 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

In regards to the interaction with Ebb/Flow and skill checks that have other Force dice present, however, you might want to ask a rules question as to how those work. Like, say you commit one of your Force Dice to Ebb/Flow, and for the remainder of the encounter you must add that Force Die to all skill checks. But if you have 2 more Force Dice uncommitted out of a total FR 3, and you want to do a Saber Throw or Hawk Bat Swoop, then do you throw all the dice together and just choose which Force die is the one for Ebb/Flow? Or (unlikely) does Ebb/Flow now make all your Force dice behave solely as Success/Advantage + possible Strain & Conflict? Or, possibly, does one effect supercede the other, and your Ebb/Flow die just sits there like a lemon while your remaining Force Dice go to town?

I would rule that if you are taking an action that is a Force Power Check (e.g. Talent or Force Power that lets you add your FP to rolls), you are not also able to make this check an 'Ebb/Flow' check. As such, your FR would be 2 in this scenario due to the commitment of 1 FR to Ebb/Flow. You would only use the abilities of Hawk Bat Swoop or Saber Throw; you would not have the option of also using the Ebb/Flow effects on the roll.

3 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Well, that sounds fun too! The question was raised about how Ebb/Flow might work if two Force users were each utilizing it against each other, which was what originally piqued my interest. But I'm happy to do whatever What do we think, maybe double-Knight Level? 300 XP & 18000 credits (or double-bladed lightsaber, or two basic lightsabers, or 9000 credits & a basic lightsaber)?

Edit: obviously if we're talking about a lightsaber duel, a minimum of 1 lightsaber-type weapon should be observed

How about this: I'll make an Ebb/Flow-based build, and you can do whatever lightsaber combat build you want, Ebb/Flow or not. I'm interested to see how two Ebb/Flow characters face off against each other, but I'm equally interested to see how it works against other builds. I agree to your terms vis a vis the credits and XP. Looking forward to it

20 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

What about the rules on pp 280 & 281 F&D for Combined Force Power checks (which Ebb/Flow falls into) which reads:

"Unless specifically stated otherwise, the character must generate enough [FP] to activate the Force talent or Force power's basic power (or appropriate control upgrades) and must generate at least one uncancelled success for the check to succeed."

This wording would strongly suggest that if you fail the underlying skill check, the Ebb/Flow power does not have any effect.

Interesting point. It seems to me that the exact wording here is perhaps not to be trusted, though (although I'm genuinely unsure about this). Would you say that if I make an Athletics check adding Force dice for Enhance, and I end up rolling all Dark Side pips and don't generate any FP, I should fail the check even if I rolled a net success with my skill dice? That seems perverse to me, but it would follow from the exact wording of the passage you quote. (Or for that matter, if I roll a skill check with Flow and don't generate FP, should that mean that I fail the skill check?? If so, using Flow with a character with low FR is going to be extremely risky.)

2 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Interesting point. It seems to me that the exact wording here is perhaps not to be trusted, though (although I'm genuinely unsure about this). Would you say that if I make an Athletics check adding Force dice for Enhance, and I end up rolling all Dark Side pips and don't generate any FP, I should fail the check even if I rolled a net success with my skill dice? That seems perverse to me, but it would follow from the exact wording of the passage you quote. (Or for that matter, if I roll a skill check with Flow and don't generate FP, should that mean that I fail the skill check?? If so, using Flow with a character with low FR is going to be extremely risky.)

Yeah, I would 100% agree with you, I am generally unsure too. I did ask the Devs on this one a few days back, we'll see what they say.

I think the argument I would make regarding your example of Enhance is you don't need to use any FP to actually activate the power. If you want to use zero pips you can and the power still "works" because you don't need at least 1 pip to fuel it.

Hey, I'm reading through that upgrade and realising something. You don't have to flip Destiny to use the "other side of the Force*"... but you have to use the Dark Side if it's rolled! That's cool, crazy and powerful if you don't mind the conflict.

I also wonder what happens to a DS Force User who activates this upgrade, should it change so that LS costs a strain and DS costs a Conflict for them?

I would definitely agree you could commit more than one die to this power too, the wording is similar to the Enhance power and that's been clarified as being able to be activated multiple times in a single Action.

Also of note is that the Control upgrades for Failure and Threat both use the wording: " When making a combined Ebb power check, may spend [O] to add [F] to any affected characters checks..." This must mean you need to activate the base power first since you need to affect targets. The only way to affect them is to successfully use the base power. It's the same as the wording in many of the Heal/Harm and Protect/Unleash powers

* by "other side of the Force" I mean if you're LS you don't flip a DP to use DS Pips, if you're DS you don't flip a DP to us LS Pips.

Suffice to say that if/when Order 66 podcast has a developer on their show to go over Disciples of Harmony, there will probably be lots of questions asked regarding Ebb/Flow!

37 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

I think the argument I would make regarding your example of Enhance is you don't need to use any FP to actually activate the power. If you want to use zero pips you can and the power still "works" because you don't need at least 1 pip to fuel it.

Maybe that was what they mean in the rules by, 'A Force power is always "successfully" activated, even if the check does not generate any Force points to spend on the power.' Just to remove any doubt in those kinds of cases.

I never thought of it that way before.

10 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I also wonder what happens to a DS Force User who activates this upgrade, should it change so that LS costs a strain and DS costs a Conflict for them?

I would definitely agree you could commit more than one die to this power too, the wording is similar to the Enhance power and that's been clarified as being able to be activated multiple times in a single Action.

1. Given the balanced nature of the Force dice, I'd say this is definitely balanced, setting-appropriate, and consistent with the larger ruleset. It'd probably be fine if you just ran it as written to keep it simple, but it'd probably be ideal to do it the way you suggest, even if just thematically.

2. You're right—the upgrade doesn't say anything about not being able to be activated multiple times, which means that it can be. I forgot they flipped that rule around during the Beta test!

11 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Maybe that was what they mean in the rules by, 'A Force power is always "successfully" activated, even if the check does not generate any Force points to spend on the power.' Just to remove any doubt in those kinds of cases.

I never thought of it that way before.

It can come up with Heal pretty frequently at FR1. If the character doesn't get an LS pips, no healing takes place but the power was still used so it counts against the 5-use limit of Heal & Stimpacks the target can benefit from in a day.